Having a hard time taking sunset shots correctly.

[minesix66]

I just got into Large format and I have been using medium format for about a year. I took the following cameras with me on a recent vacation: Canon 5D w 17-40, Tachihara with 75 nikon, Holga and Pentax 67 with 45mm.

The best and keepers I got were from my 5d. My Pentax gave me a couple of good ones and so did the holga. The Tachihara light leaked all my shots, I bought it used. I really like using film but I can't seem to nail the sunset shots right. I used hitech filters .6 and .9 grads with a polarizer on my cameras to try to tone down the sunsets and get a nice exposure on the foreground.

With the film cameras I got a dark foreground with a properly exposed sunset. I used an old sekonic light meter for my Tachihara for the exposure. I used the pentaxs' on board light meter. I used velvia 50, fuji 160vc in the pentax and velvia 100f in the Tachihara. What can I do to correct this problem with the film cameras? Is it possible that you cannot get a properly exposed foreground with a sunset. Also note that the sunsets were taken when the sun was almost under that horizon and the color in the clouds were at there peak.

With the 5d I was able to bracket my shots and then I can blend them later in PS. This is the only reason why I like digital. I would really like to nail the film shots. Does anyone have any suggestions. I loved how the velvia 50 film looks on a light board.

[memorris]

To begin with, transparency film does not have a large dynamic range ( about 4.5 - 5.6 stops). Sunsets will require quite a bit of range so if you really want color, use color negative film for those.

No clue which Sekonic you are using. If it is a spot meter for negative film, place the shadow. then meter the highlights to see if you have the range to properly expose the film.

When I use transparencies I meter the highlights and let the shadows go if there is too much range. But over the last couple of years I have moved almost entirely to B&W film. Lots os latitude and control.

[timparkin]

I just got into Large format and I have been using medium format for about a year. I took the following cameras with me on a recent vacation: Canon 5D w 17-40, Tachihara with 75 nikon, Holga and Pentax 67 with 45mm.

The best and keepers I got were from my 5d. My Pentax gave me a couple of good ones and so did the holga. The Tachihara light leaked all my shots, I bought it used. I really like using film but I can't seem to nail the sunset shots right. I used hitech filters .6 and .9 grads with a polarizer on my cameras to try to tone down the sunsets and get a nice exposure on the foreground.

With the film cameras I got a dark foreground with a properly exposed sunset. I used an old sekonic light meter for my Tachihara for the exposure. I used the pentaxs' on board light meter. I used velvia 50, fuji 160vc in the pentax and velvia 100f in the Tachihara. What can I do to correct this problem with the film cameras? Is it possible that you cannot get a properly exposed foreground with a sunset. Also note that the sunsets were taken when the sun was almost under that horizon and the color in the clouds were at there peak.

With the 5d I was able to bracket my shots and then I can blend them later in PS. This is the only reason why I like digital. I would really like to nail the film shots. Does anyone have any suggestions. I loved how the velvia 50 film looks on a light board.

Hi Morris,

It is perfectly possible to take pictures during the sunset/sunrise conditions you describe. It would help a lots if you could post a couple of examples of your failures and detail how you metered and what grads you used.

Here are a couple of examples of velvia sunsets under the conditions you describe..

http://www.timparkin.co.uk/gallery/light/21

This first required two grads, a two stop hard for the horizon and a two stop soft across the whole picture

http://www.timparkin.co.uk/gallery/composition/5

A two stop hard grad held back this shot taken 10 minutes after sunset

http://www.timparkin.co.uk/gallery/detail/36

A 3 stop hard grad held back the sky but the light rock foreground helped.


I would highly recommend using a spot filter to meter scenes such as this and trying to get all details in a range from -3 to +2 stops. Typically you would spot meter a point about a couple of finger widths away from the sun (with your hand at arms length) which would usually give you an LV of about 13-14. For most foregrounds, an LV of around 8 or 9 is typical which means you need to use between 3 and 5 stops of grad. If you need more than three stops, I suggests combining a hard and soft grad to create a more beleivable transition (unless there are natural places to place both hard grad boundaries. Don't combine 5 stops of hard grad in the same place if at all possible).

Tim

[Greg Miller]

I definitely agree that using GND filters is a good approach this this with LF cameras. Be careful to select the proper strength of GND though. One of my pet peeves is using too strong of a GND, and getting the sky darker than foreground objects. That is not possible from a physics perspective, and it is something that always jumps out at me when viewing photos.

This can be avoided by using your spot meter to meter the sky and then meter the foreground. Generally (with transparency film with a 5 stop dynamic range) you will want the sky to be 1 or 2 stops lighter than the foreground. So if there is a 5 stop difference, you can use a 2 or 3 stop GND.

[minesix66]

Thanks for the help guys. I can't remember how I took the photos. I do have grads. I was using an old sekonic light meter or sometimes my 5d to get an idea. Here is a picture I have taken. The rest of them got lighted leaked.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1269/4691370277_18c6116aef.jpg

[minesix66]

Tim did you use a 75mm lens for the shots?

[arca andy]

What ya
Maybe you have a metering issue as the sky seems too dark ...if you where using a spot meter it looks like you have taken a reading directly from the sky, if your meter reading was ambient then it looks like, well, a bad reading, either user error or meter error.
OK, if you are confident with the meter and your ability to use it, did you take in to account film reciprocity failure and bellows extension (not much from a 75mm lens)? There's lots of info on this forum about both.
Sunsets are tricky to meter, how are your 5x4 shots in 'normal' daylight, correctly exposed? Also don't forget, you can bracket your exposures then scan and blend in Photoshop
Keep going, keep posting, have fun
Andy
PS You didn't put the grads on up-side-down did you? No, course not, silly question.

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks for the help guys. I can't remember how I took the photos. I do have grads. I was using an old sekonic light meter or sometimes my 5d to get an idea. Here is a picture I have taken. The rest of them got lighted leaked.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1269/4691370277_18c6116aef.jpg

This one just looks underexposed all the way around. While it's hard to say anything definitive without seeing the original scene and knowing what's in the foreground, it looks like you may have metered for the sunset rather than for the foreground and then underexposed the sunset (perhaps because you metered off the brightest part of the sunset rather than off the adjacent clouds?).

[tbirke]

I like to overexpose the sky and get a halo effect. You can get back lost colour and skies and grad a little with photoshop.
I spot meter close to the sun and some objects on the ground - I then underexpose the ground by 1 1/2 stops - this still leaves a gap of up to 6 Stops close to the sun, hence the halo becomes a little large, but still manageable.

This for example has been shot on e100g:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4699687936_8e2f63f60c_b.jpg

[eddie]

easy fix is to use a longer lens and then just cut out the foreground when you frame it. in difficult lighting situations i cut out the sky or the foreground if i can. (and/or see below)

a ND filter will help lower the sky values a bit making it easier to get a good exposure. i cut the sky out of this photo (http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=3957461). velvia still a bit dark in the lower corner but i did the best i could here (http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=5019935). velvia

i do not have access to my sunset photos right now. sorry

also use C41 film to give better latitude.

your digital did no better as you still had to "blend" the photos in PS.

eddie

[Stephane]

Looks like while you pilled up your ND grad and pol filters, you forgot filter factors (I say that because even the sky is underexposed).

[Robert Hughes]

Easy fix is to use a green screen and put your city in front of it! Hey, if David Cameron can do it, so can you...

[Rakesh Malik]

Looks like while you pilled up your ND grad and pol filters, you forgot filter factors (I say that because even the sky is underexposed).

That's precisely the mistake that I made the first time I used ND grads on the 4x5 :)

[z_photo]

a rule of thumb is to expose the brightest part of the sky by one stop over mid tone. if you use an ND filter spot meter the brightest part of the sky through the filter amd check exposure in darker areas. that is the general starting point i use with great success.

[ljb0904]

Hey since you have a digital camera, why not use your meter to make exposures with the digital just like you would the 4x5. That is setup up digital camera, spot meter, place grad on digital camera lens, make exposure, check results. Your digicam is a fantastic learning tool.

Also, if you are shooting in to the sunset, you may want to consider a reverse grad on top of a regular grad. I find for most scenes a two stop grad is good when shooting away from the sun, and I need 3 stops shooting into the sun (sometimes more is helpful).

Not to be calling you stupid, but you did have the dark side of the grad up, yeah? (And I've made many a stupid mistake :) )

[mrladewig]

Hey since you have a digital camera, why not use your meter to make exposures with the digital just like you would the 4x5. That is setup up digital camera, spot meter, place grad on digital camera lens, make exposure, check results. Your digicam is a fantastic learning tool.


To do this, you must understand that the digital will not necessarily match the behavior of the film exactly. This also does not apply if you are doing close focus/macro on the large format. But it can act as an instant verification that the exposure criteria is in the right general range. If the camera is on ISO 100 and your film is ISO 100, you should get a usable image from the digital.

What is important to know is that a digital camera may indicate ISO100, but may actually be performing as ISO 64 or ISO 125 (see DXOmark). It depends on the camera and ISO setting. In addition, the dynamic range of a digital camera is not a great match for film. It may have more or less dynamic range than your intended film.

But again, if your spot meter indicates a particular exposure, then you should end up with a pretty good exposure on a digi cam with an equivalent if you're going to get a good exposure on the LF camera.