about to take the plunge...

[james morgan]

i've been surfing this forum for a while to soak up as much info as i can on the whole subject of large format photography. and i gotta say, you guys are very knowledgeable and helpful.

anyway, i think i'm ready to get into it... but i have several questions that i hope to get answers that'll hopefully lessen the impact of the initial plunge.

but first, a little background... (sorry, i can see this first post is going to be long...)

i've been shooting 35mm for years, but lately i've been getting more and more projects to shoot artworks ranging from smallish to 30"x40". i'm shooting with a canon t1i, so the smaller prints aren't a problem. but anything larger than 16"x20" means i have to shoot multiples and stitch in photoshop. this gets a bit tedious when i have to do more than 2 shots per artwork.

so i was thinking of using a 4x5 with the dslr attachment in order to keep my multiple shots on the same plane to simplify the stitching process. i am not sure how well this would work... but i figured that i should start simple, and work with what i have to help me bridge over to large format photography. (eventually i will be getting the betterlight digi back - just not too feasible at the moment.)

so here're my questions:

1. how many shots would i need to shoot with my t1i to cover the entire image circle of the 4x5 image? (hope this makes sense)

2. would i be able to take all the required frames by just using the rise/shift of the rear standard alone? or do i need to move the camera to shoot a 30"x40" print?

3. what lens would work best for my kind of work? 210mm? 150mm? wider?

4. should i start with a sinar P, sinar F or a cambo scx? (these are available on the auction site for under 800). or should i get a totally different camera altogether?

i hope this is not too crazy an idea... i know someone would let me know if it is. :)

and i thank you in advance for any advice you have to contribute.

jimmy

[Ben Syverson]

Hi Jimmy,

It is just not realistic to try to cover 4x5 with stitched images from the T1i, unfortunately. To cover, you would need 120mm / 22.3mm x 100mm / 15mm = 6x7 = 42 images. In reality you would want more overlap, so that's at least 7x8, or 56 images.

There are sliding digital backs for 4x5, and you could combine those with front movements, but realistically, you can't expect to get 56 images without human error creeping in.

Here are two much better options.

1) Shoot 4x5 film! Haha. Yeah, you saw this coming. Instead of taking 56 pictures, insert a sheet of 4x5 film into the camera and take one picture. With a decent (decent doesn't mean expensive) lens and scanner, you can easily go way, way over 16x20. Easily 30x40.

2) Get a scanning digital back. These things are crazy cheap these days! No one wants to wait around for a scanning back to do its thing. The client wants the photog to rent a Canon 5D Mark II so they can see the results as they're shot on the plasma screen. Well, sucks for them, because if they waited two minutes they could have a perfect 48 megapixel image.

In terms of the lens, you want something that was designed for what you want to do: copying. You want a process lens. Look for lenses that are fairly symmetrical, ideally plasmat variants. Anything marked "APO" will be great. I'm not an artwork reproduction guy, but I think you want something fairly long (ie, 210 or above).

Good luck, and welcome!

[james morgan]

thanks very much for your input, ben. i see that it is kinda ridiculous to stitch so many frames.

and yes, i did look at shooting film... that might be the way to go until i can get the digital back. btw, where can i get those for "crazy cheap", coz the lowest end better light 4x5 digi back is about $10k?

and do you have any recs on the camera options - between the sinar p, sinar f and the cambo scx. and thanks for the rec on the lens... i'll try to get the apo 210mm.

thanks again.

jimmy

[Ben Syverson]

The older scanning backs can be found for as low as $1000 if you look around... Like drum scanners, they're often cumbersome and have to be tethered to an ancient PC, but that makes them pretty good deals!

[james morgan]

wow! i can afford $1000... are these 4x5 scanning backs? what brands? i can definitely search for them... gawd knows i can use one. i don't mind being tethered... i shoot indoors in a studio-type setup.

please point me in the direction i need to search. thanks.

[Ben Syverson]

I would just keep your eyes open on eBay and here... They're a little bit rare (this was an ultra niche item to begin with), but when they do come up, they don't go for much. I don't know all the brands, but Better Light is only one of them...

The thing about these scanning backs is that they're pretty simple. If you're technically inclined, you can even make one (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.5.6941&rep=rep1&type=pdf) [PDF link]

[james morgan]

thanks so much, ben - this is fascinating...

i followed down the track of making my own scanner backs, and there are several ways to do it. one of them is to use a regular flatbed scanner and attach that to the back of the camera. since i have no experience with large format cameras, is it possible to completely remove the back of the ground glass and have the scanner glass on the same focal plane to capture a sharp image?

now i'm looking at getting an 8x10 camera instead of a 4x5, so i can slap on an 8 1/2 x 11 scanner... but i don't know if this will work.

jimmy

[Ben Syverson]

Jimmy, there are plenty of junker 8x10s out there that would be good candidates for scanner cam projects (Kodak 2Ds, Calumet monorails, etc).

If you read the PDF, they replaced the back with the scanner completely, so they focus by doing very small targeted scans. If you want to maintain the ability to use sheet film, you may need to get a bit more creative.

Also, at this point I am compelled to reiterate that shooting a sheet of 4x5 or 8x10 and then scanning is, in relative terms, much easier. :) There are plenty of people here who do artwork reproduction and could answer any questions you may have about working with sheet film...

[jp]

Seeming that most cheap flatbed scanners can't get all the detail out of an 8x10 (or even 4x5) image, I would heed Ben's advice here and believe the best quality is obtained with big film and having the film scanned via a choice of scanners depending on the output needs. (Scan it with a v700/750 if you're paying for it, or a drum scanner if someone else is paying for image quality)

I don't know what sort of artwork you are shooting, but I have shot photos of painterly 16x20 ish inch tempera and oil paintings with my nikon d300 and 50 1.4 d-af, printed them on my epson 7600 and have zero loss of visible detail right down to the texture when printed 1:1. Using a crisp lens with no "character" is probably more important than megapixels; don't use a zoom. It depends on what you are shooting as to what level of detail you need. Something with fine lines might require LF, but something slightly impressionist might not.

Still, scanner backs sounds like a very cool project and I read with great interest anytime someone puts a scanner into use as a LF image sensor. I'd probably buy two scanners to make two identical backs. One I would gut except for the glass and frost or sandblast it. The other would be the sensor. Then I'd have the ability to compose and focus without needing a laptop.

[adonis_abril]

You can also get a panoramic head with your digicam and start stitching away to get that kind of resolution...no camera movements, however.

Another option is to get a high resolution camera with tilt-shifting lens, this has some limited movements and you'll be using the tilt/shift to capture mutiple images (3 on on the easier method all the way up to 5) and stitch the images. The aspect ratio turns out to be close to 4x5 and this can yield up 50 megapixels and probably enough for 30x40 print with some minor interpolation. I do this with a 5D MK II (45mm TS-E and 90mm TS-E).

You can also acquire a Cambo X-2 and attach your digital camera to it. It uses specialized lenses, i believe, that's more suited to 35mm cameras than LF Lenses.

Or as mentioned, shoot film. You can't get the same tonality as you can with your digital when shooting Fuji Slides. You should be able to get drum scanners on the cheap nowadays...I shoot Velvia and drum scan with a Screen DTS-30ai.

[james morgan]

thanks very much for all your replies, guys.

after some more research on the scanner large format rig, i don't think this would work as well due to the artifacts and color issues from the contact image sensor.

film is not an option because the turnaround time for processing is too long... i need to be able to review and re-shoot as needed (okay, i'm a spoiled digi brat).

and, adonis... cambo x-2 and t/s lenses are a little over budget for me right now.

soooooo, i'm opting to fall back onto getting a 4x5, attaching my t1i (500D) to the back and stitching. after some calculations, it looks like all i'll need are 4-6 stitches with overlaps for a 30" x 40" original, because i can get 6144 x 4096 (24"x16" at 256 dpi) with my t1i. and fewer frames for smaller originals. so, i don't think i'll need to have the image circle cover the entire back of the 4x5 to get the image i need.

anyway, before i take the plunge and start buying, i have more questions... mainly on cameras and lenses.

a) camera - i've narrowed my choices down to getting a sinar, but what's the difference between the sinar f1 and the sinar p? other than price, are the movements and dials of the f1 adequate for studio repro work? ie: smooth and fine.

b) movement - how much rise/fall and shifts can i get from the rear standard of a 4x5? 2-3 inches each direction? i'm not concerned about the front standard coz i would have the lens in a fixed lock-down, but i would need to be able to move and position my camera "back" about 75mm left/right and 50mm up/down to take multiple frames and stitch.

c) would a barrel lens or one without shutter work for me? they are so much cheaper than ones with a copal. (i will use the digi's shutter)

d) focal length - my understanding is that a 4x5 focal length is roughly equivalent to 1/3 of 35mm - so a 210mm would be about the same as a 70mm. but is that the case if i attach a digi camera to the back of the 4x5 since my focal plane is now further back? would that lengthen the focal length? if so, by how much?

e) lens type - i have read that using medium format lenses like the ones for mamiya rz would yield a sharper and brighter image. is that true? do i need to look into going that route, or should i start off by using an apo lens for a 4x5?

thanks again for all your help so far. can't wait to take the plunge...

jimmy