New to LF.. 110B conversion or Linhof?

[alexmacphoto]

Hello everyone

I am looking to get a 4x5 camera that I can shoot Fuji instant film with. I want a camera that is easy to use and can give me great bokeh... ala Paolo Roversi.

I have been browsing and have found 2 cameras that seem to be the kind that I am looking for:

Linhof Technika IV

110B Byron with the 150mm/2.8 Xenotar lens

I am looking to spend less than $2000. I have seen all of these cameras on Ebay for about that.

The Technika IV looks like the most versatile, but it seems much heavier and difficult to use. The Byron looks like a great camera but there isn't much detail on the Xenotar conversion.

I have never used large format before but I have extensive experience with medium format and 35mm manual cameras.

Any advice?

[Bill L.]

It's the lens that creates the bokeh, not the camera. There's a lot of good info on this site, it is worth taking a look. In the mean time, you might consider picking up a good crown graphic with working rangefinder tuned to the lens - mine was $300 (though not with a xenotar). It might be worth a try before dropping 2 grand on a camera.

I can't say I've used either of these, but in general, with the polaroid conversions, you are more or less stuck with the one lens. You pay a fair amount of money for a compact box to put the film in (plus the "cool" factor). You'll want to think about exactly what kind of shooting you want to do before investing.

Cheers,
Bill

[alexmacphoto]

I guess I should have been more specific about what I am shooting.

I am a fashion photographer. I want the dreamy look that you get from the tilt/shift properties of the large format camera.

http://www.storyz.com/media/38b8f298-cc32-4940-8cac-98363f508a74/original/12353786_Vogue_Italia_November_2007_A_Woman_Of_A_Singular_Charm_Freja_Beha_Erichsen_Paolo_Roversi.jpg image by Paolo Roversi

I recently did a photoshoot where I tried to get that look in photoshop. It took a long time to do the post work... and I wasn't entirely satisfied with the look.

I decided that I should try shooting in 4x5 next time... and save myself a lot of time in front of the computer.

[Frank Petronio]

If you're tilting and swinging then you'll need to tripod mount it. Even Roversi does that with his 8x10 Deardorff and vintage Dagor lenses.

And once it is on a tripod, the camera doesn't matter so much -- a classic studio monorail will be faster and easier to use, well, in a studio.

As far as bokeh, there is an entire world of lenses and techniques to explore. Roversi only brushes the surface but he is popular and commercially successful. But you might search out the work of Jim Galli for more sophisticated examples to inspire you.

I definitely wouldn't start with a 150/2.8 Xenotar on a 110b Polaroid conversion camera. A Technika V is an excellent all-around camera, but there are so many options and possibilities you really should so more homework before buying something as nice as a Technika to learn on.

I can safely say that you wouldn't go wrong buying a simple, basic pedestrian 4x5 outfit with a normal lens and learn the basics with that. You don't need a $1500 f/2.8 lens to have nice bokeh.

If you have a lot of money, hire me and I'll school you ;-)

[Don Ciccone]

If you need front tilt/swing to achieve selective focus, then you do not want a Byron since it can do neither. The Byron is a converted Polaroid 110b that's considerably lighter than a Linhof and primarily intended for street shooting. Sounds like you may not need a 4x5, there are smaller formats that also offer tilt/swing capability.

Don

[Nathan Smith]

Yep, the converted Polaroid is not going to do what you want to do. In fact, since:

you want 4x5
you want movement, and
you need experience

you should consider an older rail camera - Calumet, Graflex, and B&J's are pretty cheap. Seems like an easy way to try it out - and save your money for a good lens, then you can keep it if/when you decide to move to another camera.
Just my 2 cents.

[Eric James]

Not sure if this conversion is still available:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=59872

[Gordon Flodders]

It depends entirely on whether you want to shoot hand held or use the tripod and GG screen. Tripod method with tilts, swings and shift will definitely give you the results you are after, but it is painfully slow and usually misses the moment entirely. Xenotar 150mm f2.8 exhibits an extremely shallow DOF wide open and critical focus may be missed.
Nothing wrong with a converted Polaroid, providing its rangefinder is accurate. Shooting at f5.6 still gives a very pleasant outlook as LF lenses don't settle until at least f16.

GF.

[Frank Petronio]

I can't imagine the Polaroid RF would accurately focus a 2.8 lens, it has a hard enough time with a 5.6 one ;-p

[Nathan Smith]

You know, for "under $2000" you can have both the Byron Polaroid conversion and a studio 4x5 camera if you're careful.

Maybe you should start out with a hand-held camera like the Byron, have some fun getting used to 4x5, and find out what it can and cannot do. Then, if you find you do need more capabilities, you'll have a better idea of what you're looking for in a studio camera.

... and definitely post examples of your work along the way!

[Ari]

While a hand-held 4x5 will get you accustomed to certain aspects of large-format (loading/unloading/processing film, handling holders, etc.), you won't learn much about the capabilities of the format.
The Byron is a beauty, but it's an overgrown Leica. With a bare-bones studio or field camera you'll have access to lens plane and film plane movements, control of perspective and a host of other tools at your disposal. Save the Byron for street shooting.
If you must have both and are on a tight-ish budget, for what it's worth, Steve Icanberry at Alpenhause does a bang-up job on the 110b conversions for about half the price of a Byron. The interchangeable back system is not as elegant as a Byron's, but just as effective.
Good luck.

[douglas antonio]

i can't really recommend one camera over the other, i myself use a technika V which is a perfect camera for my purpose portrait and landscape.
as someone said before, the lens will be the deciding factor. so go for a decent camera and rather invest more into excellent lenses. 2000$ is also much too high for a technika IV.
as far as i know, roversi did a lot of his work on 8x10 polaroid. fuji 4x5 is an excellent substitute for proofing before taking pictures. but it is nowhere near the strange colour scheme and dreamy blurryness of polaroid. i have worked with fashion pros that used 8x10 polaroid. the results were incredible and we produced billboards using the colour positive print as the original.

so i believe probably using a really old lens with "imperfect" resolution etc. compared to modern lenses would get you closer to the desired bokeh etc.

i guess a few members of the forum will be able to advise you on the lenses needed.

roversi used a goertz dagor 12 inch on 8x10 for a lot of his portrait work if i am not mistaken.

[alexmacphoto]

What about something like a Toyo-Field? The used prices seem good.

As for the look of 4x5 polaroid, I have seen good results from a local photographer

http://behance.vo.llnwd.net/profiles5/96737/projects/209524/967371239517235.jpg

He told me that he shot this with a 210mm lens on an old Sinar.

[joshdaskew]

I could be wrong here but wouldn't you want to start with something like a Speed Graphic and then concentrate on lenses? This camera would have the movements you would need for such work and allow you to attach fast lenses that weren't in a shutter ( 150mm 2.8 Xenotar, Aero Ektar Ernostar etc etc ). I also had a similar enquiry a while ago and put the question out there and that was the response that came back to me. It also allows you to obtain focus with the rangefinder, although having a Xenotar 150mm myself I find it hard enough to obtain focus at 3.5-4, let alone wide open at 2.8!! Lenses are much cheaper in barrel as well. I say this without actually owning one so anyone please feel free to correct me. I have a Chamonix 45n-1 and have used both the 135mm 3.5 and the 150mm 2.8 Xenotar. If you were looking to go the Byron type conversion, I would try and hunt down one of the razzles with movements on the front, then you could switch to groundglass when needing movements, they sound cool.... Although the waiting list is meant to be crazy and once again I haven't used one. Good luck!

[joshdaskew]

This editorial was shot by Paolo Roversi on digital medium format. Nice but as you have pointed out, doesn't have the same drop of depth that he achieves with his older work with the use of the 8 x 10 Deardoff, polaroid film and that Dagor lens.. And must have been some serious post going on here by the very best..

[joshdaskew]

http://www.wmagazine.com/fashion/2009/10/roversi_dream#slide=9

The impossible project also hint at bringing back 8 x 10 instant...

http://www.the-impossible-project.com/projects/8x10

[Daniel Stone]

8x10 polaroid, I'll be waiting, Dagor and all ;).

naw, Roversi's work is pure awesomeness, very inspiring.

there's a woman here in LA that used to use 8x10 with polaroid for a lot of her work, Peggy Sirota. she's all digital now(that I know of), great shooter.

-Dan

[Frank Petronio]

Perhaps Roversi used a medium format digital back on a view camera platform to allow for movements? It looks like some front back tilt and swing towards the right since the right background is sharp. I doubt a skilled Photoshop technician would be so sloppy unless they are trying to make purposeful mistakes to lend authenticity.

Time to get an 8x10, some Polaroid 8x10 processors, and some older lenses since the Xenotar won't begin to cover...

Making movements and seeing their effect on focus and depth of field is far easier w 8x10. You might do better with a nice old studio 8x10 and a 360mm - 14-inch vintage lens and a stack of film than anything else. It gives you bragging rights too.

[Gordon Flodders]

I don't think it's possible to compare a Linhof with a Polaroid. They are completely different in their approach to shooting 4x5. The Linhof has interchangeable lenses, tilt, shift, swing, rise and fall. This will give excellent selective focus but only on a tripod. Anyone who can hand hold it using movements is either a genius or has very steady arms.

If your subject is not a moving one and you want to spend a little time using the ground glass screen and move the focus point to exactly where you want it, then the results will be quite astonishing.

On the other hand, if the subject is impatient and doesn't wish to sit still while you mess around, then the Polaroid is a far better tool. You can focus with the rangefinder and be gone in a second. It's also lighter and faster than a Linhof. I have a Master Tech and it's a gem, but there's no way I'd wander the streets shooting with it held up to my eye, it's plainly too heavy and awkward.

I would bet that the Polaroid rangefinder would have a far better chance of focusing a Xenotar than would the Linhof due to its design, although at f2.8 the DOF of the Xenotar would be insanely small.
Having said that, the Polaroid front standard mechanism would possibly sag under the weight of such a big fast lens.

The essence of hand holding a 4x5 is down to two main considerations, that is speed of handling and weight. My Linhof is like a bowling ball up to my eye in comparison to the Polaroid.
I have an earlier Razzle 900 that has a movable front standard, but using that renders the rangefinder useless and I'm back to using a tripod, which is something I hate.

Selective focus requires a Linhof, Speed Graphic or similar, whereas if I take out the Razzle 900 (or the Littman) I can wander around free of the constraints of a tripod and shoot off a couple of sheets in seconds. That style of shooting 4x5 is worlds apart from using a normal view/monorail camera.

Why compare this camera to that..just use the camera that is appropriate for the job at hand.

GF.

[alexmacphoto]

Ok .. from what I am reading it seems I need a Speed Graphic or Linhof. It is critical that I get selective focus from the camera.

I have an opportunity to get a Linhof Technika IV with a 150mm/4.5 lens for $1000. It is in great shape.

What are my other options? Graflex? Which model? What about Toyo 45CF? It doesn't have a RF, so I assume that I would focus on the ground glass and then slide the polaroid magazine in when it is ready?

[urs0polar]

On the other hand, if the subject is impatient and doesn't wish to sit still while you mess around, then the Polaroid is a far better tool. You can focus with the rangefinder and be gone in a second. It's also lighter and faster than a Linhof. I have a Master Tech and it's a gem, but there's no way I'd wander the streets shooting with it held up to my eye, it's plainly too heavy and awkward.

I do it often with my tech V. yeah, it's awkward and heavy, but with the grip, it's pretty nice. You can support it underneath with the right hand, which also leaves the right hand close for focusing. I agree that movements would be tough hand-held though.


I would bet that the Polaroid rangefinder would have a far better chance of focusing a Xenotar than would the Linhof due to its design, although at f2.8 the DOF of the Xenotar would be insanely small.

What makes you say that? The rangefinder base length is pretty long on the Technika, no? It's all the way up the side of the camera. Certainly longer than a Leica, and some Leicas can focus an f/0.95. If you send the lens to be cammed by Marflex, I'm sure it will be tack sharp at f/2.8 at all distances.

Maybe I'm missing something? (it wouldn't be the first time...)

[urs0polar]

Ok .. from what I am reading it seems I need a Speed Graphic or Linhof. It is critical that I get selective focus from the camera.

I have an opportunity to get a Linhof Technika IV with a 150mm/4.5 lens for $1000. It is in great shape.

What are my other options? Graflex? Which model? What about Toyo 45CF? It doesn't have a RF, so I assume that I would focus on the ground glass and then slide the polaroid magazine in when it is ready?

If tilt and swing are paramount to you, get something that is designed to tilt and swing, like a used monorail like a Sinar F or Linhof Kardan or Toyo whatever. Even the really really nice stuff (Linhof and Sinar) is ridiculously cheap right now (a few hundred $$ and you will have your choice). If you really need RF, then the monorails aren't for you. But everyone above is right when they say it is extremely unlikely you will be doing movements handheld.

The Linhof Technika is justifiably more expensive because it does everything in one package: RF handheld, triple extension, solid as a rock, and LOTS of movements, much more than a speed graphic. However, will you need more movements than a speed graphic? You may not...

[alexmacphoto]

I really would like to have a rangefinder because I would prefer to focus as quickly as possible. I will be shooting on a tripod.

[urs0polar]

I really would like to have a rangefinder because I would prefer to focus as quickly as possible. I will be shooting on a tripod.

Maybe what wasn't mentioned on here is that tilts/swings and rangefinder use are mutually exclusive. From your comments I am guessing you may be hoping to use them both at the same time.

When you tilt or swing, part of the lens plane ends up closer to the film plane while the other half gets farther away (axis tilt), or the whole thing gets closer or farther away, but on an angle (base tilt). After a tilt or swing, the rangefinder is no longer calibrated to where the lens plane is, so you can't use the rangefinder to focus. Thus, unless you want to just guess completely and do scheimpflug in your head, you will have to use the ground glass.

[Gordon Flodders]

What makes you say that? The rangefinder base length is pretty long on the Technika, no? It's all the way up the side of the camera. Certainly longer than a Leica, and some Leicas can focus an f/0.95. If you send the lens to be cammed by Marflex, I'm sure it will be tack sharp at f/2.8 at all distances.


I don't dispute the accuracy of the Linhof rangefinder at all, but the biggest downer is having to focus through a keyhole, (especially difficult in low light) then compose the shot through the finder. I have the Linhof multi-focus unit, but this still means I must set the distance on both the focus rail and then the finder in order to obtain parallax correction in close.
The whole Linhof thing is just too slow and I'm bound to forget to do one thing or the other.
On the other hand, Polaroid's finder is real time connected so you can focus, compose and shoot all at once without taking your eye off the subject. It's almost as quick and easy as using a DSLR. To me, it's a case of horses for courses.

GF.

[alexmacphoto]

Well for better or worse... I am the proud owner of a Linhof Technika IV. I got a good deal on Ebay.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!!

[Frank Petronio]

You can't go wrong with a Linhof Technika, although you may need to send it in to the service center for rangefinder adjustment and a general clean, lube, adjust service. As with all high quality items, the service is expensive. The USA service center is excellent.

You have a steep learning curve all the same. You'll find that using a rangefinder ON a tripod is pretty tough because you will need to move the camera in order to find the plane - surface to focus on and then recompose the photo after focusing. So you can do that, perhaps while the camera is mounted to a loose ballhead, and then tighten it up for the shot, but it's not easy-peasy.

What some people do is use a measuring string or they blast it with a lot of light and stop down or the fix a laser beam to be the focus point or some kind of scheme.

Or they just use really good models who will hold still for the 10-40 seconds you need to move from focusing and composing to exposure. That's what I do and it is most likely what Roversi, Avedon, Penn, etc. did too (and thousands of others).

You can try to get lucky shooting LF on the fly, but it comes down to a crapshoot of blasting away hoping a few sheets are in focus. You do a lot better with a good medium format or digital in these situations. The negative from a Mamiya RB-RZ will usually reproduce with more than enough quality on the printed page to fool anyone into thinking it could be 4x5 as well.

[CarstenW]

Congratulations on that! I just recently bought a Linhof Master Technika, almost the same camera, and I was just out today for the first time. If I didn't screw anything up, I got anywhere between 0 and 10 great shots ;)

In general the camera delivered exactly what I hoped for, although the movements were a little stiff. I will see if there is anything I can do about that, like careful cleaning and lubrication.

I'll try to get some shots of it up in the "Show your Camera" thread as soon as I develop a photo taken with it to go along with the post.

[urs0polar]

I don't dispute the accuracy of the Linhof rangefinder at all, but the biggest downer is having to focus through a keyhole, (especially difficult in low light) then compose the shot through the finder. I have the Linhof multi-focus unit, but this still means I must set the distance on both the focus rail and then the finder in order to obtain parallax correction in close.
The whole Linhof thing is just too slow and I'm bound to forget to do one thing or the other.
On the other hand, Polaroid's finder is real time connected so you can focus, compose and shoot all at once without taking your eye off the subject. It's almost as quick and easy as using a DSLR. To me, it's a case of horses for courses.

GF.

Gordon you are absolutely right. I have struggled with this too. My latest attempt is to frame with the telescoping finder thing on top, then look through the rangefinder, note where the rf window is pointing, then rf focus on what I want to focus on, then point the rf window back at the place that it was when i first looked through it, then take the shot. This minimizes the number of times i have to move my whole head in relation to the camera. After a while of doing this, I know with a certain lens and a certain distance, for instance, i can point at someone's left shoulder and their head will be more or less centered in the final shot, etc. It's not bad, but the polaroid conversion would be much quicker and better for this, you are right. I have wanted a razzle ever since I've heard of them (but since I don't *need* one as I already have the Technika, I buy other stuff instead. I wish I could just save money in these situations. oh well)

Alex, congrats on the Technika!!

[urs0polar]

Congratulations on that! I just recently bought a Linhof Master Technika, almost the same camera, and I was just out today for the first time. If I didn't screw anything up, I got anywhere between 0 and 10 great shots ;)

In general the camera delivered exactly what I hoped for, although the movements were a little stiff. I will see if there is anything I can do about that, like careful cleaning and lubrication.

I'll try to get some shots of it up in the "Show your Camera" thread as soon as I develop a photo taken with it to go along with the post.

Carsten, I'm not affiliated, but I seriously suggest sending your Technika to Martin at Marflex. He will go over everything, and the rates are very reasonable. My Tech V (way older than your master) came back looking like new, it was unbelievable.

[Oren Grad]

Carsten, I'm not affiliated, but I seriously suggest sending your Technika to Martin at Marflex.

Mark, Carsten is in Germany - if need be, he can have it overhauled much closer to home.

[Gordon Moat]

I think a Fuji 680 would solve your needs. You get an SLR view of your subject, tilting lens standard at the front, and medium format roll film. You can also add a Polaroid back or even a digital back. While not numerous, you can find these used at quite good prices. Markus Klinko used a slightly modded one on some of his shoots.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[urs0polar]

Mark, Carsten is in Germany - if need be, he can have it overhauled much closer to home.

oops! Yeah, Germany, Linhof....

[Oren Grad]

oops! Yeah, Germany, Linhof....

But on this side of the pond, Marflex is definitely the way to go. :)

[CarstenW]

Thanks for the tip, Mark, but I actually bought the camera from a Linhof technician :) He has a little side-business buying and selling old Linhof bodies. I guess he is trying to save up a little extra for retirement. Nice guy. The body looks like new, but is likely from the 60s. It was probably bought by a doctor as a status symbol or something like that. Leicas and Linhofs are similar in that respect around here.