Dip and Dunk vs Inversion

[David de Gruyl]

In an effort to process more than two 8x10 negatives at once, I am transitioning to hangers / tanks. I have timing worked out for most of my chemicals and film combinations in an inversion tank environment.

So: Is there any real difference that I should know about when processing in tanks (and removing the film to agitate) when compared to inversion?

To clear up any confusion, I am currently using the HP combiplan - and will continue to for small batches of 4x5 - and BZTS tubes. The tubes I use by pouring chemistry into them to fill, and up-ending them on the counter. Mostly I do this to limit agitation, and reduce contrast. I was never satisfied with continuous agitation, but I am a Rodinal junkie.

[Gem Singer]

Hi David,

One suggestion I can offer for agitating film on hangers in the developer in deep tanks:

At each agitation, lift the hanger upward and tilt it forward (toward you) 45 degrees, or more. Slide the hanger back into the tank and lift it again. This time, tilt it backwards (away from you). Then back into the tank until the next agitation period.

This way, the film is bathed in developer over multiple directions. If you merely lift it straight up and down, you are risking the appearance of surge marks around the holes in the hangers.

Also, use continuous agitation for the first minute in the developer. Then intermittent agitation for the remaining time.

[David de Gruyl]

Thanks, that was my plan.

Do I need to account for the time I use pouring in / out of the small tank? In other words, It takes about 30-45 seconds to fill or drain the HP Combiplan. I don't normally worry about this, but converting my numbers, it might be a good idea to add this time (or part of it).

[John NYC]

An aside that I've always wondered about if someone wouldn't mind to enlighten me... why is it called "dip AND dunk" when these are basically synonyms? Why not just "dip processing" or "dunk processing"... or better yet "tank processing"?

[CG]

[QUOTE=John NYC;584700 ... why is it called "dip AND dunk" ... Why not just "dip processing" or "dunk processing"... [/QUOTE]More poetic?

[CG]

...Do I need to account for the time I use pouring in / out of the small tank? ... Since the agitation will be different, it's best to run a couple of test runs to get a time that works for the way you handle things. It wouldn't hurt to start with the time that has worked for you with the old tank, and then look at your results and adjust as needed.

[bob carnie]

To add to Gem's great advice, I always included a side to side tilt, so agitation in four directions.

Hi David,

One suggestion I can offer for agitating film on hangers in the developer in deep tanks:

At each agitation, lift the hanger upward and tilt it forward (toward you) 45 degrees, or more. Slide the hanger back into the tank and lift it again. This time, tilt it backwards (away from you). Then back into the tank until the next agitation period.

This way, the film is bathed in developer over multiple directions. If you merely lift it straight up and down, you are risking the appearance of surge marks around the holes in the hangers.

Also, use continuous agitation for the first minute in the developer. Then intermittent agitation for the remaining time.

[David de Gruyl]

Bob, that is how I do the inversion pattern for my Combiplan. I think I will go with that, it only seems reasonable.

[Daniel Stone]

try filling the tank BEFORE you put the film in, unless you don't have a darkroom and will be doing the inversion method with the combiplan

a friend of mine has had great luck with doing a Pre-Soak(about 2 min) before the developer, he uses a combiplan and hasn't had any problems with it since starting to use a water bath soaking/agitation

-Dan

[Andrew O'Neill]

At each agitation, lift the hanger upward and tilt it forward (toward you) 45 degrees, or more. Slide the hanger back into the tank and lift it again. This time, tilt it backwards (away from you). Then back into the tank until the next agitation period.

With 8x10 film be sure that the top edges of your tank are smooth, otherwise the film nearest these edges will rub and scratch. I found out the hardway.
8x10 film sags under the pressure of the developer when you move it around. Also, lifting and tilting the film to the right, dropping, and lifting then tilting to the left works well too.

[dsphotog]

Anyone using nitrogen burst?
When the local newspaper went digi, i obtained their Calumet D&D setup. It's a stainless sink/waterjacket, with 4 3.5 gal. tanks plus a wash tank.
The backspash is equip with water thermostat and nitrogen burst timer.
I need to get a nitrogen bottle before I can try it out.
As I understand it the gas burst does all the agitation.

[bob carnie]

Nitrogen burst is ok but can create more monsters if you do not balance the burst to give even distribution across the film.
Very difficult to get a even grey background density on all four sheets of film.
Not saying it can't be done , but very difficult


Anyone using nitrogen burst?
When the local newspaper went digi, i obtained their Calumet D&D setup. It's a stainless sink/waterjacket, with 4 3.5 gal. tanks plus a wash tank.
The backspash is equip with water thermostat and nitrogen burst timer.
I need to get a nitrogen bottle before I can try it out.

[dsphotog]

Interesting....Is that controlled by adjusting the time duration of the bursts?
Or positioning of the hangers in the tanks? There's no adjustment on the gas distribution plenum at the bottom of the tanks.

[tgtaylor]

I did "dip n dunk" for 4x5 Rollie IR for the first time 2 weeks ago using 3 Kodak hard Rubber tanks and hangers that I purchased off this site. After seeing the results, I don't think that I will be going back to the hand inversion method - really excellent results despite the fact that it took me 1/2 the developing time (14 minutes) before I started putting the holders (5) back in the tank evenly. (During the first 7 minutes one or two were going out the front or back instead of back in the developer and I truly expected to see a disaster when I turned on the lights.)

I filled tank 2 with developer (1800mL of solution is adequate) and tank 3 with fix and left tank 1 empty to place each hanger in it after loading the sheet. I had prefilled 2 beakers with 1800mL of tempered water with the idea that after the 5 sheets were in the empty tank to slowly pour water into the tank and let the sheets soak for 5 minutes. That part turned out great. But with the resulting problems of getting each hanger back down in the developer at the same time as the others (and my imagined scratches on the film from sliding over the front or back rims on the tank!) I decided to just use the soak water as the stop. As covered above, I slowly lifted the holders out of the developer and tilted to one side at at 45 degree angle to drain and then slowly placed them back in the developer and then immediately lifted them up again and tilted them at a 45 degree angle to the opposite side to drain and then placed them slowly straight down into the developer. Each inversion step (lifting, tilting to 1 side and back down then back up, tilting to the opposite side and back down) should take 15 to 20 seconds and your movements must be slow. The fix and wash steps can be more rapid and when you do you will clearly hear the solution draining from the film which you didn't hear when in the developer stage as you slowly lifted the hangers out (because of that I initially thought that I never quite lifted the holders completely out of the developer during some of the inversions). You can keep track of the tank by placing the bottom edge of you hands along the tanks edges as a guide and, at least with 4x5, you don't have to worry about the sheets getting scratched if the hangers are close together when you lift and replace.

It's a great method that delivers the results you're looking for. I'd be interested in hearing ones method of developing roll film on reels using the tanks.

Thomas

[Gem Singer]

Thomas,

You're on the right track.

No need to lift the hangers completely out of the tank. Lift them as a unit, and using the front and rear rims of the tank as pivot points, mere rotate the group of hangers back into the tank after tilting forward and backward.

Develop fewer films at a time, if possible. That way it isn't such a tight squeeze fitting the hangers back into the tank in the dark, and there's less risk of loosing a film hanger off to the side and scratching the film.

[Richard Wasserman]

I use 5x7 tanks for 4x5 film on hangers. The downside is that they require more chemistry, but 10 hangers fit comfortably and are easy to agitate. Darkroom work is just like getting to Carnegie Hall–practice, practice practice....

[CG]

... Develop fewer films at a time, if possible. That way it isn't such a tight squeeze fitting the hangers back into the tank in the dark ... That's why there are racks to hold the hangers.
The most common design holds the hangers just at the top.
A good image: http://glennview.com/jpgs/dkrm2/processing/tanks/810/racks/sheetfilm/big_1.jpg
And with hangers in it: http://glennview.com/jpgs/dkrm2/processing/tanks/810/racks/sheetfilm/small_2.jpg

Other designs for hanger racks have a more secure hold on the sides of the hangers and make a part or full load of hangers stay put nicely without swaying back and forth in the rack.

Here's one: http://sale91202.tripod.com/reboot/12//basket1.jpg my favorite design so far.

[Gem Singer]

CG,

I was referring to tgtaylor's post (#14).

He is using small Kodak hard rubber tanks for developing 4x5 film.

Very similar to the method that I am using for developing 4x5 and 5x7 sheet film on hangers in 1/2 gal. stainless steel tanks.

My tanks are narrow and can only hold a maximum of 6 hangers.

The racks that you are recommending are for developing 8x10 sheet film in 5 gallon deep tanks, and are usually used in large commercial labs.