Sharp pyro developer that gives full film speed

[mcfactor]

Hi,

As the title suggests, I am looking for a pyro developer that is at least as sharp as Rodinal and/or Beutler's, but give full film speed.

Has anyone used the Pyrocat-P or -M varieties (I found old threads about it from when it was first announced, but none since '06)?

I have tried pyrocat HD and, while I like it, I had to rate my film at half the speed, which I would rather not do.

I just moved up to 8x10 and am doing a lot of contact printing, mostly on graded paper.

I like my current developer, but am curious about pyro.

Before you tell me to try it for myself, I am. I ordered a bunch of chemicals, but wanted to get some ideas as well.

Thanks,

Noah

[sanking]

Hi,

As the title suggests, I am looking for a pyro developer that is at least as sharp as Rodinal and/or Beutler's, but give full film speed.

Has anyone used the Pyrocat-P or -M varieties (I found old threads about it from when it was first announced, but none since '06)?

I have tried pyrocat HD and, while I like it, I had to rate my film at half the speed, which I would rather not do.

I just moved up to 8x10 and am doing a lot of contact printing, mostly on graded paper.

I like my current developer, but am curious about pyro.

Before you tell me to try it for myself, I am. I ordered a bunch of chemicals, but wanted to get some ideas as well.

Thanks,

Noah

Noah,

I have done a lot of careful comparisons of Pyrocat-HD with standard developers like D76 and there should be some slight *gain* of film speed with Pyrocat versus D76, not loss of film speed. Compared to Xtol there would be some slight speed gain with Xtol.

Pyrocat-M was replaced by Pyrocat-MC which is sold in Glycol kit by Photographers Formlary. Pyrocat-P is an excellent developer but would have to be mixed from scratch. My experience is that Pyrocat-MC gives about the same film speed as Pyrocat-HD, Pyrocat-P gives slightly less (about 1/5 stop) less film speed.

Generally speaking film speed is determined primarily by 1) the film itself and 2) the method of agitation, and secondarily, by 3) the developer. Developers that contain phenidone, like Pyrocat-HD, generally give a slight increase in film speed compared to the standard D76.

Sandy King

[Jay DeFehr]

Noah,

510-Pyro is a highly concentrated, single solution pyrogallol-based developer that is simply mixed with water to make a working solution. 510-Pyro gives full film speed, or a little better, and is very sharp. Here's a link to the blog, with some images and info from users and myself:

http://pyrostains.blogspot.com/

While 510-Pyro is very sharp, it's not the sharpest staining developer. The sharpest developer I know is Hypercat. Hypercat is also among the simplest developers, containing only catechol as the single developing agent, a tiny amount of ascorbic acid as a preservative, and sodium carbonate. Hypercat is made up in two solutions; the A solution containing catechol and ascorbic acid in glycol, and the B solution is a 20% sodium carbonate solution. Both solutions have very, very long shelf lives. If a more concentrated B solution is desired, potassium carbonate can be substituted without affecting the working properties of the developer. The Hypercat blog can be found here:

http://hypercatacutancedeveloper.blogspot.com/

And some beautiful images made with Hypercat by Ryota Itoh can be found here:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=hypercat&w=98524799%40N00

Whatever developer you use, I hope you enjoy yourself, and make satisfying images. Good luck!

[Ken Lee]

"I have tried pyrocat HD and, while I like it, I had to rate my film at half the speed, which I would rather not do."

Could you briefly describe how you determine film speed ?

[mdm]

Try minimal agitation with Pyrocat. It works a treat. Hard to underexpose.

[D. Bryant]

And some beautiful images made with Hypercat by Ryota Itoh can be found here:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=hypercat&w=98524799%40N00



He also lists Pyrocat-HD as the developer for some of his work as well.

Don Bryant

[mdm]

Please do not start another developer flame war. Really, who cares.

Everyone has a right to express their own opinion and we are all big enough to tolerate that.

The question was about film speed.

[Jay DeFehr]

Yes, Don, Mr. Itoh also used Pyrocat HD. I think I linked his work with Hypercat, but please excuse me if there were also images made with Pyrocat HD. I only meant to provide examples of work made with Hypercat, and not to cast aspersions on any of the Pyrocats.

[D. Bryant]

Yes, Don, Mr. Itoh also used Pyrocat HD. I think I linked his work with Hypercat, but please excuse me if there were also images made with Pyrocat HD. I only meant to provide examples of work made with Hypercat, and not to cast aspersions on any of the Pyrocats.

I didn't mean to imply that you did. My comments were really meant to point out this fact to the OP of this thread, the point being that there are quite a few modern pyro formulas that work very well as evidenced by Mr. Itoh's work.

Cheers,

Don

[Donald Miller]

The sharpest pyro that I ever used was ABC Pyro. It doesn't support full film speed with most films however. In addition to being extremely sharp it also has sufficient grain that it is noticeable at a 11X14 print from an 4X5 negative using a condensor enlarger.

In my experience there are trade-offs with most film developers.

[sanking]

It should also be mentioned that sharpness with any given developer is highly dependent on both dilution and type of agitation. Developers like D76 that have a lot of sulfite in them become sharper when diluted 1:1 or 1:2 because there is less solvent action. Most pyro type developers become sharper with higher dilutions because of local developer exhaustion. And most developers of all types are usually sharper when used with reduced agitation methods (minimal, semi-stand, stand, etc.).

Technically speaking any comparison of sharpness of any two developers should be qualified by noting the dilution and type of agitation.

Sandy King

[Jay DeFehr]

Sandy,

You're right, of course; as many variables as possible should be controlled for in any comparison, but some developers are more comparable than others. For instance; what would be comparable dilutions of D-76 and Pyrocat HD? It's really an apples and oranges comparison. Still, there's only so much sharpness one can eek out of D-76, and it will never be as sharp as Pyrocat HD, whatever the dilution or agitation, so one can state categorically that Pyrocat HD is sharper than D-76, because they are from different classes of developers. When comparing developers that are more comparable, like Pyrocat HD and Pyrocat MC, one can say Pyrocat MC is sharper, and it should be understood that the comparison should be made at similar dilutions and agitation schemes. If there is some condition under which Pyrocat HD is sharper than Pyrocat MC, it would be the exception to the rule, and worthy of special mention.

[mcfactor]

Thanks for responding.

I have been determining film speed by examining the shadow detail. It seemed to me that with Pyrocat HD at 1:1:100 with 10 sec agitation every minute, there was about 1/2 to 1 stop less speed (depending on which film) than with Rodinal 1:100 or Beutlers 1:1:10.

I am looking for a a pyro developer that I can get full speed with and is as sharp as what I use now.

And, yes, I am looking for generalities. I realize that most developer film combos can be massaged into functioning similarly. But in general, certain developers give more speed and sharpness than others.

I was curious about the different pyrocat variations in regard to these factors. Is there one that was noticably sharper? Is ABC pyro that much sharper than the others? Is it silly to worry about sharpness between the pyrocat -HD, -MC, and -P versions? If so, which gives the best film speed?

Thanks

[Ken Lee]

I have been determining film speed by examining the shadow detail.

I don't mean to be a pest, just trying to help.

Do you use any kind of regular measurements, of follow a methodology like the Zone System or BTZS (Beyond The Zone System) ?

[mcfactor]

No pestering Ken, thanks for trying to help. I do use a basic version of the zone system, I decide what I want zone 2-3 to be and expose for it, then expand or contract the development if the highlights fall in the wrong place. I know its not as exact as it should be, however it has worked so far:)

[sanking]

D76 is the standard by which all developers are compared for both film speed and sharpness. Over the years I have made literally hundreds of film tests using sensitometry (EG&G sensitometer) and carefully controlled developing. I can assure you that there is no loss of film speed with any of the Pyrocat versions compared to D76. To the contrary, there is actually a small speed gain of about 1/5 of a stop. The only standard developer that consistently gives more film speed than D76, and Pyrocat, is Xtol. In looking at a test I did a few years ago with Ilford FP4+ film speed was 100+ with D76 1:1, 125++ with Pyrocat-HD, and 160 with Xtol. These figures are typical for other films I have tested with these developers, including Delta 100, Tmax-100, Tmax-400 (TMY), TRI-X and HP5+. I have not tested either Rodinal or Beutlers but doubt very much that either of them give more film speed than D76.

Film speed is fairly easy to test and assuming good technique the results are very objective. Sharpness is another matter as it depends on numerous factors. The sharpness of some developers, including Rodinal and ABC Pyro, is provided by large and pronounced grain structure. These developers give nice sharp results at modest enlargements but the image breaks down if you print too large. Most pyro developers are sharp because of tanning which optimizes local reduction, and by local developer exhaustion which enhances edge effects. All of the contemporary pyro developers that are generally discussed in these threads, including PMK, WD2D+, Rollo Pyro, Tanol, Hypercat, and the various Pyrocat versions are capable of outstanding sharpness. You just have to learn how to use them. For example, for rotary development I prefer Pyrocat-MC over Pyrocat-HD, but for minimal agitation procedures I favor Pyrocat-HD or Pyrocat-P. In two-bath development sharpness (from enhanced adjacency effects) is simply off the wall with both -MC so I use both with these method of development.

The point I would emphasize is that while interesting comparisons can be made of different developers it is nearly always possible to get the results you want with any one of them if you have a good understanding of how the developer works with various dilutions and methods of agitation, and how the results fit with your specific method of printing. A good example is rotary development. While developers like Rollo Pyro and Pyrocat-MC work much better (lower B+F stain) out of the box with most films with rotary development than developers like PMK or WD2D+ it is nonetheless possible to get excellent results with last two by adjusting development procedures or by the use of additives such as more sulfite, some ascorbic, or EDTA.

Sandy King

[patrickjames]

I have been using Pyrocat-P for a few years now for medium and large format negs. I haven't had any problems with film speed, and sharpness is amazing as well. I stopped using PMK after I tried Pyrocat-P. I occasionally use it for 35mm as well, but I usually use Rodinal for 35mm. Beutler's is another I have tried, but I found the developing times too long to achieve the contrast I like for printing. The negs were great though.

[Andrew O'Neill]

mcfactor,

Do you develop in trays? I personally have found that if you want more sharpness, trays is the ways...er, sorry. But seriously, by limiting the amount of agitation, increases edge effects AND a slight gain in film speed. I use HP5 as my main film, pyrocat-hd 2+2+100, and agitate every 3 minutes. Sometimes I agitate every 5 minutes if I want more sharpness. If sharpness is not important for a particular image, then I develop in BTZS tubes.

[mcfactor]

Thanks for your detailed response Sandy. I did order some pyrocat-hd to try again. Perhaps my tests were not as scientific as they should have been. I also remeber having trouble simply eyeballing the pyro negs because of the stain.

I have been following some of the threads about divided pyro development. It seemed like much of the talk was for scanning negs. Would I see an increase in sharpness (or other benefits) from contact printing as well? I develop in trays, could simply have two trays, one for solution A and one for B, and move the negs from one to the other?

This answers Andrew's question. I do use trays but I have not tried limited agitation since I usually develop at least 4 sheets at 1 time. And I shuffle every minute.

Correct me if I am wrong, but could I do semi-stand with multiple sheets? Would the top sheet get more development than the others?

-Noah

[sanking]

Thanks for your detailed response Sandy. I did order some pyrocat-hd to try again. Perhaps my tests were not as scientific as they should have been. I also remeber having trouble simply eyeballing the pyro negs because of the stain.

I have been following some of the threads about divided pyro development. It seemed like much of the talk was for scanning negs. Would I see an increase in sharpness (or other benefits) from contact printing as well? I develop in trays, could simply have two trays, one for solution A and one for B, and move the negs from one to the other?

This answers Andrew's question. I do use trays but I have not tried limited agitation since I usually develop at least 4 sheets at 1 time. And I shuffle every minute.

Correct me if I am wrong, but could I do semi-stand with multiple sheets? Would the top sheet get more development than the others?

-Noah


Noah,

I don't discount the results of anybody's personal outcomes. There are really too many reasons to count why your results are not consistent with mine or or those of other persons. However, I am reasonably certain that if you are not getting full speed with Pyrocat it is not due to the developer itself, assuming it was mixed correctly and is being used appropriately. And you don't have to do anything special to get full film speed. I do all of my testing with rotary development, which in most cases gives slightly less film speed in most conditions than intermittent and minimal type schemes of agitation.

As for minimal agitation, you can do it with cradle type devices that develop up to four 4X5 or 5X7 sheets of film at a time, keeping them separated, or you can do it with tubes standing on end. But I don't recommend shuffle type development with minimal agitation methods.

Sandy

[Andrew O'Neill]

I personally do one sheet at a time. As mundain as it is, film development is TOO IMPORTANT. Doing more than one sheet runs the risk of scratching the emulsion from not just the other sheets but from your finger nails (unless you wear rubber gloves). I've done 4 sheets at once, but they were in their own tray. If you are going to do semi-stand, do it one sheet at a time.

[mcfactor]

I've gotten pretty good at developing a bunch together, no scratches on my last couple rounds and even development, but I certainly understand your point about the importance of each piece of film.

Well, I ordered both pyrocat-HD and -MC and the chemicals to make -P, so I will see for myself! I have the sneaking suspicion that I will go through a bunch of tests and realize that there isnt a significant difference. But I can't resist.

[Vertex Ninja]

Sandy,
What effect can water quality have on development with the Pyrocats? I used to use tap water with both HD and MC and after switching to distilled water the negatives seem better. Hard to explain why, but they seem smoother, particularly in the shadows/clear parts(perhaps more film speed?). Is this just in my head or have you noticed differences?

[sanking]

Sandy,
What effect can water quality have on development with the Pyrocats? I used to use tap water with both HD and MC and after switching to distilled water the negatives seem better. Hard to explain why, but they seem smoother, particularly in the shadows/clear parts(perhaps more film speed?). Is this just in my head or have you noticed differences?


Pyro tanning developers are highly sensitive to water quality and if there is any problem with development my recommendation is always to first mix the stock and working solutions with some form of purified water. So it would not surprise me at all that switching from tap to distilled water would result in better negatives.

Sandy