Cheapest way to shoot 4x5? Film/developing

[engl]

I am about to receive my first large format camera, a 4x5 Crown Graphic. I have previously shot 35mm and MF film (6x6 TLR, 6x9 folder), but I have not developed myself.

While the price of admission isnt terribly high for LF gear, the cost per shot is relatively high, and Im not rich. Because of this, Id like to get the lowest possible cost per shot while learning, in order to get to know the format/camera/developing etc.

Self developed BW is pretty much given, considering my budget. I intend to scan these negatives on an Epson 4990 owned by a friend.

What Im unsure about is the cheapest film and development gear/strategy to use. Ive been reading around and my current plan is as follows:
Film: Fomapan 100 or ERA 100
Tank: HP Combi-Plan (Id really like to find one of these at a good price, I live in Sweden...)
Developer: Rodinal, 1:100, 1h stand developed (perhaps mix in Xtol?)

Is there anything about this that you think could be done considerably cheaper or better?

[Ron Marshall]

Arista, from Freestyle about the cheapest at $0.48/sheet.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/190145-Arista-EDU-Ultra-BandW-100-iso-4x5-50-sheets?cat_id=404

Get a Combi plan tank, some Xtol (1:3 is cheap), TF-4 fixer and Photoflow.

[Jack Dahlgren]

Cheapest method is tray development. Trays are cheap even in Sweden.

Whenever you switch film or chemistry you will have to relearn, so start with the chemistry and film you think you are going to use for a long time. Don't try to learn on one thing then switch to another.

If you are figuring out how to use the LF camera instead of just perfecting your development, then using printing paper as negatives could be cheaper and you get to use safelight instead of total darkness. Paper exposes around 6 ASA so it is slow, but will let you practice with movements etc. But your crown doesn't really have much in the way of movements... so might not be a big concern for you.

The cheapest way to learn is to be slow and mindful and make the most of every shot. When I go out I usually come back with 10 exposures in several hours.

[D. Bryant]

I am about to receive my first large format camera, a 4x5 Crown Graphic. I have previously shot 35mm and MF film (6x6 TLR, 6x9 folder), but I have not developed myself.

While the price of admission isnt terribly high for LF gear, the cost per shot is relatively high, and Im not rich. Because of this, Id like to get the lowest possible cost per shot while learning, in order to get to know the format/camera/developing etc.

Self developed BW is pretty much given, considering my budget. I intend to scan these negatives on an Epson 4990 owned by a friend.

What Im unsure about is the cheapest film and development gear/strategy to use. Ive been reading around and my current plan is as follows:
Film: Fomapan 100 or ERA 100
Tank: HP Combi-Plan (Id really like to find one of these at a good price, I live in Sweden...)
Developer: Rodinal, 1:100, 1h stand developed (perhaps mix in Xtol?)

Is there anything about this that you think could be done considerably cheaper or better?

The cheapest way is just to not worry about film or film holders!

Now you might think I'm fibbing but I know a photographer here locally that has some of the finest LF and MF hardware around but never loads film in his camera!!

Don Bryant

[stevebrot]

I am in the situation you are. I have assembled my 4x5 kit and have been shooting 120 roll film because I have daylight tanks for that format. For 4x5 I plan on buying Arista student film from Freestyle (initially) and doing tray development using a home-built "slosher" (See LINK (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=16101) and here LINK (http://www.summitek.com/slosher.html)). For developer, I plan on staying with Edwal FG-7, since that has been giving me pretty good results in general and is very inexpensive when diluted 1:15.


Steve

[engl]

Thank you for the replies!

To Mr. Marshall:
Arista seems interesting, but due to the shipping costs to Sweden it ends up more expensive than Fomapan or ERA. From what I understands its actually Fomapan, right?

To Mr.Dahlgren
I forgot to say that I cant really get a room dark enough for development in trays, and Ill also be moving around a bit in the following months so Id like to have a daylight tank. This is very unfortunate, as the Combi-Plan tank costs 150$ shipped here in Sweden, which is approaching the cost of my Crown Graphic camera + lens...

As you say, my Crown is going to have limited movements, especially with the standard Optar lens. I think I will pass on using printing paper, but thanks for the tip.

To Mr.Bryant:
That does sound economical :)

[Tim Meisburger]

Dear Engl,

You are right to go with the daylight tank (then you only need a dark or changing bag to load it), but it does not have to be new. Try ebay there or in the UK. You can also look for a Paterson Orbital (which I use) which is useful for developing both film and prints. You can also get darkbags cheap on ebay.

For film, shipping from the states is exorbitant, so I get most of my film from Shanghai. Search Shanghai 4x5 on ebay and you will find several sellers. For me, it ends up costing about what folks in the US pay for the cheapest film from Freestyle.

Good luck, Tim

[Tim Meisburger]

One more point. For developer and other chemicals, I would go with those most likely to be available at home and wherever you travel, which would probably be d-76. If you fix on one film and one developer for a year or two, you can eliminate a lot of confusing variables.

[Patrick Dixon]

I'd recommend a Paterson Orbital too. You can process 1-4 sheets using very little chemical volume (I use 100-150ml) which makes it very economical. I use my chemicals one shot because volumes are so small.

[Ari]

I second Tim's suggestion of Shanghai; very well priced, and shipping, for those of us outside the US, is very inexpensive.
Pair it up with HC-110, and film costs about 50 cents per sheet, processed.
It also happens to be a very good quality film.

[ret wisner]

ive tried all the cheaper films and the only one which is good value for money is the era. far less coating inperfections than the foma or shangers.

[BetterSense]

If you need to go even cheaper than foma/shanghai, you can go to xray film at about 10 cents per sheet or paper for about the same. It's good for testing cameras at least.

[ret wisner]

where would i score some xray film in europe?

[dagabel]

Hi Engl - for daylight tank processing you could also try this modified taco method with an inexpensive stainless steel tank:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=30099

I'm satisfied with the results I've received with it using Arista EDU.Ultra and Diafine over the last couple of years.

Duane

[Ron Marshall]

Thank you for the replies!

To Mr. Marshall:
Arista seems interesting, but due to the shipping costs to Sweden it ends up more expensive than Fomapan or ERA. From what I understands its actually Fomapan, right?




That is my understanding as well. Good luck.

[Jay DeFehr]

You might consider the "process in the Bag" method, if you're truly penniless. Use the black plastic bag film and paper are packaged in as a daylight processing envelope. The idea is very simple; put the film in the bag, pour in the processing chemicals, fold the top of the bag over to make it light-proof, squeeze the air out, and agitate as you like. If you want to get very precise, you can float the bag in a tempered bath, just be sure to keep the top/ open end of the bag above the level of the tempering bath to prevent accidental dilution of processing solutions. I'm testing a do-dad that makes this method easier and more practical, but it's not ready for prime time, yet.

There are many inexpensive developers, both commercially available, and made-from-bulk chemicals. The latter requires some up-front investment in a scale, bulk chem's etc, that someone developing film in a bag might not be willing to make. In which case, something like Rodinal or hc110 that last forever on the shelf are probably good bets.

Here's a table of developer costs:

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Developers/Cost/cost.html

According to the table, Kodak HC110 is the cheapest commercially available developer at $0.16/ liter of working solution (dilution B), followed closely by Rodinal at $0.21/ liter of WS (1:100). Mixed-from-bulk Pyrocat HD in water comes in at $0.15/ liter WS ($1.45+ shipping for commercially made stuff). Mixed-from-bulk Hypercat in propylene glycol is easily the most economical developer, at $0.06/ liter of working solution, and a shelf life similar to HC110. Incidentally, Kodak Tmax developer is the most expensive developer in the table, at $2.00/ liter of working solution.

Clearly, for economy and convenience, HC110 can't be beaten, but with 4 developers ranging from $0.06- $0.21/ liter of working solution, developer cost seems a minor consideration.

The least expensive film I've found is Arista Ortho Litho. It's on a very thin base, it's very slow, and builds contrast like, well....like a litho film. I have fun playing with this stuff, but I don't consider it a reliable film for me. I get very mixed results, depending on exposure conditions and my handling of the stuff. If I touch it with my fingers, or with tongs, during processing, I will definitely mark the film. These faults are my own; the film is capable, when handled appropriately, of quite satisfactory (for me) results.

So, using Arista Ortho Litho film, and Hypercat, I can shoot 8x10 for about $0.80/ sheet, processed. It's not my everyday process, but I do have fun with it.

[Jay DeFehr]

By way of example, the attached is:

Film: Arista APHS Ortho Litho
Developer: Hypercat, 1:5:300
Camera: Deardorff V8
Lens: Wollensak Verito, 14-1/2"
Aperture: f6
Exposure: long-ish

[engl]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Im glad to hear there is no lack of developer options, even on a thin budget. Im not ready to make up-front investments in chemicals for self-mixing, but it seems I at least get to choose between Rodinal, HC110, FG-7 and diluted Xtol.

As for film, the Shanghai stuff sounds interesting, Ill try that out later. Ill start with the ERA film though, they both cost pretty much the same (as does Fomapan).

As for developer tank, I havnt been able to locate a used Combi-plan at a reasonable price. Ironically, I just learnt the tanks were earlier made here in Sweden, and possibly still are are. The choice of tank is probably my biggest concern now. The soft-tubes thing was pretty interesting, Im going to look more into tubes, both for constant agitation (rolling) and for mounting into a Paterson tank or something.

Im not really interested in getting into things which I know from the start I will want to move away from later, such as x-ray/print sheets or in-bag development. The stuff I start out with doesnt have to be what Ill always use, but I want there to be a chance Ill use it forever.

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Im glad to hear there is no lack of developer options, even on a thin budget. Im not ready to make up-front investments in chemicals for self-mixing, but it seems I at least get to choose between Rodinal, HC110, FG-7 and diluted Xtol.

As for film, the Shanghai stuff sounds interesting, Ill try that out later. Ill start with the ERA film though, they both cost pretty much the same (as does Fomapan).

As for developer tank, I havnt been able to locate a used Combi-plan at a reasonable price. Ironically, I just learnt the tanks were earlier made here in Sweden, and possibly still are are. The choice of tank is probably my biggest concern now. The soft-tubes thing was pretty interesting, Im going to look more into tubes, both for constant agitation (rolling) and for mounting into a Paterson tank or something.

Im not really interested in getting into things which I know from the start I will want to move away from later, such as x-ray/print sheets or in-bag development. The stuff I start out with doesnt have to be what Ill always use, but I want there to be a chance Ill use it forever.

We make the HP CombiPlan tank in our factory in Gotene. It was also made there before when it was the Gepe CombiPlan tank. Gepe has recently moved their photographic production lines to Garmisch in Germany so future production may go there. Coincidentily the system was made there before it was the Gepe tank and had its original name -Krause CombiPlan tank.

For about 4 years after we bought the system from Gepe we did manufacture it in the USA but went back to the Gepe factory as the tools were not right for US presses.

[Tim Meisburger]

So, sounds like the ideal approach is to buy direct from the factory. The seller makes money, you save money, and the only people that lose are the shipper and the taxman (actually, I guess the government always finds a way to get their bit).