PDA

View Full Version : What's another word for "fluid" ounces?



William McEwen
26-May-2010, 12:43
OK, those of you who have been following my sad tale know some of this --

Zone VI Hypo, conveniently packaged in a powder pre-measured to make one gallon of working solution, is no longer available.

So I took Richard Ritter's advice about measuring bulk powder. Instead of buying a scale, just scoop out the same amount that was in the Zone VI package.

So I measured my last Zone VI package. I poured the powder into a graduate. It was about 13.5 ounces.

Yesterday I ordered five pounds from Photographer's Formulary, and filled out and faxed the "DEA Authorized Buyer Form" and e-mailed them a scan of my driver's license.

I just received a voice mail from PF. They are VERY unhappy with me. Apparently I didn't go into enough detail. "Photographic printing" in response to purpose is not detailed enough.

And they were very unhappy that I referred to my 13.5 ounces of hypo as "fluid" ounces.

Anyway, the correct term escapes me. If it isn't ounces by weight, what is it?

Some of you recommended The Chemistry Store and Artcraft Chemicals. Do you need to jump through hoops to buy from them, too? I realize PF is following regulations, but come on, I've never had to give away personal information to buy hypo.

I'm going to let the lady at PF calm down a little before I call her back.

Thanks!

Kevin Crisp
26-May-2010, 12:53
If it is a dry powder or crystal just describe it by weight. Pounds, ounces, grams, grains or whatever, or go metric. Fluid ounces is a measurement of volume, not weight, and impies that the product is liquid, which might cause shipping problems.

Curt Palm
26-May-2010, 13:09
fill out the form based on weight of the powder, if you still have the Zone VI packaging it should have the weight of the contents listed on it.

I don't think they care how you measure the weight of the powder when you mix it -either by a scale, or how you have chosen, using the surrogate of measuring its volume.

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 13:09
If it is a dry powder or crystal just describe it by weight. Pounds, ounces, grams, grains or whatever, or go metric.


I wish I'd weighed that last package of hypo. :(

Vaughn
26-May-2010, 13:11
Try "dry ounces by volume" instead of fluid ounces. Size of the Sodium thiosulfate crystals might make the measurement by volume a little variable, but mixing hypo is not rocket science either. Close enough is good enough.

Their site says you only have to fill out the form is you also order silver nitrate at the same time. Don't know why you had to fill it out -- or even say how much you plan on using and for what specific photographic purpose. Odd.

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 13:13
if you still have the Zone VI packaging it should have the weight of the contents listed on it.



I still have the label, and it doesn't list the weight.

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 13:17
Try "dry ounces by volume" instead of fluid ounces.

VAUGHN, YOU ARE MY HERO. Dry ounces by volume. Poetry! Thank you VERY much.

Eric Woodbury
26-May-2010, 13:27
If you are just buying sodium thiosulfate penta, try a pool supply store. I buy 50# bags for a little over a buck a pound.

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 13:33
OK, I just got off the phone with PF. This has been interesting!

I HAVE to list weight. No choice. Sorry Vaughn, your "dry ounces by volume," which I thought was brilliant, is insufficient. And she is not allowed to tell me what to write under "purpose."

BarryS
26-May-2010, 13:51
Man, this seems way more complicated than necessary! Why don't you fill in the following under purpose.

Film and paper fixer

240 grams Sodium Thiosulfate
add distilled water to a total volume of 1000 ml

Ash
26-May-2010, 14:00
floz

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 14:02
Man, this seems way more complicated than necessary! Why don't you fill in the following under purpose.

Film and paper fixer

240 grams Sodium Thiosulfate
add distilled water to a total volume of 1000 ml

Agreed, Barry! I'll use that for my "mixing recipe." Thanks! Under purpose, I'm going to write "fixing black and white fiber-based photographic paper." I think that will be sufficient.

Also, she informed me that she cannot send it to the address I listed on my order form. They are not allowed to send it to an address that is different than my driver's license. I told her I didn't want it to sit out in the hot sun on my doorstep all day, and she said that's not a problem because it's a crystal.

I know she's just "doing her job," but I'm going a little nuts.

cdholden
26-May-2010, 14:12
Artcraft has no problems with shipping to my warehouse/office. I don't live there.
Is it PF being complicated or just the individual you dealt with?

Gem Singer
26-May-2010, 14:19
William,

Why don't you merely order the Sodium Thiosulfate from Mike, at Artcraft Chemicals.

He's a great guy to deal with and will be grateful to receive your order.

I purchase my pre-mixed chemicals from the Photographer's Formulary.

The Formulary would rather sell them that way.

Artcraft, on the other hand, mostly sells bulk chemicals.

Mike has told me that the Photoformulary sometimes purchases bulk chemistry from him to make their developer kits.

Bruce Watson
26-May-2010, 14:23
This is sad. Yet another failure of our educational system. And I'm not picking on you -- my own mother would share your frustration, as would the vast majority of Americans. All because our educational system fails to teach its students even the rudiments of weights and measures.

Weight and volume don't describe the same physical property, and therefore can't be used interchangeably. One generally can't accurately measure the volume of a solid in powder form -- because the powder can usually be compressed. One can't directly measure mass, but in a gravity well one can fairly easily measure weight. Using weight as a descriptor makes somewhat better sense for your purpose even though it's unlikely that gravity will be the same where you are and where the Formulary is. But it'll be close enough.

When I was in engineering school way back in 1902, I got lecture after lecture by the administration about engineers not taking enough humanities courses (as if we got any free electives, but that's another discussion). That it was our fault that the general public didn't understand what engineers did, and why. My thought was that perhaps it was just the opposite. That the students in the humanities programs needed more science and engineering courses so they could better understand the world they live in. So they'd have a clue how their refrigerator worked, or their car, or what happens when they flick a light switch, or what happens when food cooks.

Over the ensuing decades I've seen many examples, like this one, that illustrate my point. But it never makes me feel any better. Sigh...

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 14:28
I purchase my pre-mixed chemicals from the Photographer's Formulary.

Hi, Dr. Singer. I didn't realize pre-packaged hypo was an option. Only bulk hypo seems to be available on the Web site.

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 14:30
Artcraft has no problems with shipping to my warehouse/office. I don't live there.
Is it PF being complicated or just the individual you dealt with?

Hi, CD: I think the individual is just following company procedure, and she doesn't like it any more than I do.

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 14:39
This is sad. Yet another failure of our educational system. And I'm not picking on you -- my own mother would share your frustration, as would the vast majority of Americans. All because our educational system fails to teach its students even the rudiments of weights and measures.

Weight and volume don't describe the same physical property, and therefore can't be used interchangeably. One generally can't accurately measure the volume of a solid in powder form -- because the powder can usually be compressed. One can't directly measure mass, but in a gravity well one can fairly easily measure weight. Using weight as a descriptor makes somewhat better sense for your purpose even though it's unlikely that gravity will be the same where you are and where the Formulary is. But it'll be close enough.

When I was in engineering school way back in 1902, I got lecture after lecture by the administration about engineers not taking enough humanities courses (as if we got any free electives, but that's another discussion). That it was our fault that the general public didn't understand what engineers did, and why. My thought was that perhaps it was just the opposite. That the students in the humanities programs needed more science and engineering courses so they could better understand the world they live in. So they'd have a clue how their refrigerator worked, or their car, or what happens when they flick a light switch, or what happens when food cooks.

Over the ensuing decades I've seen many examples, like this one, that illustrate my point. But it never makes me feel any better. Sigh...

Thanks for this, Bruce, and you're not picking on anyone.

I was never comfortable with the loosy-goosy "dry ounces by volume" system of measurement, especially after I poured the Zone VI powder into the graduate and saw it take a while to settle, and had a heck of a time getting the stuff to lie even for an accurate measurement.

In earlier posts, I complained about no longer being able to get the pre-measured packets of Zone VI hypo and hated the fact that I'd have to buy a scale. I want less equipment, not more!

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 14:54
floz

Ash, that is wonderfully funny, but if you were here, I would have to hit you.

Ash
26-May-2010, 15:06
So long as you don't hit my left arm, being hit by a car on monday left it damaged enough!

William McEwen
26-May-2010, 15:08
So long as you don't hit my left arm, being hit by a car on monday left it damaged enough!

Youch! Sorry to hear that. Was it some crazy American driving on the wrong side of the road?

Howard Tanger
26-May-2010, 15:08
...


When I was in engineering school way back in 1902...

Bruce, that would make you at least "108 years old" this year??? Howard

Heroique
26-May-2010, 15:16
Whoops. Bruce meant 1920, not 1902. ;)


...I'm going to let the lady at PF calm down a little before I call her back...

Forwarding Bruce’s excellent reply will do the trick, and enlighten their customer service.

J D Clark
26-May-2010, 16:28
I'm a chemist by training (Ph.D., 1986), so let me clarify. Even if you measure a powder in a graduate, and declare the number of "ounces by volume," it could be a wildly different amount from a different powder of the same chemical. The difference comes from the size and packing of the granules.

So, powders are measured by grams, or ounces (as in, 16 ounces in a pound). Liquids are measured by liters or milliliters, or ounces as in 32 ounces in a quart. The two types of ounces are correlated in only one way: one fluid ounce of water weighs one [solid] ounce. For other materials, it's not necessarily the same.

That said, the concentration for hypo is not that critical. So, for Barry's formula above (240 grams diluted to 1L water), for the metric-adverse, it's roughly equivalent to 8.5 ounces (from a balance) in a quart of water.

John Clark
www.johndclark.com

J D Clark
26-May-2010, 16:34
In earlier posts, I complained about no longer being able to get the pre-measured packets of Zone VI hypo and hated the fact that I'd have to buy a scale. I want less equipment, not more!

So, clearly I type a lot slower than Bruce! Anyway, you don't necessarily have to buy a scale. The exact quantity for this fixer is so non-critical that I believe you could use five handfuls of hypo, or if two heaping tablespoons equal a "handful," then 10 heaping tablespoons.

Some photographers just use a big scoop without carefully measuring it. You just want to use the appoximate "size" of the powder that came from Zone VI in the amount of water they recommend -- no balance necessary.

That said, I wouldn't formulate developers that way...

John Clark
www.johndclark.com

Eric Woodbury
26-May-2010, 16:41
"A pint's a pound, the world around."

I know that hypo is denser than water, but over the years, the penta form has been fairly invariant in density and thus volume measures are pretty consistant. I throw a cup of hypo in the tray and add a graduate of water. Seems to work.

Helen Bach
26-May-2010, 17:10
one fluid ounce of water weighs one [solid] ounce.

Only for imperial fluid ounces, if you wish to be dead-on accurate. The slightly larger US fluid ounce of water has a mass ("weight" if you prefer) of 1.041 ounces ("avoirdupois" ounces, which apply to solids, liquids and gasses). None of this matters much really.

Best,
Helen

Gem Singer
26-May-2010, 17:17
Hey William,

Read my post again. I didn't say pre-packaged. I said pre-mixed.

Such as: Photo Formulary Pyrocat-HD Developer in Glycol, TF-5 Alkaline Fixer(in 1 gal containers), and Formaflo Wetting Agent.

I recommend purchasing bulk chemicals from a chemical supply company instead of the Photographer's Formulary.

J D Clark
26-May-2010, 18:09
Only for imperial fluid ounces, if you wish to be dead-on accurate. The slightly larger US fluid ounce of water has a mass ("weight" if you prefer) of 1.041 ounces ("avoirdupois" ounces, which apply to solids, liquids and gasses). None of this matters much really.

Best,
Helen


Doh! Of course. Scientifically, we always use grams and milliliters -- much easier. No wonder everyone ends up confused. In any case, the difference between an imperial ounce and a US fluid ounce doesn't make a difference here, and I stand by the "coupla' handfulls of hypo" method...

John Clark
www.johndclark.com

Robert Hughes
27-May-2010, 09:15
I stand by the "coupla' handfulls of hypo" method...
Not me! I just got a gram scale at a local yard sale - for $2, yeah. Now I need to figure out how to drive it...

Bruce Watson
27-May-2010, 10:52
Bruce, that would make you at least "108 years old" this year??? Howard

Sorry -- inside joke. The date 1902 is shorthand for "so long ago I'm embarrassed to admit how long ago it really was."

imagedowser
27-May-2010, 11:21
Another vote for Mike at Artcraft. Met him at Eddie's wet plate waltz, good dude...

Doremus Scudder
28-May-2010, 04:07
William,

I still don't really understand why you are taking this tack to get your fixer.

I do understand the convenience of the now-defunct Zone VI packaging. I also understand that you don't wish to weigh powders. Fair enough.

So, why not buy a 5-liter bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix and a cheapie graduated cylinder (which you likely have already). Then you can easily measure out a few ounces (fluid) of fixer concentrate and mix it with 4 or 9 parts of water and, voilá, fixer that works for everything!

You don't need plain hypo for the second fix before toning. It simply isn't true, I tone directly after a second fixing bath of 1+9 rapid fixer without intermediate rinse, no problems. Plus, the rapid fixer will save you time (much more time than you spend mixing it, and certainly more time than you've spend "dealing" with PF, plus you don't have to have a hazmat license on file to order it from Freestyle. Maybe you can even get it at your local photo store).

Just get some rapid fix and try it; you'll like it!

Best,

Doremus Scudder

Jim Noel
28-May-2010, 09:13
If you are just buying sodium thiosulfate penta, try a pool supply store. I buy 50# bags for a little over a buck a pound.

What is its use in a pool? The pool supply people around her have no idea what is in their chemicals w/o reading the labels and/or MSDS. Perhaps if I tell them its purpose in the pool they will be of more help.
Thanks,
Jim

Eric Woodbury
28-May-2010, 09:33
Sodium thiosulfate lowers chlorine. They will have a bottle of the stuff that is about a kilo for $10 and then you can order big bags. Go with a bag.

CG
28-May-2010, 15:07
I must be missing something. Hypo is a rather benign substance. Why are you bothering with a DEA form anyway? Are you buying something else that is more nasty?

Don't bother with the DEA forms unless you need them. And if you do really need to make out one, then just list everything by name and by weight. Do you have a formula for whatever it is you want to make?

William McEwen
28-May-2010, 17:45
CG, Photographer's Formulary will not sell hypo without the DEA form filled out just to their liking. My formula isn't special -- just stir it into distilled water to make a gallon of working solution.

CG
28-May-2010, 22:23
I am surprised. Sorry I thought you had done the forms unnecessarily. It's been quite a while since I last bought plain hypo. Not all that long ago I was able to buy hypo with no paperwork whatsoever.

I just looked at PF's site. Interesting. The various listing for different quantities of pentahydrate have what appear to be contradictions. The smaller size packagings - 10 gram and 100 gram pentahydrate demand one fill out DEA forms no matter what. The 1 lb and larger packagings seem to say that if hypo is purchased along with silver nitrate, then a DEA form must be filled out.

With larger quantities, PF's text goes like this:"Only when ordered in combination with Silver Nitrate then the DEA buyers form is required..." with
1 lb, 5 lb, 10 lb, 20 lb and 50 lb sizes.

And, with the really small sizes - 10 grams and 100 grams - their text says a DEA form is needed regardless. "No orders will be sent till the required paperwork is in."

So, a smaller quantity of hypo is of greater concern than a larger?

To me it looks like part of a trend of making it harder for honest people to do harmless things with benign substances like hypo, while really dangerous substance like gasoline are dispensed like water. For that matter, I don't get the hazard with small amounts of silver nitrate. The cost to amass dangerous quantities of nitrates for destructive intent by buying truckloads of silver nitrate seems likely to preclude huge purchases. And forms could be required for orders of silver nitrate that could add up to large amounts.

Wouldn't it make sense for the government to require DEA forms for single orders of maybe one or 5 or 10 or more pounds of silver nitrates or for rapid fire repeat small orders and leave the diddley one time orders for 10 or 100 grams alone?

I'm guessing that PF has found the government looking over their shoulder and that they are trying to do the right thing with a government that tosses out regulations with little thought. The government's intent seems right, but their execution too frequently is inept. Photographer's Formulary makes one of the largest arrays of necessary things available to photographers and that makes them very valuable to us. I hope interference from "above" doesn't deter us photographers from patronizing them.

CG
28-May-2010, 22:32
I bought silver nitrate not that long ago with no paperwork. Guess that will be no more.

dsphotog
29-May-2010, 02:08
I've heard rumors that illegal drug labs make use of some kind of photo chemicals.
Perhaps thats why someone is watching.

William McEwen
29-May-2010, 06:50
I pointed out to the PF that I've bought acetic acid from them and never had to fill out a DEA form. She said no DEA form is required for acetic acid.

CG
29-May-2010, 08:12
I've heard rumors that illegal drug labs make use of some kind of photo chemicals.
Perhaps thats why someone is watching.I'm assuming that is the case, but I'll bet they are buying massive quantities of whatever, or machine gunning tons of repeat small orders of the same thing. Not how photographers buy.