A different type of Universal Heliar?

[Steven Tribe]

Attached to the Century Stand/camera 10a I collected in Sweden was a Heliar 30cm. Looked exactly like the 360mm I already have. Sad, I was hoping it was a Universal - but it has exactly the same engraving on the front RIM as the 360mm. Having now got the camera set up and working I looked at the Heliar more closely. It has a scale 0 - 5 on the front section, lots of wear on the black enamel on this section, and it turns. I have checked CCHarrison/Dan's write-up to try and find it. The scale 0 - 5 runs anticlockwise - rather than the illustrated Universal. Is this some sort of addition to the standard Heliar - or is it an early version of the Heliar Universal? I have photographed the relevant area. There are two threaded holes in the rim where the sticking out handles would have been. I would appreciate any opinions/knowledge!

[Steven Tribe]

By the way, the serial number indicates 1926 which seems to be at odds with CCHarrison's Heliar article?

[Ken Lee]

Could someone have assembled one lens out of two broken ones ?

[Armin Seeholzer]

It looks the same as my Universal Heliar 360mm with a 67xxx No.
Be happy you have a Universal Heliar!!!

Cheers Armin

[cowanw]

My 1935 Universal 30cm looks just like yours. Look at the upper left of the Universal Heliar page on Harrison's site and you will see the one like yours above Heliar.
Regards
Bill

[Steven Tribe]

Thanks Armin and Cowanw! I had realised what I had. But do you have a rim which just says "Heliar"?

[Steve Hamley]

It's easy to see if you have a Universal Heliar; the center element moves when you turn the ring and it's quite easy to see.

Cheers, Steve

[Steven Tribe]

Next question!
I have restricted movement (only to position 2) - any experience with servicing (grubb screws, concealed screws and etc.)?

[cowanw]

Thanks Armin and Cowanw! I had realised what I had. But do you have a rim which just says "Heliar"?

Mine has the universal heliar name.
No help from me on your second question.
Regards
Bill

[Steven Tribe]

I have looked at the original drawing of the Universal Heliar in literature from Voigtländer- It shows the serial number as 224186 - a 1925 date. It shows part of the text of the lens rim - including the last half of the serial number and then Voigtländer & sohn A-G Bra..... This is exactly what I can read on my Universal from 1926/7 when held at the same angle. There is just no way that the rest of the text ...unschweig Heliar 30cm 1:4,5 No 224 -could have also included "Universal". So I would suggest that the first run of the Heliars sold as Universal Heliars did not include the Universal name on the firm.

[Armin Seeholzer]

But do you have a rim which just says "Heliar"?

I have Universal Heliar on mine.


So I would suggest that the first run of the Heliars sold as Universal Heliars did not include the Universal name on the firm.

Could be or maybe it is to small in diameter to have enough space to write booth!

How much mm is it in diameter? Would it have space for writing Universal?

Cheers Armin

[Steven Tribe]

The content and font style on the 30cm Universal is exactly the same as as 36cm Heliar I have from some years earlier - the actual size of the individual letters and numbers is smaller. The diameter of the 30cm is 83.7mm.

I reproduce the voigtländer universal drawing from 1926. This is obviously a "mock-up" drawing as:

-softness numbers 0 - 5 are written 90 degrees different from the actual sold items.
-there are "graduations" below 0 and above 5 marked.
-there is no second aperture scale engraved.
-the barrel is shown as one unit - so the internal turning mechanism hadn't been decided before the sketch was made!

Strangely enough, the same illustration was used in a 30's catalogue I have!

So as the text style was the same on every size objective (the figures/letters just got larger) I would suggest that all the early sizes of Universal were sold without the Universal label. They waited until a decision was made about a new text style and then added "universal"?

[CCHarrison]

Wow - interesting discovery. I went back in my notes for my Heliar page, and I indeed now find the Universal Heliar advertised as far back as 1927. Commerical Photographer magazine Vol. 2 Issue # 7, has an ad that mentions: "Send for a booklet on our new Heliar-Universal Lenses."

I had 1932 listed in my article as the start for the Universal Heliar...I have updated it to state "about 1926."

Heliar article: http://www.antiquecameras.net/heliarlenses.html

Dan

[Tim Deming]

Next question!
I have restricted movement (only to position 2) - any experience with servicing (grubb screws, concealed screws and etc.)?

Hi Steven,

I have taken apart my 48cm Uni-heliar for cleaning and similar stiffness in the lens adjusting ring. For the 48cm, you need to take the aperture adjusting ring off to reveal the screws which hold the front group adjusting ring in place. In your lens, it looks like these screws (for removing the front group) are visible on the sides of the barrel (although i would personally take the aperture ring off too to see if anything else is there). Once I removed the screws holding the front group in place, the group just unscrewed from the front (the screws act as a stop to prevent movement past "5"), just keep unscrewing past "5" and the front will eventually come off. As with mine, it sounds like you will have difficulty unscrewing the front group since the lubrication has dried up (and hopefully the front has not been banged or dented out of shape, which may make disassembly impossible). In my case, I was able to soak in a bit of fine oil and hexanes (lighter fluid will work) into the threads and was able to slowly work them (back and forth) loose enough to turn. I would only do this if you are confident in yourself and that you will be able to get the lens apart to clean afterward! Once apart, it's easy to clean all the movement, lens glasses, and re-lube.

good luck

Tim

[Steven Tribe]

I am notorious as a "do-it-yourself" person so I will have a go. Can you remember how long the front cell thread is? The lens has lived it's whole life on a studio camera so it in great condition. Apart from the wear of the rim black enamel - so the softness adjustment was used a lot!

[Tim Deming]

not very long, maybe 1/2 cm total threaded thickness at most (something like 5-6 turns of the barrel). Once I got the front group moving, things got easier and easier. The first 1/8 turn movements were the hardest. Mine was tricky as well since the bore is so big (~5 in diameter) --very easy to get stuck.

cheers

Tim

[Steven Tribe]

I have just a single screw on the outside - about 5/8s of the way down from the rim to the aperture. I have now managed to turn succesfully right through to 5 - but it remains too stiff to do it when mounted on the camera! The thread for the front cell must be very long.

[Steven Tribe]

Thanks for your comments Tim. I get the impression that the mechanism/assembly has been changed in the Universal's life so I will attempt getting at the first few threads through the "join" with lighter fuel. My experience is that it is the external thread starts which pick up the dirt/air are harden through time. It is amazing to see the centre element rush forward with just a small turn.

[cowanw]

Interestinly I have just come into posession of a Universal Heliar 251550 (so 1926) also with no universal in the ring. It looks precisely like yours but 36cm. Same soft focus numbering. Same everythig. So I think it is safe to say the Universal marking appeared somewhwere between 1926 and 1936. Maybe others can narrow that down more.
Regards
Bill

[Steven Tribe]

So another addition to your splendid Heliar page Dan!

[Steven Tribe]

OK, Bill. So I have one which is just 205 earlier than yours! Having a Graf variable, which came out a few years earlier, I get the impression than the designers at Voigtländer have had this objective in front of them when making decisions about appearance. The Graf variable also had a different rim the first year or so of production saying "patent pending".

Another explanation for the lack of universal labelling could be that they wanted to get it into the market place as soon as possible and just used the "ordinary" Heliar rims which were in stock - rather than waiting for the custom designed rims to be supplied.

[Armin Seeholzer]

Mine is from around 1933 and it has the Universal on the front!
No. 672206

Armin

[Steve Hamley]

Another explanation for the lack of universal labelling could be that they wanted to get it into the market place as soon as possible and just used the "ordinary" Heliar rims which were in stock - rather than waiting for the custom designed rims to be supplied.

They're not the same size; at least on my "regular" 36cm coated Heliar and my coated 36cm Universal Heliar. The Universal is a different design. It isn't just a regular Heliar with a movable center element.

Cheers, Steve

[CCHarrison]

Steve,

I believe the Universal Heliar is the same design as the 1902 F/4.5 Heliar.

Dan

[Steve Hamley]

Dan,

I believe you are correct; the Universal Heliar never changed design with the Dynar-types, it stayed the original Heliar design.

Cheers, Steve

[Tim Deming]

Hey Dan,

Also be aware that many large heliars kept the original design for quite some time, while smaller heliars changed to the dynar configuration very early. This earlier post has more info:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=198336&postcount=6

My guess is that most pre-WW2 large format heliars are the original heliar design.

Has anyone checked a post-WW2 Universal heliar to see if it is in fact still the original heliar configuration?

I response to Steve's post, I agree that the mounts for heliars and Universial-heliars are different -but I believe this is primarily to account for the soft-focus mechanism in the universal, which requires a wider barrel (at least in my 48cm examples).

cheers

Tim

[Steven Tribe]

Having read your interesting contributions and ideas, I must concede that the idea of "using up stock 30cm Heliar engraved rings" cannot be correct. By comparison with other Heliars , I can see that the engraved ring is quite a lot deeper than the usual heliar ring. This means the engraved surface points more towards the centre of the lens, whilst the surface faces more towards the front in an "ordinary" Heliar. I cannot check diameters but I am sure you are right after looking more at the mechanism.

Conclusion:

- Voigtländer did consider this to be a Heliar (Universal version) for the first run. Then changed their minds and introduced the Heliar Universal to match their write-ups sent to the photographic press and distributers. Perhaps an internal communications problem between the production organisation and the sales department?

[Armin Seeholzer]

Or the PR/Marketing crew did not fast enough find a name for it so they just sended them without the additionel name!
If we really want to know it we need to get someone from Voigtländer into this forum which could be tricky because they would be very old to know this story;--)))

Armin

[Peter K]

If we really want to know it we need to get someone from Voigtländer into this forum which could be tricky because they would be very old to know this story;--)))
Or someone who goes to Braunschweig. As I know the Voigtländer archive now is in the townhall's history collection.