Best Epson desktop printer for B&W these days...?

[Frank Petronio]

Well my venerable Epson 2200 using the Harrington QuadTone RIP is nearing the end of its life cycle and I don't really need or want to invest in a 3880 "even though the ink is so much cheaper...." because I really only print a couple hundred prints per year plus general home office plain paper printing. Also I print in spurts, sometimes a month or two between runs of photos so I hate to have hundreds of dollars of unused color ink sitting in the printer clogging up.

I like to print neutral B&W images on Baryta papers but also crank out decent color prints too. Most of these go into old-fashioned portfolios. I've been happy with the 2200 results using the straight Epson inks and drivers for color and the Harrington RIP for B&W.

What is the state of the art for 13x19 Epsons these days? Has their (Mac OS) driver improved enough that I can get a neutral B&W using the native driver?

I see the R1900, 1400, and 2880 printers listed... if the consensus is that the 2880 is the way to go then hmmm I might have to revisit my statement about not considering the 3880 and do some ink price calculations.....

Thanks. And thanks for allowing me to ignore this topic for the past five years while I happily printed away with my obsolete printer.

[bdkphoto]

Well my venerable Epson 2200 using the Harrington QuadTone RIP is nearing the end of its life cycle and I don't really need or want to invest in a 3880 "even though the ink is so much cheaper...." because I really only print a couple hundred prints per year plus general home office plain paper printing. Also I print in spurts, sometimes a month or two between runs of photos so I hate to have hundreds of dollars of unused color ink sitting in the printer clogging up.

I like to print neutral B&W images on Baryta papers but also crank out decent color prints too. Most of these go into old-fashioned portfolios. I've been happy with the 2200 results using the straight Epson inks and drivers for color and the Harrington RIP for B&W.

What is the state of the art for 13x19 Epsons these days? Has their (Mac OS) driver improved enough that I can get a neutral B&W using the native driver?

I see the R1900, 1400, and 2880 printers listed... if the consensus is that the 2880 is the way to go then hmmm I might have to revisit my statement about not considering the 3880 and do some ink price calculations.....

Thanks. And thanks for allowing me to ignore this topic for the past five years while I happily printed away with my obsolete printer.

I've been using the 2200 QuadRip combo for years, but printed my last few projects on the x880 series printers and wont go back to the 2200. The basic profiles work great straight out of the box. The printers I use are at ICP (I teach there) so they are the basic profiles and drivers. I was shocked at how good the results were.

[D. Bryant]

I see the R1900, 1400, and 2880 printers listed... if the consensus is that the 2880 is the way to go then hmmm I might have to revisit my statement about not considering the 3880 and do some ink price calculations.....



Frank,

My Epson 2200 served me well but I purchased a 3800 before the 2200 was close to the end of it's service life. The 3800 has been a marvelous printer and I probably have similar printing patterns as you and have not had any clogging problems.

So knowing what I know now, I think it is foolish to purchase a desktop printer like the 2880 even though the 3880 is more expensive. Cone color inks are now available for the 3800 and I think the 3880 as well so ink costs have been reduced even further.

My 2 cents,

Don Bryant

[Roger Hein]

FWIW I had a 4800 - fabulous printer - but found I was printing less than 100 prints a year, probably closer to 60 and most of those are inkjet negs for platinum printing. I was spending more money on head cleanings than on prints. The Epson Maintenance Tank should be renamed the Waste Tank instead. ;-)

Anyways I sold the 4800 and replaced it with the 2880. Output is excellent. Platinum prints from inkjet negs made on the 2880 print very smooth. In the end the 2880 is perfect for the amount and type of printing I do.

Roger...

[Michael Gordon]

Hi Frank: the 2880 and 3880 offer Epson Advanced Black & White printing, which is far superior to printing from the standard RGB driver (especially for grayscale neutral, which is spot-on with virtually no color crossovers or metamerism). Further, K3 inks are much better than the original Ultrachrome set. No matter how you slice it, your inkjet printing should improve with one of these printers.

[drew.saunders]

I've been using the 2880 for a few months now on a Mac and with the "Advanced B&W" print option you can tweak the neutral/warm/cold just the way you like it. I've found a setting with Harman FB Al that's just a teeny pinch warm that, to my eye, matches what I used to get with regular Ilford MG FB paper. I also only print about 6-8 sheets at a time, but often leave it off for several weeks, and it doesn't seem to mind being powered off. I haven't gotten any clogs or streaks on the first print after a reboot. Just power it off from the power button so it goes through its shut-down mode.

Color is also quite nice, and it doesn't seem to waste ink like my HP B9180 used to.

[Ron Marshall]

Frank, considering the value of the additional ink that comes with the 3880 it is not much more than the 2880.

I print infrequently on my 3800 and have had no problems with clogs; however I did with the 2200.

[Darin Boville]

Hi Frank: the 2880 and 3880 offer Epson Advanced Black & White printing, which is far superior to printing from the standard RGB driver (especially for grayscale neutral, which is spot-on with virtually no color crossovers or metamerism). Further, K3 inks are much better than the original Ultrachrome set. No matter how you slice it, your inkjet printing should improve with one of these printers.

Also, I think the 3880 is less plagued by clogs than other printers. I've had mine for a year or two and don't think I've ever had a clog. I hear similar reports elsewhere eon the web. I use the printer is bursts...it may sit idle for a month then print fifty 16x20s the week after...

--Darin

[Tyler Boley]

Frank, I'll take the contrary view here. You already know the advantages of QTR from personal experience, you've also expressed interest in a 13' printer specifically. QTR still outperforms ABW on the printers which it supports, and you will give up your ability to fine tune your B&W hue in three separate parts of the scale without QTR.
I'd advise a 2400 or 2880, first looking at the QTR site to verify good 2880 support.
The 1800/1900 series will not give you the B&W quality with which you are accustomed despite the gloss optimizer, because of the absence of light black inks. The 2400 and 2880 will take you a step forward from your 2200 due to the additional light light black, and have improved bronzing and gloss differential as well.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[sanking]

Frank, I'll take the contrary view here. You already know the advantages of QTR from personal experience, you've also expressed interest in a 13' printer specifically. QTR still outperforms ABW on the printers which it supports, and you will give up your ability to fine tune your B&W hue in three separate parts of the scale without QTR.


I agree with Tyler about QTR. I don't do a lot of inkjet printing but when I do I find split toning, which is fairly easy to do with QTR, a tremendous help in getting the exact look I want for shadows, mid-tones and highlights. About this time last year I printed a small exhibition of inkjet prints using split toning and was delighted with the result. And thanks to Tyler for the advice offered during that project.

Second, I have owned an Epson 3800 for about three years and have never had a head clog, or for that matter have never even had to run the nozzle cleaning routine. And since I use my printer primarily for making digital negatives it sometimes goes for a few weeks or even a few months at a time at rest.

Given the cost and power QTR is about the best value out there for an Epson printer.

Sandy King

[Sergei Antonov]

Frank, if you could use custom inks, then Epson 1400 could be the most flexible and economical solution. It will require QTR which you already have. I use self made inksets designed by Paul Roark and based on MSI Eboni ink (for matte paper) and on HP Photo Black ink (for both matte and glossy paper). Base contains water, glicerin, photoflow -- all could be purchased in stores. I am using these inks in 2200 and 1400 and could tell that it has no clogs compared to either Epson inks or any after marked inks I used. I also print occasionally.
You could find details on Paul's web site (http://www.paulroark.com).

--Sergei

[brianam]

Frank, FYI , there's a refurbished 3800 on Epson's clearance website at $895, shipped free. and some 2880's at $600 after a rebate. Not too bad.

I have a 2400 and think I'm going to swap it for a 3880 when I've run through the batch ink I just picked up. I'd like to be able to print a 16x20 at home; and footprint-wise the 3800-series is super friendly (unlike the 4800).

[D. Bryant]

Frank, I'll take the contrary view here. You already know the advantages of QTR from personal experience, you've also expressed interest in a 13' printer specifically. QTR still outperforms ABW on the printers which it supports, and you will give up your ability to fine tune your B&W hue in three separate parts of the scale without QTR.
I'd advise a 2400 or 2880, first looking at the QTR site to verify good 2880 support.
The 1800/1900 series will not give you the B&W quality with which you are accustomed despite the gloss optimizer, because of the absence of light black inks. The 2400 and 2880 will take you a step forward from your 2200 due to the additional light light black, and have improved bronzing and gloss differential as well.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

So why not use QTR with a 3800 or 3880? It worked well on my 2200 and it works fine with my 3800 only the ink is less expensive. Am I missing something about the 2400/2880 - QTR combination?

The people I know who own either the 2400 or 2880 all complain about excessive ink usage due to the printer automatically performing cleaning cycles and the fact the ink carts are smaller and more expensive than the 2200 carts by comparison.

[Tyler Boley]

Frank mentioned wanting a 13" printer, that's all. The 38xx is great and has QTR support, I taught a B&W printing workshop with that exact setup, and my friend Amadou Diallo, author of Mastering Digital B&W has done extensive work with QTR and the 3800, and also teaches at ICP. It is a 17" printer.
Tyler

[Preston]

"The people I know who own either the 2400 or 2880 all complain about excessive ink usage due to the printer automatically performing cleaning cycles and the fact the ink carts are smaller and more expensive than the 2200 carts by comparison."

I love the quality I get from my 2400! My color prints are beautiful, and the B&W I've done look very nice. That said, I support Don's remark regarding ink use and cost. If I could, I would get a 3880 in heartbeat.

One thing that did catch my eye was that Frank mentioned he does regular document printing in addition to making prints. For that application, the 2880 (or a good used R2400) may be a better fit.

--P

[Henry Ambrose]

So how does a color print on glossy paper from a 3880 compare to a highest quality optical print or a lambda or lightjet? Is it absolutely 100% as good?

[Oren Grad]

So how does a color print on glossy paper from a 3880 compare to a highest quality optical print or a lambda or lightjet? Is it absolutely 100% as good?

That's a stir-up-the-hornet's-nest question. I got a 3880 recently, and have made a bunch of glossy prints as part of learning my way around it. They still look and feel like inkjets, not optical prints. (I can't speak to Lambda or Lightjet prints.) When you're comparing apples and oranges, "as good" is purely subjective.

One thing that is driving me crazy so far is that unlike with my B9180, which makes a clean print whether the file is sent to the printer at 300 or 600 ppi, my 3880 is clean at 360 ppi but with some types of picture content the printer generates blatant aliasing in the print if the file is sent at 720 ppi. I guess the dither isn't sufficiently random. For now, I'm frustrated and wondering whether a third-party RIP might fix that.

EDIT: A PS to Frank - I've seen the aliasing so far only with color prints, not B&W.

[Tyler Boley]

ink and conventional light sensitive materials are two different animals and will forever be without some new technology. Ink is applied to the surface, wet process emulsions are "down in there". The second pass gloss optimizer systems bring the two looks much closer, but the vast majority of popular inking systems are not there to satisfactorily replace wet processes for discerning artists committed to that look, not only in this regard but many others. I am thrilled with ink for what I do because it does something different, not because it emulates.
If I thought my work with wet processes was superior for me, I'd stick to it.
Tyler

[Nathan Potter]

Ah, Tyler a most instructive and elegantly phrased comment. I also observe the mediums are different - sometimes greatly different and sometimes not so much, I suppose, depending on the skill of the craftsman. For me the magic is in the content of the image.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Frank Petronio]

If I am not split-toning, is the Harrington RIP still better than the Epson Advanced B&W Printing driver for straight B&W prints?

[Paul Ewins]

Frank, can't help you with the artsy stuff but for your general document printing it would be easier to just get a small monochrome laser printer and take that stuff right out of the equation. If you haven't looked at printers in five years you will be amazed how cheap a little USB laser printer is (should be well under $100). They are light and compact too, so finding somewhere to put them isn't a chore. That way you aren't wasting expensive ink on mundane tasks, and the toner doesn't clog, dry up or go off if unused for months.

[Eric Brody]

I agree with the comments about the Epson 38xx printers. I've had my 3800 since it became available and I've not had a clog. I do live in the usually moist Pacific northwest though. I usually print every week or two. The print quality in both color and black and white is quite incredible. I agree with Tyler that ink is ink and silver gelatin is different but like him, I'm so pleased with the results, to say nothing of the flexibility of Lightroom and Photoshop, that it's really unlikely I'll ever use my fabulous darkroom again, sad but true.

Recently it was suggested to further decrease the chance of a clog, that I add a few ounces of water to the maintenance cartridge monthly. I've done so for a few of the wettest months in years here in Oregon and I've still not had a clog. We'll see, but it is certainly simple to do.

[Brian Ellis]

I'm with Sandy and Tyler (pretty good company : - )- QTR beats Advanced B&W and like Sandy, I've never had a clog with my 3800 despite not printing very much and printing in bursts when I do print.

[Frank Petronio]

Is the difference between the 3800 and 3880 at all worth the price difference?

[Tyler Boley]

If I am not split-toning, is the Harrington RIP still better than the Epson Advanced B&W Printing driver for straight B&W prints?

It is better in ways important to some, but perhaps not everyone. Also, how much better depends on the quality of the supplied curves, which are generally good but can vary.
Split toning needn't be a tool for an obvious look, but a way to subtly nail any hue. I found myself going around in circles, and never quite happy with the ABW hue control, primarily because it's global, and though perhaps technically hue linear throughout the scale (I never measured) just never very attractive to me. You needn't use the triple sectioned hue control heavy handed, you can for example add a little purple to the shadows of your otherwise neutral or cool prints, etc.
One reason I think it works better is illustrated here-
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=37667&hl=quadtone
in the supplied image, notice not only how nice and linear the luminosity scale is in the QTR graph, but how smooth the hue lines are compared to the jumpiness of the RGB or ABW output. That may be part of why ABW output never looks "clean" to me.
I hasten to add before anyone gets mad, many are happy with ABW, land on papers and settings that work well and make dandy prints.
The QTR convention is to always supply one curve that is the black inks only, generally labeled warm, since Epson black and lighter black inks are yellowish due to being carbon. Then you blend in other curves at will to get your hue, and they all use only the color ink necessary, never all the color inks. So from a longevity standpoint, over the life of the print it's likely to maintain it's intended hue longer than a mono print made using all the color inks which fade at various rates. To be fair, the longevity tests at Aardenburg are showing the ABW prints to be doing very well, but color inks do have differential fade, and they are bound to change hue eventually.
This is a huge topic that could require a book, or a month long workshop, but additionally- the RGB driver and the ABW driver by nature have to use up a cluster of dot positions to make up a tone, and that cluster will contain dots of ink of all the colors, that's how it works. The ABW driver less, but still all the colors. Therefore dot positions that could have been used to define file detail are instead utilized for hue. Good ink setups for mono chrome usng a RIP, light inks to full advantage, and only the color ink absolutely necessary, can use more dot positions to define file info if it is present, and write more information to paper. Skip the geek hype on this page and scroll down to the image to see it illustrated-
http://www.custom-digital.com/2009/04/new-photo-surface-bw-print-service/
even though this was done with StudioPrint, QTR is capable of the same advantage. All this with OEM ink.
Even though I do not personally use QTR, I think it is the greatest and simplest tool available for B&W artists printing with ink on Epsons. It's for B&W, not for color, and controls the inks in ways appropriate for that specifically, AND gives the kind of control discerning B&W artists would want to personalize their results. Additionally, the next step, monochromatic ink sets, it hands the designer the tools for that as well...
Enough.. too much...
So download it and try it for free, if you like it give Roy his measly $50. OK the docs suck, what do you want for $50????
Tyler

[Ken Lee]

I just tried it out (having done so, unsuccessfully, a while back). I sent that $50 today !

I had some Epson Enhanced Matte lying around, and tried making a warm-toned image. Whoah. And it's faster than the Epson drivers too.

I wish there were curves for a wider range of papers, but Silver Rag is supported, and it has no OBAs, so I'll go with that. Epson Enhanced Matte has metamerism, as they say, "to beat the band".

[Ben Hopson]

Frank, I do not know what a 3800 costs now, but I received an email from atlex.com yesterday promoting a price reduction on the 3880 as well as a $100 rebate from Epson. If memory serves, the printer ends up at $1079 with free freight. No idea if that is a good price or not, but maybe worth exploring if you are considering a 3880. I have a 4880 and am very pleased with it.

http://www.atlex.com/epson_pro/stylus_pro_3880_vivid_magenta_printer.htm

Ben


Is the difference between the 3800 and 3880 at all worth the price difference?

[Tyler Boley]

Ken, the trick for unsupported papers is similar to color with the Epson driver, select a paper that is as similar as possible. It may be fine right off the bat, but if you want to nail it, have a friend with a spectro make a "create QTR icc" for you, very simple and fast, or have them relinearize the curves for your paper, requiring a bit more knowledge of QTR, but still simple by comparison with color profiling.
I should add more links, the QTR Yahoo group where you will find many expert users and advice. Some may be willing to help with linearizations and profile via snail mail-
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/
and Amadou's site-
http://blogfiftygreatestphotos.com/
if you go down to his QTR post, he has a link to download his tutorial, the best I've seen to date.

Roy better start sending me commissions soon d**m it

[Ken Lee]

Excellent -- Thanks Tyler !

With the QTR, your files can stay in Grayscale mode. There's no need to convert them to RGB and add a Color Fill layer, as I have been doing. So files are much smaller: faster to load, faster to edit, and smaller on disk. This also means that photoshop works faster, and/or requires less RAM.

[D. Bryant]

and Amadou's site-
http://blogfiftygreatestphotos.com/
if you go down to his QTR post, he has a link to download his tutorial, the best I've seen to date.



Just thought I would point out that this tutorial is for the Mac version of QTR. So PC users be aware that the instructions in the tutorial won't work. However, it's still probably worth a download and read for tidbits of information germain to both versions (Mac &PC.)

Don Bryant

[Tyler Boley]

in some ways the PC version is easier. It's a stand alone printing app, so you can scale and place your image in a sheet size. It has a nice GUI that is fairly intuitive, and a help section that makes a tutorial far less necessary. The main disadvantage is no color management, so you have to convert your files to the proper output space and "save as", before importing into QTR to print.

[gnuyork]

Frank,

I'd go with any printer size of your choice with the K3 inkset. I have the R2400, but the current one is the 2880. I used to make B&Ws with the 1280 and the MIS monotone inkset. When I printed my first B&W on the 2400 I was completely blown away at both how good the print looked and how friggin' easy it was after dealing with all the required custom curves and testing with the MIS setup.

Also the color prints are stunning as well.

If it were me, I'd get the 3880. I don't do much printing per year either, but when I do a good run I go through a lot of ink and it's annoying and expensive to keep replacing it.

Also, currently I am using the baryta papers and I think my prints are even better with those papers. I get to use the gloss black ink for more D max, and also I printed identical prints with my favorite matte paper vs my favorite baryta paper, and the baryta paper held more subtle detail.

[shileshjani]

Lest the passages below in bold, italic, and underscored become part of urban legend, I should clarify: In inkjet printing, there is no tone (hue) independent of density ("file info" in Tyler's parlance). When you send to the printer a colorless (grayscale) image either as a gray or RGB file, density is made up with available (or chosen) inks. The hue/tone (incidental or deliberate) depends on the inks chosen to create the density (info). This is NOT like a color wash to give the print hue, independent of density. This is very simple really to understand - all color inks used in inkjet prints have reflective density to lesser or greater extent (yellow being the least). So one cannot decouple hue from density as this post suggests. I am sure Tylers know better.

Shilesh

PS: QTR is awesome. By the way prints with Epson ABW can be linearized with ease. ABW just does not give you absolute control of Dmax like QTR does.


It is better in ways important to some, but perhaps not everyone. Also, how much better depends on the quality of the supplied curves, which are generally good but can vary.
Split toning needn't be a tool for an obvious look, but a way to subtly nail any hue. I found myself going around in circles, and never quite happy with the ABW hue control, primarily because it's global, and though perhaps technically hue linear throughout the scale (I never measured) just never very attractive to me. You needn't use the triple sectioned hue control heavy handed, you can for example add a little purple to the shadows of your otherwise neutral or cool prints, etc.
One reason I think it works better is illustrated here-
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=37667&hl=quadtone
in the supplied image, notice not only how nice and linear the luminosity scale is in the QTR graph, but how smooth the hue lines are compared to the jumpiness of the RGB or ABW output. That may be part of why ABW output never looks "clean" to me.
I hasten to add before anyone gets mad, many are happy with ABW, land on papers and settings that work well and make dandy prints.
The QTR convention is to always supply one curve that is the black inks only, generally labeled warm, since Epson black and lighter black inks are yellowish due to being carbon. Then you blend in other curves at will to get your hue, and they all use only the color ink necessary, never all the color inks. So from a longevity standpoint, over the life of the print it's likely to maintain it's intended hue longer than a mono print made using all the color inks which fade at various rates. To be fair, the longevity tests at Aardenburg are showing the ABW prints to be doing very well, but color inks do have differential fade, and they are bound to change hue eventually.
This is a huge topic that could require a book, or a month long workshop, but additionally- the RGB driver and the ABW driver by nature have to use up a cluster of dot positions to make up a tone, and that cluster will contain dots of ink of all the colors, that's how it works. The ABW driver less, but still all the colors. Therefore dot positions that could have been used to define file detail are instead utilized for hue. Good ink setups for mono chrome usng a RIP, light inks to full advantage, and only the color ink absolutely necessary, can use more dot positions to define file info if it is present, and write more information to paper. Skip the geek hype on this page and scroll down to the image to see it illustrated-
http://www.custom-digital.com/2009/04/new-photo-surface-bw-print-service/
even though this was done with StudioPrint, QTR is capable of the same advantage. All this with OEM ink.
Even though I do not personally use QTR, I think it is the greatest and simplest tool available for B&W artists printing with ink on Epsons. It's for B&W, not for color, and controls the inks in ways appropriate for that specifically, AND gives the kind of control discerning B&W artists would want to personalize their results. Additionally, the next step, monochromatic ink sets, it hands the designer the tools for that as well...
Enough.. too much...
So download it and try it for free, if you like it give Roy his measly $50. OK the docs suck, what do you want for $50????
Tyler