KEH "Bargain" equipment.

[Paul Kierstead]

I've been looking at a LF monorail in "bargain" condition on the KEH site, but don't have a real handle on just how beat-up these are. Does anyone have first hand experience buying "BGN" cameras at KEH?

[Mike Tobias]

In my experience, KEH bargain grade equipment is truly a bargain in the literal sense of the word, not in actual condition. Usually expect some paint loss, perhaps a few superficial scratches, and maybe some scuffs. They tend to be very good about weeding out defective equipment of any type, and out of hundreds of items I've bought from them, I've had problems with 2 (which they exchanged without fuss or waiting). Just my 2 cents, KEH is sterling in my book.

Mike

[Ed Richards]

Same here.

[mdm]

I bought a bargain sinar f. The lock mechanisms for rear movements were so worn that it was not really functional and it had a missing knob for front swing/shift. I asked them to check it before they sent it, shipping to me was not inexpensive. I fixed both problems with bits from a front standard that I bought here on LFPF. I bought a 150 mm Nikor W , Ex as I recall and the shutter jammed after about 20 exposures. I bought another very good lens for a high price and it had a hair between 2 elements and came with a 67mm step up ring and a cannon cap instead or an original, this on a lens requiring a 49mm cap. If you are somewhere where it is difficult for you to return an item, you run a high chance of being screwed.

[JRFrench]

This discussion has happened many times on here, and always has this result. Most people have great experiences with KEH, including BGN stuff (I have) the occasional person has a bad run with them and decides that they are patently bad.

Perhaps, if you are as mdm says, not in a position to easily return items, you may want to consider trying to purchase locally or new, but if you are in the 'states, I think their customer service is pretty good.

[lenser]

In my case, with several Hasselblad items, bargain should have read excellent to E+. I've had a bout ten transactions and all were terrific including one old style Zone VI WA bellows that came apart after about five months. They could not replace it so they refunded everything even though it was well out of warranty.

I would say buy with confidence.

[Jim Becia]

Last night I received a Fuji 300W 5.6 from them that was rated bargain. I was a little tentative buying a lens rated that way, but I thought I'd give it a shot. To be honest, I'm amazed at the condition. The glass is sparkling and the barrel looks hardly used. The only reason that it might be rated bargain is because it had no lens caps, at least that's how I see it. This is my first try at using KEH and must say I would certainly buy a "bargain" lens again. Jim

[Gem Singer]

You only get what you pay for.

I purchase EX, or EX+ items from KEH. Learned that from experience.

Most problems with KEH occur when they send the wrong item.

However, they readily honor their "no questions asked" return policy.

[Kevin M Bourque]

If there's more than one grade of an item available, I always buy the BGN. No doubt some people are fussier than I am, but I've never been disappointed. You can always send it back. The worst that happens is that you're out postage.

[Ron Marshall]

I bought a "Bargain" rated Rolleicord from KEH. It had a minor dent in the base that was purely cosmetic; without the small dent I would have rated it EX+. Functions flawlessly. Much better than I had hoped for!

[polyglot]

I've bought loads of BGN stuff from KEH. It's generally better than "excellent" rated stuff from eBay - flawless operation and optics with some tiny cosmetic faults.

All the gear I bought new and used for a few years, and which continues to work flawlessly now, is not up to KEH BGN standards. And I baby my equipment.

[Paul Kierstead]

Many thanks guys. I decided to risk it; a "BGN" P2. Heavy as hell, so if it does need to be returned, I'm out a fair chunk of change, shipping wise, but seems a worthwhile risk. So long as it works flawlessly, I'll be happy.

[Heroique]

...if it does need to be returned, I'm out a fair chunk of change...

I think you'll be pleased, but if a return is necessary, remember to ask whether they can refund your mailing costs. Doing so is not a part of KEH's formal return policy, but it is part of their informal one. Very likely a judgment call on their part, on a case-by-case basis. I've returned a couple of items before, not light-weight ones, and they refunded me the return postage in each case.

[mdm]

This discussion has happened many times on here, and always has this result. Most people have great experiences with KEH, including BGN stuff (I have) the occasional person has a bad run with them and decides that they are patently bad.

Perhaps, if you are as mdm says, not in a position to easily return items, you may want to consider trying to purchase locally or new, but if you are in the 'states, I think their customer service is pretty good.

Or, as Mr French here has done, build your own ingenious camera.

I did get one good deal from them, but that was on a very good but extremely unpopular lens. As a general rule I think you get better deals here, you can search all posts made by the seller and that can give you an idea of their trustworthyness. You can check with people they have traded with in the past. You will deal with a real person without a corporate identity to hide behind. You will have to decide what you are looking for and wait patiently for one to turn up, or post a WTB. You give up the instant gratification of buying from stock but cut out the middle man. ebay is a bad place to buy untill you have a very good idea what you are doing, it is too anonymous and impersonal to prevent people from gaming the sytem.

David

[Brian Ellis]

My one purchase of a BGN item was a disappointment - it was a viewfinder/meter for a Pentax 67 which had a large dent on the top and side. It functioned but looked pretty bad. Because of all I read here and elsewhere about how KEH's BGNs were like other stores' EXs or better, I was disappointed.

[Paul Kierstead]

As a general rule I think you get better deals here, you can search all posts made by the seller and that can give you an idea of their trustworthyness.

I quite agree, but P2's don't grow on trees, and when they come up, they tend to be spendy (for me, still cheap compared to new...); they also tend to be over accessorized. I actually poked around and waited for a while, but nothing came up. In KEH's defense, I have found them to be better then a faceless corporation to deal with; I think it is actually a modest sized business (I could be wrong).

[urs0polar]

I have bought from KEH over the last few years:

RB67 Pro-SD body EX+ (flawless, more like LN-)
RB67 65mm lens EX (flash thingy stuck between M&X, flash didn't work, sent it back no questions asked)
RB67 120 back and motorized back EX (all wonderful)

Voigtlander Bessa RF 6x9 (1940's) BGN - was in functional but worse shape than the one i inherited with the bent RF rail, so I sent it back no questions asked).

Linhof cable release EX+ (turned out it was a horseman cable release with a weird smooth connector and no threads.) I called them when I was returning the Bessa RF and asked if I could return this too. This was ONE YEAR LATER after I initially bought the cable release! They said no problem put it in the box and include a note. Wow!

Linhof 90mm tech V cam EX. This is lost somewhere in my apt as I sent the whole camera to marflex for a once-over and had them grind a cam for my 90 while it was there. If I find it, they may even let me return it.... :)

Linhof 180mm tech V cam EX. This is fine; my 180mm lens was $80 so I don't want to send it off and have it cammed the right way, and so far this is close enough. It seems to be mostly off on the closest range of the RF (i.e. <~2 feet).

Linhof Kardan GT 4x5 EX + Kardan 4x5 bag bellows BGN. This thing is in awesome condition. I think it's BGN because there's a hint of wear on the mm scale on the rail (i.e. the white letters are barely worn in one place if you look in the right light). Bag bellows are nylon (!?) and show use, but everything is light tight and works great.

Sinar Expert Case EX. This is an interesting one. It definitely is the right size to be a Sinar Expert case, and it has a velcro strappy thing for the 8x10 ground glass and back, but I think whoever had it before had a lot of strange kit, so the foam is not too useful for me. It also doesn't say Sinar anywhere on it, which I thought the expert cases were supposed to? It's cheaper to send it back and buy a new Pelican 1640 than it is to buy foam for this thing, and I can customize the Pelican. Very weird on the shipping, though: KEH sent me this case with just a shipping label stuck right on the case and a little strip of packing tape half-heartedly over the lip where it opens... no box. So, how do they guarantee it will arrive in EX condition like I paid for?! Anyhow, doesn't mater as I'm calling them monday to return it.

All in all, KEH is a great place to shop for stuff. IMO they mix up LF stuff, but they are really nice on the phone and I actually heavily prefer them over eBay.

I would wholeheartedly recommend them; if it's not right, send it back.

[gevalia]

Buy from them? Yes. Sell to them, heck no. Unless you like getting 10 cents on the dollar.

[neil poulsen]

My bargain from KEH was a 24mm Canon TS-E for a very reasonable price. (Least I've seen advertised.) The tightening screw for tilt doesn't work so well. But, never really need it. So, I got a great deal.

[stevebrot]

I think that it may depend on the type of item. I recently purchased:

Toyo 67/45 roll film holder in BGN condition. It looked pretty rough, but was perfectly functional.
Super Rollex 6x7 RFH in EX condition. With the exception of paint loss on the 4x5 adapter plate (unavoidable if used at all) it is pretty much like new.
Toyo lens board (Linhoff type) in EX condition. Someone must have been having an off day on this one. Severe paint loss, bent corner, and over-sized opening (definitely not Copal #0)...back it went with no questions asked.

My take is that LF stuff often leads a pretty rough life and even the best used gear bears the marks.


Steve

[awldune]

I feel like some of their graders just mark everything "BGN" as long as everything works -- I have bought BGN lenses that appeared to be N.O.S.

OTOH, I don't feel that their "EX" gear is necessarily that much nicer and there is a significant price premium over BGN.

[Gem Singer]

Look carefully at their listings for large format lenses.

Sometimes they list a lens as BGN, but it does not include the lens caps.

Then they list the very same lens as EX, and it does include the lens caps.

It's the very same lens. You are paying extra for the lens caps, not for an increase in quality.

The people at KEH who put a value on an item are not stupid.

They know how to buy low and sell high.

[BradS]

I have found them to be all over the place. I have purchased BGN items that were really nice and have also had items described as EX+ that did not even work properly (35mm SLR bodies). Most of the time...it is really good. For the other times, returns are easy.

[LyleB]

A few months ago I bought a BGN N90s from them for $29. I was AMAZED at the condition. I would seriously say that it MAY have been a camera shop demo at most. Virtually pristine cosmetics and it works like new.

They may have had an overstock of this model, since it was marked down from $39, and remained on their site at the same price long after I bought mine.

I'm sure not all will be this great, wouldn't expect them to be, but I sure am happy with the one I got.

[LyleB]

I think you'll be pleased, but if a return is necessary, remember to ask whether they can refund your mailing costs. Doing so is not a part of KEH's formal return policy, but it is part of their informal one. Very likely a judgment call on their part, on a case-by-case basis. I've returned a couple of items before, not light-weight ones, and they refunded me the return postage in each case.

The same is true for Adorama. Call and speak with them if you need to make a return. They provided me with an emailed, pre-paid shipping label as I spoke with them on the phone. I trust both these companies if your are reasonable with your demands.

KEH repair service has been top-notch in my experience also. VERY quick turn-around.

[jp]

I just bought an EX enlarger lens from KEH, and it looked to be N.O.S. It came with original cardboard box with the retail sticker on it, inside it had the original warranty card, manual, plastic storage box, and threaded ring. No evidence of use.

[dsphotog]

All of my purchases from KEH have been joyful, they were all rated BGN or better.
My question is has anyone bought anything rated UG?

[drew.saunders]

I just bought a Mamiya 210/4 for 645 in "BGN" condition for $84. New, it cost about $750-$800. There's a dent in the telescoping lens hood, otherwise it looks new.

A while back I ordered an "EX" Canon F-1N, and they looked it over and re-classified it as "BGN" and lowered the price and sent me an email asking if I still wanted it. It worked fine for a long time (traded it and all my FD equipment for a 260/6.3 Fuji LF lens), but did have a fair bit of brassing, so I think "BGN" was a fair assessment.

If returns aren't prohibitively expensive for you, the "Bargain" can be a good bargain.

One thing for sure: they don't appear to test the shutter speeds on LF lenses, at least not with a proper tester. They'll probably notice obvious problems, but if you get an LF lens from them, you might want to test the speeds.

[tmbg]

I've bought a lot of stuff from KEH, usually BGN, always more than serviceable. Not too long ago I bought a Nikon 18-200VR for my digital, got the BGN grade lens at $465 (vs $650 for EX or $800 new), and it was flawless but for the fact that both caps were scuffed.

I've pieced together a whole mamiya m645 kit from keh, and I did take a chance on an UG condition non-metered prism initially, and UG really does mean ugly. It's got significant desilvering in the mirrors, and has that characteristic line across the view. Fact is, I expected it going in, and it was only $12. I fully anticipated buying a good condition PDs prism and a WLF for it. Also, the body that I ordered was an m645j BGN body for $43, but what I got was an m645 body (non-J, an upgrade), and in great condition technically, good seals, everything works. The leather's peeling up in corners a bit, but I'm perfectly ok with that for $43 :D I took the money saved and bought the relatively expensive 35mm lens for it.

[Gem Singer]

Hi "tmbg",

You probably purchased the prism for the Mamiya 645 that I returned to KEH.

At the time I purchased it, it was graded as EX (actually, it was much worse than UG)

[tmbg]

Perhaps!

At EX condition, I would have likely been angry. My EX condition PDs prism has no desilvering. However, at UG and $12, I don't mind a bit!

[Paul Kierstead]

Well, the P2 arrive. It is in very very good condition. Assuming the bellows are light tight, one would be very hard pressed to find fault beyond a few scratches.

And playing with this thing.... I should have bought one of these earlier.

[tmbg]

Excellent!

I ordered an Omega View 45F with wide-angle bellows from them yesterday, EX- condition. I should have it tomorrow, here's hoping that it's as good as nearly everything else I've gotten from them!

[john wood]

It should be; they've never let me down. As everyone says, 'BGN' is pretty darn good most of the time, and 'Ex' blows away any hot-air claim on fleabay.
Hope it works out well!

[tmbg]

yeah, I got it and I'm quite happy with it!