Special order 5x7 film from Kodak

[badbluesman]

I want to order some Kodak T-Max 400 film in 5x7 sheets. Kodak will cut any of their films to any size with a minimum order (I believe it is 3,000 sheets). Is anybody out there interested in getting in on this order with me?

I want 1,000 sheets for myself. I believe it comes in 100-sheet boxes. B&H will probably give us a discounted price. I did an order like this in 2002 and it worked out fine. About five people participated.

Kodak has recently re-vamped T-MAX 400, improving its grain and sharpness. According to John Sexton, who has tested the new film extensively, it is identical to the old version in every other way. He is very impressed with the improvement in grain and says that the enlargement quality is now very, very close to that of T-MAX 100.

I favor this film over any other B&W emulsion for my 5x7 work because I shoot a lot of portraits and interiors. For the portraits I need a faster shutter speed and also appreciate that fact that the grain is much finer than Tri-X. For interiors, however, it is really indispensable because of its much lower reciprocity failure compared to old-style BW films. I am able to capture low-light interiors with 15-20 minute exposures that would not be practical with Tri-X, due to the reciprocity compensation required. The same goes for nocturnal exteriors.

For examples of what I am talking about, see my website: www.joelpickford.com and look especially at the Le Monde Creole project.

If you are interested in getting some of this special order 5x7 film, please email me: joelpickford@yahoo.com

[thart2009]

First... you have a wonderful website and very fine work! Very inspiring to say the least. I would love to jump on this bandwagon, but the funds won't permit more than a box of 100 sheets. If you need my token amount, let me know.

[badbluesman]

Here is a quick update to clarify the details of the special order for 5x7 film that I am planning to place with Kodak:

Kodak has a minimum quantity of 3,000 sheets or 30 boxes of 100 sheets each for special orders. Right now I am looking for people to tell me how many 100-sheet boxes they would like. I am already getting lots of emails and I am confident that we will be able to place the order. I am going to take 10 boxes myself, so that will make it easier. Most people who have emailed me have asked for 2-4 boxes. I also have asked a large format camera dealer in the Southwest to look for more customers to join the order.

Meanwhile, I will ask various dealers to give my the best price quote they can per box. I will also ask them to take everyone's order individually and handle the payment and shipping directly. When we have 30 boxes spoken for, I will let everyone know the price. Then the dealer will take your individual orders, place the special order with Kodak, and ship your boxes to you.

[Ken Lee]

Do we know how much was paid for a 100-sheet box, last time such an order was placed ?

People might be more likely to commit if we know an approximate price per box of 100 sheets. It would also keep things out in the open, and we could more easily justify the expense over time, to ourselves, so to speak.

[Jan Pedersen]

The last offering for 5x7 TMY 2 was a couple of years ago when Glazers in Seattle did a several format offering. It was however not 100 sheet boxes but 50 sheets. The price for 50 sheets was either 103$ or 107$ as far as i can remember.

[John Bowen]

5x7 should be about $2.50 per sheet

[Jan Pedersen]

Bad memory, it was actually 113$ for 50 sheets.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=37440&highlight=Glazers

[Dave Aharonian]

I would take 2 boxes for sure.

[badbluesman]

Re: questions about the price, past and present:

I know this is going to hurt, but we paid 80 cents per sheet for the last special order ($80 per 100-sheet box). That was 2002.

When I started surfing the 'net recently to price 5x7 film, which I have not purchased since then and have not shot since 2005, I got a whopping case of sticker shock. 50-sheet boxes now cost more than 100-sheet boxes did back then!

However, when I consider the cost of a new digital view camera system equivalent to my LF film system (I have six late model Rodenstock lenses and one Nikkor, two Arca-Swiss format sets, many other Arca-Swiss accessories, a set of special order 105mm BW filters, lots of film holders in two formats, a Jobo with two drums, etc., etc.), the cost of film seems reasonable, especially when processing with a Jobo is so cheap. I estimate an equivalent digital VC system would cost $35,000 - $40,000. Then you have to deal with limited dynamic range, moire, rapid obsolescence, and hardware that, frankly, still has lots of bugs, especially in the way that various company's products interface (or don't interface) with one another.

A QUICK REMINDER: Those of you who are interested in purchasing some of the special order 5x7 T-Max 400 film need to email me directly:

joelpickford@yahoo.com

I am saving all of your emails in a folder so that I can easily contact everyone when we are ready to order. Thanks for your support and interest in the topic.

[badbluesman]

Progress Report (good news):

By my count we already have approximately 2,300 sheets spoken for. This is not exact, because some people have said "I'll take 200-400 sheets" or "I'm in for a few hundred dollars worth." In those cases, I calculated the median average.

But the bottom line is that we are already pretty close after only two days since the post went up.

[BILL3075]

When do you anticipate delivery from Kodak?

BILL

[badbluesman]

When do you anticipate delivery from Kodak?

BILL

I have queried two dealers and am waiting to hear back from them.

[Richard Martel]

hi, i'm down for 100 sheets,

regards, Richard

[badbluesman]

GREAT NEWS!

We now have more than the minimum! Besides my own commitment, we have about 3,000 sheets spoken for. Since I am going to get 1,000 sheets myself, that puts us over the top with a healthy margin. Now I am waiting to hear from three dealers (who are no doubt waiting to hear from Kodak).

I don't mind waiting a bit, as the emails are still coming in. John Sexton suggested two other large format photography forums where I might also post. Who knows, we may get enough critical mass to send a message to Kodak about the 5x7 format!

For those of you who may not have seen it, here is Kodak's announcement about their new, improved version of T-Max 400. It includes an audio interview with John Sexton, discussing his experiences with the new emulsion:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/bw/tMax400.jhtml

[Rui Morais de Sousa]

Mr. Badbluesman,
Congratulations on your OUTSTANDING work!
Absolutely GREAT!
Regards,
Rui
P.S.: The price increase that you talk about, minimal quantity orders, plus the difficulty on getting sheet film over here, as led me to experiment with Foma sheet film (I know, ISO 100...). I find it very good to use and with a very decent price, no minimum orders required, at least where I get it from (Fotoimpex, Berlin). Lots of formats available.

[badbluesman]

UPDATE:

I am still waiting to hear back from the dealers. One of them emailed me, anticipating having an answer in a few days.

Many thanks to everyone for your support, participation, and encouragement. We now have 13 people committed to ordering a total of about 4,000 sheets. I hope to be emailing everyone soon with details of the order.

[badbluesman]

UPDATE:

Rod Klukas at Photo Mark is still waiting for details from Kodak, but he has learned that there is a substantially better price break if we can get our order total up to 6,000 sheets (we currently have 14 photographers committed to ordering a total of about 4,000 sheets).

As a result, I have just posted on the APUG forums and sent John Sexton some copy for his email newsletter.

Rod informs me that Kodak says the order will take 4-6 weeks. I remember it being only 3-4 weeks last time I did it, even though they said 4-6 weeks.:)

[cdholden]

Depending on how much of a price break, people may have the incentive to buy more.
Could you ask for details on both when you hear back?

[Allen in Montreal]

Depending on how much of a price break, people may have the incentive to buy more.....

Me too
I can always throw some food out of the freezer for 5x7 film! :)

[Dave Aharonian]

I'd be in for at least another box too!

[Kimberly Anderson]

I'm in for at least one box of 100 sheets.

[Steve Duprey]

Count me in for two boxes, please.

Best regards,

Steve Dupey

[Phil Hudson]

Did I miss a post that stated the price? I might be interested but couldn't find it.

[badbluesman]

UPDATE:

I have now heard from two dealers. Kodak's minimum order for a special run has gone up since the last time I did this: 125 boxes of 50 sheets (compared with 30 boxes of 100 sheets last time).

If we make that minimum, one dealer can sell it to us for $142.50 per 50-sheet box (the other dealer came in at $145). However, the second dealer can also get it for us for $150 per box without meeting the 125-box minimum.

I realize that this news will probably dampen many of your spirits- it certainly dampens mine to contemplate paying $3 per sheet when I previously paid .80 cents per sheet in 2002. I am starting to consider going with HP-5 at $1.64 per sheet or Tri-X at $2.37 per sheet, in combination with a slower film for outdoor shooting (FP-4 is only $1.48 per sheet). But I have not made up my mind, yet.

If we do the order, everyone will place their own order and pay separately. The dealer with the lowest price ($142.50 per box) will need full payment in advance. The other dealer, who can get us film without making the minimum for $150 per box, requires 50 percent payment in advance. Kodak says 4-6 weeks for delivery.

All of you who emailed me with a potential order, please let me know how much film you would definitely want (in 50-sheet boxes). Also if you have decided not to order any film, please let me know. I will send an email with this same text to everyone who emailed me. Please let me know: joelpickford@yahoo.com

[Allen in Montreal]

Thank you for the work you have put in to this Joel.
I started to go through this for TXP and gave up on the project once I started to use the new (post 2007) TXP.
Kodak generally speaking, has the best products,
but the front office sucks!
I was once the biggest pro Kodak person in my circle of friends, but they are really making it hard to stay loyal.

I pay 2 dollars a sheet for HP-5 in Montreal now,
at 3 dollars a sheet for T-4 I am still in for some,
Kodak wins by the "hostage factor".

[cdholden]

TMY can be had for about $2.60/sheet if you're willing to cut down 8x10... and it's available without a large minimum order.
While I would like to see boxes of 5x7 available, cost is an important factor in purchasing decisions for many people.

[Steve Sherman]

On the chance anyone wants the 5x7 Tmax 400 I had purchased 18 months ago and was frozen immediately. I have four 50 sheet boxes all same emulsion # and dated 3 / 2011 and unopened I will sell for half price.

PM if interested.

[cdholden]

pm sent!

[Allen in Montreal]

On the chance anyone wants the 5x7 Tmax 400 I had purchased 18 months ago and was frozen immediately. I have four 50 sheet boxes all same emulsion # and dated 3 / 2011 and unopened I will sell for half price.

PM if interested.

ACK!
If it is not all gone Steve....pls keep me in mind. :) :)

[badbluesman]

Just for the heck of it, I sent an email to Kodak expressing my professional disappointment that they have chosen to offer Tri-X instead of T-Max 400 in 5x7 and giving them reasons why I think they should reverse that policy. I know it is futile to send missives of this kind to corporate America, but I always do anyway. I figure it is my right as a loyal, decades-long customer.

[Steve Hamley]

Just for the heck of it, I sent an email to Kodak expressing my professional disappointment that they have chosen to offer Tri-X instead of T-Max 400 in 5x7 and giving them reasons why I think they should reverse that policy. I know it is futile to send missives of this kind to corporate America, but I always do anyway. I figure it is my right as a loyal, decades-long customer.

I understand Kodak's decision: No matter what single emulsion they offer for a given run, there will be an equal number of people unhappy that they didn't offer the other emulsion. I suspect the reason they don't offer both is there isn't enough demand to keep them from ending up with a bunch of expired film in the "pipe" that they end up taking a loss on.

Cheers, Steve

[Ken Lee]

Suffice it to say, we appreciate the support we get from Ilford.

[mdm]

I understand Kodak's decision: No matter what single emulsion they offer for a given run, there will be an equal number of people unhappy that they didn't offer the other emulsion. I suspect the reason they don't offer both is there isn't enough demand to keep them from ending up with a bunch of expired film in the "pipe" that they end up taking a loss on.

Cheers, Steve

I don't, because we are talking here about a big guaranteed order, there is no stock to be held by Kodak. The purchaser carries the risk of expired stock. All they have to do is cut some film they already have in stock, and they are already set up to cut 5x7 film.

What they are doing is taking advantage of their most loyal customer base, who want to use TMY in 5x7, because they can get it nowhere else. But there is a substitute available for half the price, not the same exactly but acceptable, so I say stuff em. Someone is making a rent from the transaction. Of course the reseller is probably not without blame either. I won't be giving the big yellow god my money, at least until they come back down to earth.

David

[Robert Hughes]

How long does it take a company to reset its machines to cut 5x7 instead of some other size? Probably about: 2 men, a half hour setup time and another 2 hours to verify it's perfect. All else is pure profit for Kodak.

[badbluesman]

FINAL UPDATE

I have not heard back from most of the people who originally sent me emails committing to one or more boxes of TMY 5x7. Those few who have replied either dropped out or asked for a smaller number of boxes. So at this point I am giving up on the special order idea as we are nowhere near the minimum number of boxes. I will let both dealers know.

If anyone has TMY 5x7 to sell or wants to get an order together in the future, you know where to find me: joelpickford@yahoo.com

[Allen in Montreal]

(sorry Gents, I feel a rant coming on!)


Just for the heck of it, I sent an email to Kodak expressing my professional disappointment that they have chosen to offer Tri-X instead of T-Max 400 in 5x7 and giving them reasons why I think they should reverse that policy. I know it is futile to send missives of this kind to corporate America, but I always do anyway. I figure it is my right as a loyal, decades-long customer.

When my old stock TXP ran out, and I started to fumble through the new version of the film and the problems getting 5x7 TXP, I called head office too. The calls were met with people who promised to get to the bottom of why the CDN distributor was forcing me to order 10 boxes or more. After a few calls, I gave up. because nothing was being done.

I gave up on TXP in sheets and I gave on "Old Faithful's" 1-800 customer service help line. The very people who once helped walk me through filtering many lighting issues on location, could not even get a box of film in my hand anymore.



I understand Kodak's decision: No matter what single emulsion they offer for a given run, there will be an equal number of people unhappy that they didn't offer the other emulsion. I suspect the reason they don't offer both is there isn't enough demand to keep them from ending up with a bunch of expired film in the "pipe" that they end up taking a loss on.

Cheers, Steve

Kodak has shown great inconsistency in the message it sends us, one minute it is all Tmax and then other it is not.
Which emulsion do they want to market? In which formats?



Suffice it to say, we appreciate the support we get from Ilford.

I hate to say it, I feel like I am turning my back on the company I lived by for 30 years, but Old Yellow is all over the map and The British White Box is rock steady albeit with tight and narrow product line. They put 5x7 in my hand one box at time if I wish.. Accent on the IF I WISH.
The White Box is winning over shooter's loyalty one box at a time.
What is the old saying, watch the pennies, the dollars will take care of themselves!!
Kodak is after the only the golden ring and is loosing sight of the total sum value of the single shooter.



FINAL UPDATE

I have not heard back from most of the people who originally sent me emails committing to one or more boxes of TMY 5x7. Those few who have replied either dropped out or asked for a smaller number of boxes. So at this point I am giving up on the special order idea as we are nowhere near the minimum number of boxes. I will let both dealers know.

If anyone has TMY 5x7 to sell or wants to get an order together in the future, you know where to find me: joelpickford@yahoo.com


And this is the end result of Kodak's bad business practices.
They can blame digital all they want, but at the end of the day, it is only Big Yellow itself that is driving their remaining and long time loyal customers away, one at a time.

I don't want to leave Kodak behind, but what choice do they really leave you?

I am going in to the dark to print tonight, I am printing an HP-5 negative.
My father must be spinning in his grave at the thought! :mad:

[mdm]

Thank you for all of your work, Joel. I think that the most sensible way to do it may just be to cut down 8x10 film because at 40c a sheet, a cutter may pay for itself quickly enough, and in any case will mean you dont have to carry a huge stock. Pain in the arse though. For me it makes sense to go with a cheaper option.

Thank you.
David