Need advise on home processing [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

View Full Version : Need advise on home processing

bbarna

5-Apr-2010, 15:29

Hey everyone,
I arrived to the decision to develop my negatives at home.
Being totally beginner I need some advise.
I use Foma 100 and Adox 100/50/25 (4X5) films and thought to use Pyrocat-HD developer. Does this developer suit these films? I chose this developer because 1. it is cheap, 2. if I understood correctly the posts over here it is possible to store for quite some time (which is important because I would develop a few negatives once per month). I have no drum or xxx dollar amount to buy one, so I will be using trays or try the 'bag' method as was supposed here in an other thread (see Film processing in a small apartment).
What is the correct N, N-1, N+1 developing time for this developer? And what about the agitation? How long time should I have the negatives in the stop bath and in the fixer? Any suggestions what fixer or stop bath to use?
Thank you in advance for every reply.
B

Greg Blank

5-Apr-2010, 17:25

my advice is not buy thing because they are "cheap" that is an asshole approach to
doing what you ultimately hope to care about. I have never done "cheap" I have done less, and have done thing not so desirable, but cheap is not a word I bandy about.

People want instant glory - it does not come cheap. Why not show some imagery with your relative concerns before asking for a fix!

Hey everyone,
I arrived to the decision to develop my negatives at home.
Being totally beginner I need some advise.
I use Foma 100 and Adox 100/50/25 (4X5) films and thought to use Pyrocat-HD developer. Does this developer suit these films? I chose this developer because 1. it is cheap, 2. if I understood correctly the posts over here it is possible to store for quite some time (which is important because I would develop a few negatives once per month). I have no drum or xxx dollar amount to buy one, so I will be using trays or try the 'bag' method as was supposed here in an other thread (see Film processing in a small apartment).
What is the correct N, N-1, N+1 developing time for this developer? And what about the agitation? How long time should I have the negatives in the stop bath and in the fixer? Any suggestions what fixer or stop bath to use?
Thank you in advance for every reply.
B

Eric James

5-Apr-2010, 17:42

MIke Sherck

5-Apr-2010, 17:56

There are other developers with extended keeping ability, including Rodinal and Kodak's HC-110, so perhaps you could do some additional research before chosing. Or, you can do what I did and chose the products the stores local to me carried. Very convenient, if you have local sources. Personally, I've never tried Pyrocat so I can't help you with that.

Development times are always "suggestions" because none of us shoot or process film in exactly the same way. There are subtle variations, especially when developing only occasionally or with low-tech techniques such as trays, which make someone else's results a product of their own approach, technique, or even quality of water supply. Times and film speeds suggested by manufactures work well in their settings and can be considered to be good enough to start from, but you really should test your film exposure and developing numbers in order to understand your own personal quirks. There are quite a few methods (or really, lots of alternative explanations of the few methods which work,) on the web.

Mike

Kirk Fry

5-Apr-2010, 22:58

What Mike said. HC-110 tends to be very forgiving and used as a one shot. I use it in CHEAP pans, same way AA did. The concentrate keeps longer than I am likely to be alive. Don't go for the exotic stuff first. Kfry

David de Gruyl

6-Apr-2010, 08:20

my advice is not buy thing because they are "cheap" that is an asshole approach to
doing what you ultimately hope to care about. I have never done "cheap" I have done less, and have done thing not so desirable, but cheap is not a word I bandy about.

People want instant glory - it does not come cheap. Why not show some imagery with your relative concerns before asking for a fix!

I disagree with how you said this, but agree with what you are saying. To that end, I am going to paraphrase:

being cheap costs more. Specifically, buying crappy tools costs more. You end up having to buy the right ones eventually.

Now, there are certain ways to develop film that cost far less than other ways. They are equally valid. (Using a staining developer because it costs less is not one of them. Typically Pyro is not a first time developer.) Using inexpensive trays is certainly cheaper than a Jobo drum. And arguably better.

If you do not mind standing around in the dark, trays work great.

Personally, I would suggest using HC-110 or Rodinal if you are only developing a couple of shots a month. Both of those can be used once through, and in very low concentrations. Or in higher concentrations to get shorter developing times. They are also insanely easy to mix.

On the other hand, you can't really go wrong with D76 1+1 (or ID11). And at <$5 / gallon it is not very expensive.

Matthew Rolfe

6-Apr-2010, 10:23

my advice is not buy thing because they are "cheap" that is an asshole approach to
doing what you ultimately hope to care about. I have never done "cheap" I have done less, and have done thing not so desirable, but cheap is not a word I bandy about.

People want instant glory - it does not come cheap. Why not show some imagery with your relative concerns before asking for a fix!

Greg, this is an asshole approach to a set of questions. Especially if the author of the thread admits to being a 'total beginner'.

"People want instant glory - it does not come cheap".......idiotic and pointless statement.

If you are developing once a month and only putting through a few negatives at a time, then cost should not be an issue. Shelf life is the greater issue. I wouldn't consider any developer to be expensive if used as little as once a month.
You will want a developer that will last and work well over a long period of time. The last thing you want is to buy a developer that is cheap, only to discover that it exhausts after using only half a bottle. So paying a little more will prove helpful in the long run.

I use Rodinal and I couldn't agree more with what was said about it's shelf life and ease of use. I haven't used hcc-110 so I can't comment, but I totally agree with Mike and Davids recommendation of Rodinal to suit your needs. As the others said, you need to do your own tests for development times.

I'm happy to admit that I hate film testing, but it's a necessary and crucial evil i'm afraid....

6-Apr-2010, 10:25

Some of the less expensive sheet films are more fragile, more easy to scratch, and will tolerate less tray handling. So, finding best economy may be calculated as a "whole system" equation, not just film, but film + survival rate + the cost of going out to shoot. What comes out cheapest when you figure the cost per sheet that survives the development process? What is the best film brand when you ask what film gives you the most usable negs per shooting session? Going out to shoot is not free.

Developer is not free... Every incremental cost of shooting is lost if a negative fails during processing.

David de Gruyl

6-Apr-2010, 10:53

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that tray processing is only doable with a good darkroom.

If you do not have a darkroom you can stand up in (or, better, sit on a stool) in front of your trays, get a daylight tank and a changing bag (for 4x5). If you want to do more individual processing, use the btzs tubes, but you run a risk of gouging the negatives on the way in or out of the tubes.

Personally, I use the HP Combi-plan. It works, and that is the best that can be said about it. It is not pleasant, nor leak proof, nor very easy to load. After the fist hundred or so sheets, it gets much more manageable (as in: no improperly loaded sheets). But it is a daylight tank, and that is a plus. Especially if you do long developing.

Matthew Rolfe

6-Apr-2010, 11:57

Be careful David! The last thing anyone wants is Bob from HP marketing on their case about proper/improper use of the Combi Plan! :D

I would suggest the Combi Plan for daylight work. Just as David says it takes a little getting used to, but after a few runs you realise that it's a really simple yet great bit of kit.

Going back to developing, I would suggest looking at the recommended shelf life of stock solutions then doing the sums; The amount of stock solution made from one packet/bottle divided by the amount you would estimate using each month, this will give you a VERY ROUGH idea of how long you will need the developer to last.

Mike Anderson

6-Apr-2010, 12:56

Personally, I use the HP Combi-plan. It works, and that is the best that can be said about it. It is not pleasant, nor leak proof, nor very easy to load. After the fist hundred or so sheets, it gets much more manageable (as in: no improperly loaded sheets). But it is a daylight tank, and that is a plus. Especially if you do long developing.

I just started developing my own film, with a Combi-plan (no darkroom - changing bag). I've yet to screw up a development (I am surprised), but I have screwed up a few sheets before development (forget to close the lens before pulling the darkslide, etc.) Once I get the Combi-plan loaded and closed up, I go to the kitchen sink. At this point I'm kind of sloppy, overflow the tank and spill stuff, but it's all in the sink. Development for me is kind of a nervous operation but so far so good.

...Mike

David de Gruyl

6-Apr-2010, 16:50

The only problem I have had (and it has not ruined anything) is improperly loaded sheets that did not fix properly. Surprisingly enough, they all developed properly, and I could always pour fixer into a tray and refix the off sheets. Daylight is fine for fixing.

Two words of advice:

1. premeasure 1.1L of chemicals, and do not worry about overfilling
2. make sure you open and close the vent.

It is not as easy to operate as stainless steel tank (for roll film) developing, but it is really not that bad. It is also the best thing going for 4x5 as far as I know.

bbarna

7-Apr-2010, 01:38

Thank you for the replies. I guess I was a little bit vague when I mentioned this low budget idea. I really do spend money on good stuff, but right now I don't have the possibility buying a drum. So the point is I can not afford a daylight tool, that is I have to go with trays.
Regarding the chemicals I'll try Rodinal.
Thank you once again for advises, I really appreciate them.
Best of luck,
Barna

trumil9

7-Apr-2010, 05:15

My 3 cents
Foma is offered in US under Arista brand.
I use rodinal in dilution 1:100/10ml:1000ml
Entire process is in 20°C/68°F. You can use different temperature, from 64°F to 70°F but important is to keep the same temperature during entire process of developing - developer, stopper, fixer, rinse, final rinse. I always soak negative during 3 minutes in tap water before fill tank with rodinal. During 3 minutes make slow inversions. After tank is filled with rodinal I do inversion first 1 minute. Then brake next 4 minutes. Then 3 very slow inversions and break during 5 minutes. I repeat this third, fourth time, then 2 minutes brake and rodinal is drained. Together 22minutes - that is all. Inversion always very slow to prevent shaking.
Later stopper 30s, fixer (fresh/old - 4min/8min), 10 minutes rinsing with tap water, then Kodak flo 30s and distilled water as a final rinse just before drying.
I use HP CombiPlan T. I use this kind of developing for all formats. No difference regarding ISO between 100 and 400.
Latest 4x5 Arista EDU developing

http://www.logi9.com/film/sinar/1000img301.jpg

Robert Hughes

7-Apr-2010, 07:40

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that tray processing is only doable with a good darkroom.
If by a "good darkroom" you mean "any dark room with plumbing and flat surfaces", I agree. My bathroom works as well for me as any special-purpose darkroom, if the process is kept simple: rinse-develop-rinse-fix-rinse-dry.

One fortunate aspect of darkroom photography is it works great with precision controls and top-notch gear, but it also works just fine on the cheap with trays and room temperature city tap water.

Matthew Rolfe

7-Apr-2010, 08:59

One fortunate aspect of darkroom photography is it works great with precision controls and top-notch gear, but it also works just fine on the cheap with trays and room temperature city tap water.

I agree, although I think it works great both ways.

In regards to the Combi Plan, I have never really had a problem with sheet loading or with leaks. There is always a little excess that drips off the nozzle when inverting, but actual leakage has never been a problem for me.

tgtaylor

7-Apr-2010, 10:12

Probably the cheapest way to go would be using Kodak hard rubber tanks with film hangers. I recently bought 3 of those tanks and 5 hangers off this site in excellent condition for about $15. I imaging that the thick hard rubber tanks will hold the temperature more constant than the plastic combi-plan and loading the hangers is about as fool-proof as it can get. What you end-up with is a fool-proof manual dip-n-dunk system for practically nothing. Also, the tanks will hold up to about 2 liters of solution which is ideal for low dilution solution solutions like rodinal.

David de Gruyl

7-Apr-2010, 10:18

If by a "good darkroom" you mean "any dark room with plumbing and flat surfaces", I agree. My bathroom works as well for me as any special-purpose darkroom, if the process is kept simple: rinse-develop-rinse-fix-rinse-dry.

One fortunate aspect of darkroom photography is it works great with precision controls and top-notch gear, but it also works just fine on the cheap with trays and room temperature city tap water.

by good darkroom, I meant "someplace light tight with enough surface for the trays", and preferably a comfortable place to sit or stand.

You can even do it with plumbing in another room.

And you are correct, trays and city water can work fine (but if you have unidentified spots on the negatives, you might want to consider a filter). Unless you are doing C-41 or E-6, you do not really need temperature control.

Bob Salomon

7-Apr-2010, 10:34

David de Gruyl

7-Apr-2010, 10:45

Since you are in NJ and we are in NJ maybe you would like to bring your tank to us (assuming you are close to northern NJ) and have us check your CombiPlan and maybe show you some things you have not discovered about it. Or you could bring it to the Rod Planck show on Saturday at Nutley HS.

I should have restated this: it is not idiot proof. The advice I gave about making sure the vent is properly opened or closed really does fix the issue.

Thebes

7-Apr-2010, 12:25

I've never misloaded my combiplan, have had only minor leaks making it an in-the-sink kind of thing, really its been great compared to my old yankee tank which I could only half load and had to slop the s**t out of in a tray to agitate enough to use. Wish it didn't take so long to fill and empty, but this has caused no issues on the negs though I've worried about it during use.

Getting back to part of the OP's question, how are people liking Adox and Foma in pyro developers? Does Adox block up the highlights in it if they are overexposed?

Louie Powell

8-Apr-2010, 05:46

1. it is cheap,
2. if I understood correctly the posts over here it is possible to store for quite some time

Not good reasons.

Pyro is a 'staining' developer. The characteristics of this developer are a wider tonal range and less graniness. But pyro may have some health issues.

There are other developers that are easier to use, especially for a newbie. D-76 (ID-11) is always a good starting point, and if you are concerned about economy and shelf life, nothing beats HC-110.

In terms of technique, shuffling film in open trays is always a good starting point. There is a HIGH risk of scratching - - but the advantage of doing a few sheets this way is that you do become more comfortable working in total darkness. I eventually went to a slosher insert for my tray to prevent scratching. They are commercially available, and easy to DIY if you are handy. Others will advocate for Combi-Plan, Jobo, or tubes. All work, but all require practice to acquire competence and dexterity.

Greg Blank

9-Apr-2010, 17:18

Yeah I went a bit off the deep end, its been a rough month.

Real nice Greg.

Greg Blank

9-Apr-2010, 17:42

I need to rephrase my response, my initial intent was not to lambaste you for making the great decision to process at home. And my awkard response was in part relative to posting via my phone versus the home connection.

My biggest concern are the films. I out right disliked LF Foma film. I was given a sample box from Foma to test a number of years ago and the stuff was horrid. I did find their 35mm and 35mm reversal films to be interesting.

I stick with Ilford, Kodak and Fuji becuase the films are just plain a better experience for me. To each their own. My sole experience with Pyro Cat was not positive as well. After having used standard ABC and Rollo Pyro, I anticipated a much different experience, I have tried a great many developers and films and still retain the use of
PMK+ which I formulate from scratch and obtain several ingredients from the grocery as they are *Less expensive* :)

Tanks are better because standing in the dark sucks.

For PMK developement contrast is controlled by varying the amount of the B solution.
I suppose that Pyro Cat works the same. I would have to look at the formula for sure...just too tired to do that....or lazy ;)

In any event minmum stop, any indicator stop is good, water may be better though for Pyro films, 30 seconds-or two changes of water. Two minutes fix one, two minutes fix two- or until the film base is clear of any purple anti halation backing that did not wash out when you presoaked the film before developing..any rapid fixer should be fine there are many......most have identical formula.

then wash in Perma wash, last wash in water according to perma wash instructions.

Hey everyone,
I arrived to the decision to develop my negatives at home.
Being totally beginner I need some advise.
I use Foma 100 and Adox 100/50/25 (4X5) films and thought to use Pyrocat-HD developer. Does this developer suit these films? I chose this developer because 1. it is cheap, 2. if I understood correctly the posts over here it is possible to store for quite some time (which is important because I would develop a few negatives once per month). I have no drum or xxx dollar amount to buy one, so I will be using trays or try the 'bag' method as was supposed here in an other thread (see Film processing in a small apartment).
What is the correct N, N-1, N+1 developing time for this developer? And what about the agitation? How long time should I have the negatives in the stop bath and in the fixer? Any suggestions what fixer or stop bath to use?
Thank you in advance for every reply.
B

Eric James

9-Apr-2010, 17:45

I need to rephrase my response...

Real nice Greg :)

Greg Blank

9-Apr-2010, 17:54

Maybe so, sometimes peeple have called me worse, we are what we are warts and all ;)

"People want instant glory - it does not come cheap".......idiotic and pointless statement.

I think its a valid statement, and not so idiotic. By instant glory I mean instant success, on one hand metaphorical on the other apropo. The internet gives so much info and opinions its very hard for a newbie to sort out. As you surmise nothing beats testing stuff yourself....utimately its what every great photographer has done :)

Greg, this is an asshole approach to a set of questions. Especially if the author of the thread admits to being a 'total beginner'.

"People want instant glory - it does not come cheap".......idiotic and pointless statement.

If you are developing once a month and only putting through a few negatives at a time, then cost should not be an issue. Shelf life is the greater issue. I wouldn't consider any developer to be expensive if used as little as once a month.
You will want a developer that will last and work well over a long period of time. The last thing you want is to buy a developer that is cheap, only to discover that it exhausts after using only half a bottle. So paying a little more will prove helpful in the long run.

I use Rodinal and I couldn't agree more with what was said about it's shelf life and ease of use. I haven't used hcc-110 so I can't comment, but I totally agree with Mike and Davids recommendation of Rodinal to suit your needs. As the others said, you need to do your own tests for development times.

I'm happy to admit that I hate film testing, but it's a necessary and crucial evil i'm afraid....

Paul Harris

10-Apr-2010, 00:07

Well Mr. Barna,

It's been 2 years since you posed your questions and I suppose that you are still into photography or have switched to polo or stamp collecting. Do hope you're obstinate enough to have continued with photography. How you doing? How have things worked out? I'm surprised no one suggested a few obvious to-do's:

1. Unless your tap water is more elegant than the rest of ours, use well-filtered water. I suggest 2 filters in series. Filter 1, closest to the tap, should be a 5 micron filter feeding a 1 micron filter. Eliminating the 5 micron filter saves a few bucks up front but it will save you some cash by removing the big boulders before the H20 hits the 1 micron job.

2. I suggest using a Kindermann stainless steel daylight tank with a plastic top and cap and a 4x5 reel. If you have the scratch, get a 2nd reel so you can develop a second batch while the 1st reel dries. Load and cap the tank in a large changing bag; everything else can be done in daylight.

3. Chemistry:
As you will use relatively small amounts infrequently, buying liquid instead of powder will reduce mixing time.

3.a. Film Developer:

3.a.1. Rodinal is very good but you might have a hard time finding it and you will have the additional expense of a large glass syringe with a needle that will scare the bejesus out of anyone who sees it.

3.a.2. Use Kodak HC110 until you learn everything about it, say 5-10 years. Experiment with different dilutions, temperatures, and time. You've got a lot to learn.

3.b. Indicator Stop Bath: A small bottle will last a year.

3.c. Hypo, otherwise known as "Fixer"
Buy either a "hardening" or "non-hardening" fixer depending upon the weather. If you're in Maine, buy a Fixer with Hardener. If in Phoenix, buy non-hardening fixer and a separate hardener like Potassium Permanganate because the hardening Fixer doesn't harden enough in hot weather.

3.d. Hypo Eliminator (optional for film, almost necessary for B&W prints). This solution reduces the final wash time and therefore saves water. You have to decide whether you want to save water or money. Your move.

3.e. Hypo Check - a few drops into the final wash step 4.i., infra, tells you if you've washed long enough. Read the directions.

3.f. Wetting Agent. Kodak calls theirs "Photo Flo." You can also use Joy. Use just a few drops at a time.

4. Process:
Seriatim:

4.a Pre-soak (water) - The purpose is to get the film good and wet to eliminate bubbles forming on the film when the developer is poured into the tank.

4.b. Develop according to time and temperature. At end of development cycle, discard developer unless you're going to process another batch almost immediately.

4.c. Rinse with water (optional) - reduces the "shock" of the very acetic Stop Bath. Discard after a few seconds.

4.d. Stop Bath (also known as Short Stop) - Stops the development process immediately and allows the Fixer to do its job more effectively. Use for a few seconds and discard.

4.e. Old (first) Fixer bath. Skip this step the first time you develop film, you'll understand why in step 4.f., infra. After the first time through, fix in this bath for half the recommended time, then discard unless you are going to process another batch immediately.

4.f. New (second) Fixer bath. The first time through, fix in this bath the full recommended fixer time; afterward, fix in this bath half the recommended time and pour into the empty "Old Fixer Bath" bottle. In other words, after the first time the "New" becomes the "Old" and you're going to ping-pong back and forth. It is important that you don't exceed the total recommended fixing time.

4.g. First Wash - Remove the large cap from the tank and insert a hose from the tap into the tank and wash the Hypo away thoroughly. How long is "thoroughly?" Depends on whether or not you are using the Hypo Eliminator. Read the directions on the HE bottle.

4.h. Hypo Eliminator (optional) - Read the directions on the HE bottle.

4.i. Second Wash - repeat step 4.g., supra.

4.j. Hypo Check - Read the directions and extend the Final Wash cycle as required.

4.k. Photo Flo - This is a wetting agent, i.e., it makes the water wetter and reduces spotting.

4.l. VERY GENTLY squeegee each negative with an immaculately clean squeegee.

4.m. Hang the negatives up to dry and do try to keep your greasy paws off them.

5. Equipment:
In addition to the tank, reel(s), and filter(s) already noted, you will need 1 or 2 measuring beakers at least 1 liter capacity, 1 or 2 250cc measuring beakers, 2 eyedroppers, a thermometer that reads between 60F and 100F accurately (I prefer dial-type with 8" probe but a floating glass type is OK), a timer similar to a GraLab 300 (don't buy a new one for $140, buy one used on eBay for $30-$50), A NEW FILM Squeegee (don't stint), 2 or more stirring paddles, (6) 1 or 1 liter brown Arista Air-Evac (or equivalent) bottles (in a pinch, you can use the brown plastic bottles that Arizona Tea comes in), a 2 or 3 foot length of plastic or rubber hose that will fit down into the center of the Kindermann 4x5 SS reel on one end and connect to the outlet of the 1 micron filter, and now for the most expensive gadget: a fiberglass window box from your local friendly garden center or plastic tub from your local friendly Walmart that all the bottles and tank will fit comfortably in that is not quite as tall as the Kindermann tank. Put all the bottles (filled up with water or chemicals, in order), the thermometer, and the business end of the hose in the window box (or tub).

Fill the box up with water at the correct temperature - BE EXACT. Make sure all bottles are at the correct and same temperature before loading the film onto to reel and into the tank. Happy developing.

Paul Harris

nolindan

10-Apr-2010, 12:18

I'll second some suggestions:

1) HC110 is probably the best choice as it works well in trays, keeps a long time, is inexpensive and doesn't take a long time to develop film - an important feature if tray processing. And it holds shadow detail and film speed much better than Rodinal. Get a plastic 10-20 ml medicine dosing syringe for measuring out the developer concentrate.

2) Use a modern film with a hardened emulsion. Anything from Ilford or Kodak is fine. The East Block films have very fragile emulsions that don't take well to handling mistakes - you might find yourself limited to doing a sheet at a time in a tray to mitigate scratches.

As to equipment, I started out at the age of 7 with a few glass kitchen baking dishes, a packet of developer and a packed of fixer. Worked in a closet on a sheet of plywood, using a nearby bathroom for washing the film. I can't say results were really any different from my present fancy equipment.

Matthew Rolfe

10-Apr-2010, 14:46

sultanofcognac

26-Apr-2010, 08:34

I just started developing my own film, with a Combi-plan (no darkroom - changing bag). I've yet to screw up a development (I am surprised), but I have screwed up a few sheets before development (forget to close the lens before pulling the darkslide, etc.) Once I get the Combi-plan loaded and closed up, I go to the kitchen sink. At this point I'm kind of sloppy, overflow the tank and spill stuff, but it's all in the sink. Development for me is kind of a nervous operation but so far so good.

...Mike

Thanks Mike -

I very seriously needed a good laugh before I begin to undertake my first developing catastrophe in more than 30 years.

That really sounds like the Mr. Bean school of film development - incidentally, the same school I attended!

Cheers,

johnny