Fitting a Graflex Crown with the correct 'type' lens

[cconte]

The best way to describe what I'm asking here is this: With SLR camera bodies, each manufacturer has its own mount. When I'm looking for lenses for my Nikon DSLR, I look for the correct 'mount' for it. That's how I know it will fit my camera body.

I'm just starting to use a Graflex Crown Graphic 4x5 with a Kodak Ektar 127mm lens. If I want to research other lenses for it, how do I know which ones will fit it?

[Frank_E]

the equivalent item to the "mount" with a DSLR is the lensboard on a view camera. Most cameras have a lensboard which is particular to that camera. There is some minor "standardization" because certain camera manufacturers have adopted the lensboard standard from another manufacturer. So you will find that a certain Linhof lensboard will fit many field cameras. Different lenses are mounted to the lensboard with mounting holes that vary in size. This is from memory so don't take this as gospel. To illustrate a copal 0 shutter is mounted with a hole which is about 31mm in diameter but a copal 1 shutter mounts into a hole about 40mm in diameter. So the trick is to find (or buy) a lensboard for your camera that has the correct sized mounting hole for the lens you plan to acquire. The other complication is that, putting aside the issue of the hole size for mounting, not every lens can be accomodated in every camera because of possible clearance problems. It should be intuitively obvious that a very large lens will likely not fit on a very small camera either because the camera doesn't have sufficient clearance or because it can't support the weight. Then the final issue is focal length. Not every camera has sufficient bellows length to accomodate long focal length lenses (ie the problem usually arises after about 250mm focal length).

So the easiest way to make sure that the lens will fit your camera is to ask someone who shoots with the same camera...

good luck, and enjoy

[cconte]

Thank you for the explanation. It seems very complicated (at this point) for me. I like your suggestion about finding others who shoot the same camera- that's something I can do! More than likely, I'll just wait until I understand alot more about the camera before venturing in that direction. I sure do appreciate your input.

[David de Gruyl]

One more wrinkle: If you plan on using the rangefinder with the new lens, you need to have the cam for that length. Once you do, you need to change the cam, switch the lens, and adjust the infinity stops. Then you are good to go for the new focal length.

If you are changing the particular lens, you may still have to change the infinity stops because of differences in lens designs even if the lenses are theoretically the same length. For example, the Nikkor-W 135/5.6 and the Schneider Xenar 135 have different infinity settings.

[cconte]

More useful information, but still a little over my head. I don't use the rangefinder because I don't know how to. I don't even know where it is! :eek: I guess I don't know what I don't know- but I will (in time), so thank you!

[dsphotog]

Take a look at,
www.graflex.org

Happy shooting!
David

[Dan Fromm]

cconte, visit www.graflex.org and read the FAQs.

Any lens whose flange-to-film distance is >= 52.5 mm and < around 275 mm will work on a 4x5 Crown Graphic.

David, some 4x5 Crowns were shipped with no rangefinder, some with a Kalart ("side") rangefinder, some with a Graflex ("top") RF. Only the top RF has cams. The Kalart has to be adjusted to a lens, in practice is for one lens only.

[Jack Dahlgren]

Thank you for the explanation. It seems very complicated (at this point) for me. I like your suggestion about finding others who shoot the same camera- that's something I can do! More than likely, I'll just wait until I understand alot more about the camera before venturing in that direction. I sure do appreciate your input.

It really is not that complicated. Most lenses are all designed to mount on a thin flat board with a hole in it. Graflex boards are specific to the camera brand, but the lens is not. You can unscrew the lens/shutter from one board and mount it on another with the right size hole.

I worked for 20 years with the same lens on my graflex. Don't be in a hurry to get a new lens until you have shot and developed a few boxes of film. LF photography is not for everyone. Until you have spent some time with it you won't know if you are going to continue with it and until you get past the learning curve you will not know which lenses you need.

It is common for LF photographers to use one lens for the majority of their photographs and there is a reason your camera is fitted with that lens, so be a bit patient.

[cconte]

Thank you Jack. I'll take your advice.

[engl]

Im in a similar situation to you, Ive not yet received my Crown Graphic but Ive been researching lens compatibility. If there are any mistakes here, please correct me!

Summing up and adding some, you will need to take the following into consideration when browsing for LF lenses:
1. Does the lens have a shutter? Some are sold "in barrel" for use on cameras that have a focal plane shutter. You will need a shutter in the lens.
2. Can you find a lens board that fits? The board has to fit the camera and the hole has to fit the lens, or rather, the shutter. Usually the lens board description will say "Copal #0" or "Copal #1" or something, that means the lens board hole fits lenses with a Copal shutter of that size (#0 and #1 are shutter sizes). You can find lens boards here:
http://www.skgrimes.com/lensboards/index.htm
3. Will the bellows of the camera be enough to allow proper focusing? Lenses beyond 250mm or so will be problematic on a Crown Graphic, giving you a a very far close-focus limit. Telephoto lenses (usually with "tele" in the name) will bypass this restriction.
4. Is there enough space inside the camera to fit the lens focused at infinity? Going by Dan Fromm's value, the lens needs a flange-to-film distance of over 52.5mm. There are many alternative names for flange-to-film distance, listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance
5. Does the lens have a sufficient image circle? The lens should have at least 160mm image circle, but more is better, allowing for movements as well as preventing dark corners at big apertures. 4x5 is the smallest LF format so any lens labeled for LF should work.
6. Is the lens small enough to fold into the Crown Graphic? This is by no means necessary, many lenses will be too big, but it will be handy. I dont know yet how to figure out if a lens will fit, you may try asking around.
7. Will it work with the rangefinder? This is not necessary for those using only the ground glass, but might be of interest to some shooters. Some Graphic cameras dont have a rangefinder at all, so it doesnt matter. Some have the side-mounted Kalart finder, this can be calibrated to work with pretty much any lens. Some have the top mounted rangefinder, to use this you need a cam matching the lens, which will be very difficult to find if not included.

The good news is there is a whole lot of lenses that meet critical requirements 1 to 5, its the odd or extreme ones that will be a problem.

[Jack Dahlgren]

Im in a similar situation to you, Ive not yet received my Crown Graphic but Ive been researching lens compatibility. If there are any mistakes here, please correct me!

2. Can you find a lens board that fits? The board has to fit the camera and the hole has to fit the lens, or rather, the shutter. Usually the lens board description will say "Copal #0" or "Copal #1" or something, that means the lens board hole fits lenses with a Copal shutter of that size (#0 and #1 are shutter sizes). You can find lens boards here:
http://www.skgrimes.com/lensboards/index.htm

You can find lens boards on ebay as well, or simply reuse the one you have. You can also fabricate them yourself if you have the skills. Some types are flat and easy to make. Grimes is going to be more expensive.


3. Will the bellows of the camera be enough to allow proper focusing? Lenses beyond 250mm or so will be problematic on a Crown Graphic, giving you a a very far close-focus limit. Telephoto lenses (usually with "tele" in the name) will bypass this restriction.

Telephoto lenses MAY fit, but even then you will be restricted. You aren't likely to be using a >400mm on that camera.


5. Does the lens have a sufficient image circle? The lens should have at least 160mm image circle, but more is better, allowing for movements as well as preventing dark corners at big apertures. 4x5 is the smallest LF format so any lens labeled for LF should work.

BEWARE: there are lenses for 2 1/4 x 3 1/4" which look like they would fit 4x5 but don't really cover. 101 and 105mm ektars would be an example. They were standard on the smaller graflexes. Older lenses are not typically labeled as being "for LF". That said, your crown doesn't have a whole lot of movements, so you don't need a lot of coverage.


The good news is there is a whole lot of lenses that meet critical requirements 1 to 5, its the odd or extreme ones that will be a problem.

Agreed. A crown is a press camera so try to keep to small, light and fast lenses if you want to use it as designed.

[Dan Fromm]

JD wrote "Telephoto lenses MAY fit, but even then you will be restricted. You aren't likely to be using a >400mm on that camera."

Jack, the longest "standard issue" lens for 4x5 Graphics (both flavors) was the 385/5.6 TeleOptar, also badged TeleRaptar. Schneider and Rodenstock also made teles in that focal length range that were sold for use on 4x5 Graphics. Hat shaped lens boards are possible. So, believe it are not, are extension tubes that go between front shutter and a barrel lens. One can do surprising things with short (relatively) cameras.

Your advice re coverage is too conservative. For all practical purposes, a Crown Graphic's only useful movement is a little front rise. Yes, there's provision by shift but most of the time this is severely limited by the struts that support the bed. And yes, the bed drops and the front standard tilts backwards to allow the front standard to be made vertical on the dropped bed. But the things have so little rise that this gives, with most focal lengths, front fall, often more than wanted.

I use Graphics, like them, but they have their limits. If one wants a view camera, that's what one should get, not a Graphic. The OP has stuck himself with a Graphic, telling him to scrap it and get a view camera would be cruel.

Your advice re small fast lenses is optimistic. I used to have a 6"/1.9 Dallmeyer Super Six, a fast normal lens for 4x5. It weighed 3 1/2 pounds, was too big to put in shutter so would have been useless on a Crown. People use 150/2.8 Xenotars in #3 shutters on Crowns, but a shutter whose top speed is 1/125 makes f/2.8 unusable most of the time. When you say fast, do you mean f/4.5?

Pacemaker Graphic boards are made of sheet metal, have a lip that fits in the front standard's light trap. I know some people who've bodged up wooden boards that fit, I've bodged cardboard and foamcore boards for light use, but practically speaking its best to buy the right boards as needed.

Cheers,

Dan

[Jack Dahlgren]

JD wrote "Telephoto lenses MAY fit, but even then you will be restricted. You aren't likely to be using a >400mm on that camera."

Jack, the longest "standard issue" lens for 4x5 Graphics (both flavors) was the 385/5.6 TeleOptar, also badged TeleRaptar. Schneider and Rodenstock also made teles in that focal length range that were sold for use on 4x5 Graphics. Hat shaped lens boards are possible. So, believe it are not, are extension tubes that go between front shutter and a barrel lens. One can do surprising things with short (relatively) cameras.

Isn't 385 less than 400? A lot of things are probable, but I'd hardly recommend that a first time user go out and try to fit a 600mm lens on that thing



Your advice re coverage is too conservative. For all practical purposes, a Crown Graphic's only useful movement is a little front rise. Yes, there's provision by shift but most of the time this is severely limited by the struts that support the bed. And yes, the bed drops and the front standard tilts backwards to allow the front standard to be made vertical on the dropped bed. But the things have so little rise that this gives, with most focal lengths, front fall, often more than wanted.

I thought I said that a Crown had very few movements so you don't need much coverage? Just pointing out that lenses designed for 2 1/4" x 3 1/4" are not what you want and that the lens is not going to be marked "FOR LARGE FORMAT ONLY".




I like them too. I have Anniversary and Pacemaker Speed Graphics. I did not mention scrapping anything. Rather I recommended to use it as is until he gets to know it.

[QUOTE]Your advice re small fast lenses is optimistic. I used to have a 6"/1.9 Dallmeyer Super Six, a fast normal lens for 4x5. It weighed 3 1/2 pounds, was too big to put in shutter so would have been useless on a Crown. People use 150/2.8 Xenotars in #3 shutters on Crowns, but a shutter whose top speed is 1/125 makes f/2.8 unusable most of the time. When you say fast, do you mean f/4.5?

Yes, 4.5 is reasonably fast for a press camera, not ultra-fast like a f/1.9. The "fast" adjectives follows "small" and "light" in the sentence so I think that would rule out a 3.5 pound lens before you even started. The classic lenses that came on the cameras are still among the best choices for them.


Pacemaker Graphic boards are made of sheet metal, have a lip that fits in the front standard's light trap. I know some people who've bodged up wooden boards that fit, I've bodged cardboard and foamcore boards for light use, but practically speaking its best to buy the right boards as needed.

Of course. And there is no shortage of those boards floating around. One does not need to have one specially fabricated.

Cheers!

[David de Gruyl]

The only caveat I have with respect to telephoto (or wide angle) lenses is that many are not simple tessar type lenses and will not allow the camera to close with the lens on. The lenses that came on these cameras were meant to be left on when folded (part of the "press camera" definition, in my mind). Also, you will have to use the ground glass to focus the long lenses, as they have minut depth of field.

(I am using telephoto to mean something different from long, by the way, essentially, it has a longer focal distance than the flange to film plane distance).

For lens boards: go ahead with the ebay knock offs. they are better than the originals.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

The choice is also made somewhat more complicated by shutters and what film stocks one will be shooting.

Lenses of the early press camera era don't have modern shutters, and the lens cells have different threads that won't fit modern shutters without expensive machine-shop adaptation. Lenses that originally fit Compur or Prontor shutters will swap into modern shutters although they still need an aperture scale. Your 127mm Ektar if mounted in a Supermatic, and anything mounted in a Graphex or Wollensak of that era won't directly fit anything modern, and the parts are unavailable except from old donor shutters. Happily, 60-70 year old Graphex or Supermatic shutters were quite robust (and even if sticking may often be cleaned well enough by simply soaking and swishing in lighter fluid to get results!). Keep in mind, however, that in most cases they don't any longer run precisely at their stated shutter speeds. Commonplace that shutter springs sag over time and that the speeds get slow (or fast). Many B&W or color negative films that have a lot of exposure latitude, and if shooting these materials, this may not matter so much.

Even with transparencies, an older shutter once cleaned and lubed may be consistent enough to get correct exposures on critical color transparency films, but you're going to need to know what the timing actually is at any given setting, so having a shutter professional cleaned and timed or DIY becomes part of the drill with buying used.

OTOH, I'd venture that the majority of Copal shutters from lenses of the past 20 years unless subjected to a lot of professional wear and tear, are going to be pretty darn close to the stated speeds up to 1/250. (Most will run slow on the highest speeds by about 1/2 stop). If they break altogether they can also be replaced with brand new ones.