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Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:09
As you can tell from my post count, I'm new to the LF forum. I've been going out with the Dallas LF guys for several weeks now and I bought an Omegaview 45E 4x5" and a Fuji 135mm lens from my buddy Eugene who lives down the street. I've had a really great time learning about view cameras, LF film, development, etc. from Bob, Glenn, Michael, and Eugene... thank you very much!

Here's the first image I took with this camera. It was taken Saturday morning at SMU. Eugene developed the 4x5" film and gave me the negatives. I then scanned the negatives on an Epson V700 at 2400 DPI. That produced a "freakishly huge" file that was pretty difficult to work with. Here is the result... obviously reduced in size:

http://www.ParkImaging.com/images/2010/03/26/PIWB_001-2.jpg

A 100% crop of the top of the dome... from the original scanned TIFF:
You can see my fast-and-dirty noise/grain removal from the sky around the iron work.
http://www.ParkImaging.com/images/2010/03/26/PIWB_001.jpg

Honestly, at this point, I'm am hugely disappointed with the results. Why?

1: The negative holders are a PITA to load (which you have to do in total darkness just by touch)
2: The film is somewhat expensive ($1.25 a sheet)
3: You can only take a few (8 for me) images in a day
4: The camera is huge and very difficult to work with
5: It's difficult (for me) to get the composition I want because everything is upside down
6: Development of the film is expensive if you get it done at a lab
7: If you develop the film yourself:
a) it has to be done in the dark (duh)
b) is messy
c) takes forever
d) is easy to screw up
e) you have to wait 24 hours for the negatives to dry
8: Takes forever to get a decent scanned image
9: No EXIF data
10: Dust and scratches EVERYWHERE! The images look like dirt was just thrown on them. You have to spend forever and a day inside Photoshop removing spots, hairs, scratches, etc. This was the worst part for me. IQ just didn't cut it but it could be my fault.

I thought seeing the resulting images would be a great reward for such effort expended. However, I have not seen anything rewarding about the output.

My development materials will be in this week and I'll give it another shot and see if I can make a difference in eliminating dust and just doing it all myself from end to end. Disappointed is about all I can say at this point.

- Wil

Jim collum
30-Mar-2010, 07:24
Sorry it wasn't a pleasant experience. Film workflow isn't for everyone (most of the negatives you state are positives for others). I'm not sure why you'd be removing the grain.. it's part of the structure of a film image. You can lessen it by different film/developer choices.. but the removal makes the image look.. plastic. Dust control has been with film from the beginning... if you continue with it, you'll need to come up with one that works for you (there's plenty of info out there on how to minimize dust while loading holders, developing/drying film and scanning). The worst dust problems i've found is when labs do the processing.

jim

Denis Pleic
30-Mar-2010, 07:26
As the Python crew would say - "look on the bright side of life":
if you decide it's not for you and decide to sell the equipment you purchased, at least you know where to sell it :)
And, you probably won't suffer a big loss (20-30 percent at most)... LF equipment holds resale value much better than the latest digigizmos...
And, at least you can say you tried and decided it's not for you :)

catshaver
30-Mar-2010, 07:30
Sounds like the beginning of a meaningful long term relationship. Everyone in this forum knows that the learning curve is immense. But we celebrate every small victory that comes along. It is a skill that is honed over time. Loading film will become second nature to you, and you'll learn to wipe out your changing bag/tent with a damp cloth immediately before loading film to keep the dust down, and you'll learn to give the film holder a downward rap in your hand before loading, to shake loose any dust on the neg, and you'll also learn to see upside down and backwards as being an advantage in organizing shapes and composition. Getting to know the movements on your monorail camera takes practice practice practice. You'll also learn to use hyperfocal distance to your advantage as well. Do these skills come all at once? Hell no! It takes patience and a love for doing things with your hands.

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:30
Sorry it wasn't a pleasant experience. Film workflow isn't for everyone (most of the negatives you state are positives for others). I'm not sure why you'd be removing the grain.. it's part of the structure of a film image. You can lessen it by different film/developer choices.. but the removal makes the image look.. plastic. Dust control has been with film from the beginning... if you continue with it, you'll need to come up with one that works for you (there's plenty of info out there on how to minimize dust while loading holders, developing/drying film and scanning). The worst dust problems i've found is when labs do the processing.

jim

Jim,

Let me correct what I said before. The experience was definitely a pleasure. It is a lot of fun. It was the resultant images that I was disappointed with.

And when I said, "remove grain" I misspoke. I was really trying to remove a bunch of dust and scratches and the grain ended up going with it. I like the grain but I'm not sure where all of the other stuff is coming from. It's probably all my fault.

Thanks for the heads up on the labs. I was considering using a lab to see if they processed a negative decently. Logic dictates that they would since they do it so often and people pay them to do it. However, I guess there is more to it than that.

- Wil

Jim collum
30-Mar-2010, 07:32
a few vital tools for dust control while scanning

http://kinetronics.com/store/cleanscan.html

http://www.google.com/products?client=safari&q=air+cleaners+purifiers&oe=UTF-8&cat=606&lnk=catsugg

http://www.adorama.com/CHEAS4.html

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:35
Sound like the beginning of a meaningful long term relationship.

THAT is funny!


Everyone in this forum knows that the learning curve is immense. But we celebrate every small victory that comes along. It is a skill that is honed over time. Loading film will become second nature to you, and you'll learn to wipe out your changing bag/tent with a damp cloth immediately before loading film to keep the dust down, and you'll learn to give the film holder a downward rap in your hand before loading, to shake loose any dust on the neg, and you'll also learn to see upside down and backwards as being an advantage in organizing shapes and composition. Getting to know the movements on your monorail camera take practice practice practice. You'll also learn to use hyperfocal distance to your advantage as well. Do these skills come all at once? Hell no! It takes patience and a love for doing things with your hands.

Thanks. I'm sure all of that is 110% true... I know it is. I just need to get back on the horse and try again. There are definitely a LOT of variables between preparation and the final image... many many more than with a digital SLR.

I did learn that blowing off both side of the negatives as well as the scanner with canned air right before the scan helped quite a bit.

- Wil

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:36
a few vital tools for dust control while scanning

http://kinetronics.com/store/cleanscan.html

http://www.google.com/products?client=safari&q=air+cleaners+purifiers&oe=UTF-8&cat=606&lnk=catsugg

http://www.adorama.com/CHEAS4.html

Awesome! Thank you Jim!

- Wil

memorris
30-Mar-2010, 07:36
Several of the points you made will change over time. After a few months I found loading the film holders to be simple.

I can make 20 or so negative in a day easily but try to keep the number down because shooting more does not mean mode good photos. LF shooting includes thinking about each shot, contemplating and pre-visualizing. This make for a much hight percentage of good photographs.

Working with the camera also get easier with use.

Developing film in a jobo drum by hand is not really a problem. I did it that way for quite a while before buying a jobo machine. Yes, as others has mentioned, darkroom workflow is not for everyone, but it may be something that you hate in the beginning and learn to love over time. Except the 24 hour drying time seems way long, my typical drying time is < 2 hours here in Phoenix.

With a drum, developing is not that easy to screw up. I make mistakes all the time and the film is forgiving.

Hang in there for a bit before giving up on lf photography. You may find it grows on you.

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:37
Question: On the Kinetronics website it shows the lab tech wearing gloves. Should I be wearing gloves when handling the negatives or was that just shown for effect?

- Wil

Steve Hamley
30-Mar-2010, 07:38
Wil,

1: Loading holders become easy with practice (except maybe for ULF), so much so you won't even think about it.

2: Film is not cheap, but you can buy a lot of it for the price of a Phase One back. I can't think of buying a new car to save gas.

3: Don't understand, you can take as many as you want.

4: A view camera is more difficult and everyone I know is more critical of the shots they take because of film cost and the camera. But their work in general seems to be better because they aren't taking 1,000 extra shots just because they can. Image management is much easier because you have fewer of them.

But using a view camera isn't for everyone. Personally I like using a view camera, mixing the chemicals and developing film. If you don't, or don't get used to it, a view camera may not be for you.

5: like loading holders, you get used to it (at least most people do) and don't think about it anymore. Some find it better because they have to actually concentrate on the composition and see things they don't see with a corrected image.

6: It can be, but if you're doing B&W there's no reason not to do it yourself.

7: Darkroom time is enjoyable for most of us, but there is a learning curve.

8: 2400 dpi is not needed for most 4x5 scans and likely your scanner is interpolating at this setting. Scan at the maximum rated real resolution, usually between 700 and 1800 dpi.

9: That's what paper and pencils are for. Adams did it with an exposure record, and also kept printing diagrams.

10: Dust can be managed, but you do have to do it in dusty climes.

Sounds like you're not into new experiences, and if so, this may not be a road you want to go down. But you'll have just as many problems with a digital workflow, they're just different problems but maybe ones you're more comfortable dealing with.

Personally I don't like the digital process, but you can create art or document scenes with film, digital, a paint brush or whatever.

Good luck and hope it works out for you.

Cheers, Steve

Alan Davenport
30-Mar-2010, 07:39
None of your "issues" are really about results.

1. It gets easier with experience, but really this is just something most of us have gotten accustomed to having our cameras do for us. LF photography is 100% manual.

2. Yes, but that's not a result.

3. True. Once you get a bit more comfortable with the camera, you'll probably find that you have a higher percentage of keepers with LF. Also, the limited output, enforced by the slow, manual nature of the medium, tends to reduce the cost (your items 2 and 6.) My own experience with large format vs. 35mm film, is that I spend a lot less with 4x5 film than with 35mm, because I can't blast through 6 rolls in a day.

4. "Big" deal. That's why it's called "large" format. Again, gets easier with practice and you'll be the one the tourists point at and talk about.

5. Requires a different way of seeing. I find the inverted image on the GG helps to isolate form and texture from the subject matter.

6. See #2.

7. That's called "photography." Just another one of those things we've gotten lazy about because we're used to having other folks, or our cameras, do for us.

8. Drink coffee while waiting. Or beer. Your choice. The limited number of photos in a day (#3) mediates this problem anyhow.

9. Hallelujah! Finally you've hit on a positive note. There's no histogram, either; hooray! Buy some pocket-sized notepads and a pencil; and write down your exposure data. Why expect your camera to do your work for you? (I use a PDA to keep my data.)

10. Well yes, this is one we all struggle with. Try vacuuming your changing bag and all of the holders just before you load them; that helps me a lot. Also make sure your scanning routine is as dust-free as possible.

There is a learning curve with large format, and I'll also admit it's not for everyone. But keep at it and you might just find a slower, more contemplative form of photography has other rewards.

Jim collum
30-Mar-2010, 07:40
There are often dust removal options in the scanning software... Using too strong a setting will remove detail, as well as give that 'plastic' look..but it can be used to remove a lot of what remains after some of the above methods have been added to the workflow

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Epson%20V700/page_9.htm


The time involved and the wait before you get a final image is all part of the 'zen' aspect of large format photography. I find taking the 4x5 out with film, and the developing process helps in slowing down the pace of life... sort of a sanity check/brake system for me. After you start getting a final image that you're happy with.. you might realize that the time spent becomes something you look forward to, rather than just a long wait

i'd recommend keeping at it!

kev curry
30-Mar-2010, 07:42
What... you've been at it a few weeks and you still haven't completely mastered the whole process of LF photography? That's definitely a sure and unmistakable sign that you should throw in the towel right away. Just ditch the gear, grab the digicam and return to where ever you came from, that's my advice;-)

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:43
Several of the points you made will change over time. After a few months I found loading the film holders to be simple.

I can make 20 or so negative in a day easily but try to keep the number down because shooting more does not mean mode good photos. LF shooting includes thinking about each shot, contemplating and pre-visualizing. This make for a much hight percentage of good photographs.

Working with the camera also get easier with use.

Developing film in a jobo drum by hand is not really a problem. I did it that way for quite a while before buying a jobo machine. Yes, as others has mentioned, darkroom workflow is not for everyone, but it may be something that you hate in the beginning and learn to love over time. Except the 24 hour drying time seems way long, my typical drying time is < 2 hours here in Phoenix.

With a drum, developing is not that easy to screw up. I make mistakes all the time and the film is forgiving.

Hang in there for a bit before giving up on lf photography. You may find it grows on you.

Jeremy,

Thanks for the information. 2 to 3 hours is a lot better than 24! I'm using the HP Combi-Plan tank for development. I don't know anything about a jobo drum or machine but I'll google it and read up.

I also need to either bring my DSLR and use it's spot meter or get a dedicated one with the zones on it... which is probably a better idea. My sekonic only does incident readings. I guess I could just sell it and upgrade to a better sekonic.

- Wil

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:46
Wil,

8: 2400 dpi is not needed for most 4x5 scans and likely your scanner is interpolating at this setting. Scan at the maximum rated real resolution, usually between 700 and 1800 dpi.

Sounds like you're not into new experiences, and if so, this may not be a road you want to go down. But you'll have just as many problems with a digital workflow, they're just different problems but maybe ones you're more comfortable dealing with.

Good luck and hope it works out for you.

Cheers, Steve

Steve,

Thanks for that scan info. I wasn't sure so I just did a bit of reading and went with 2400 DPI. And I'm definitely into new experiences... it has just been a lot more *new* information all at once. It's like trying to take a drink from a firehose.

- Wil

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:49
The time involved and the wait before you get a final image is all part of the 'zen' aspect of large format photography. I find taking the 4x5 out with film, and the developing process helps in slowing down the pace of life... sort of a sanity check/brake system for me. After you start getting a final image that you're happy with.. you might realize that the time spent becomes something you look forward to, rather than just a long wait

i'd recommend keeping at it!

Jim,

I've seen some REALLY excellent work from the LF guys. I guess I was expecting too much from myself right out of the box. Being a 35mm guy for so long you get used to knowing exactly what to expect and what your results will be. Getting into LF has thrown me was out of my comfort zone and that's probably just where I'm at right now. I just need to figure out all of the issues and learn to be comfortable in both zones.

- Wil

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 07:53
None of your "issues" are really about results.

1. It gets easier with experience, but really this is just something most of us have gotten accustomed to having our cameras do for us. LF photography is 100% manual.

2. Yes, but that's not a result.

3. True. Once you get a bit more comfortable with the camera, you'll probably find that you have a higher percentage of keepers with LF. Also, the limited output, enforced by the slow, manual nature of the medium, tends to reduce the cost (your items 2 and 6.) My own experience with large format vs. 35mm film, is that I spend a lot less with 4x5 film than with 35mm, because I can't blast through 6 rolls in a day.

4. "Big" deal. That's why it's called "large" format. Again, gets easier with practice and you'll be the one the tourists point at and talk about.

5. Requires a different way of seeing. I find the inverted image on the GG helps to isolate form and texture from the subject matter.

6. See #2.

7. That's called "photography." Just another one of those things we've gotten lazy about because we're used to having other folks, or our cameras, do for us.

8. Drink coffee while waiting. Or beer. Your choice. The limited number of photos in a day (#3) mediates this problem anyhow.

9. Hallelujah! Finally you've hit on a positive note. There's no histogram, either; hooray! Buy some pocket-sized notepads and a pencil; and write down your exposure data. Why expect your camera to do your work for you? (I use a PDA to keep my data.)

10. Well yes, this is one we all struggle with. Try vacuuming your changing bag and all of the holders just before you load them; that helps me a lot. Also make sure your scanning routine is as dust-free as possible.

There is a learning curve with large format, and I'll also admit it's not for everyone. But keep at it and you might just find a slower, more contemplative form of photography has other rewards.

Alan,

You're right. I was basically looking at all of the differences with LF and digital 35mm and casting a slightly negative tone to the LF side. However, none of the differences really matter to me in the least. Nor do they have anything to do with image quality. I really just want to end up with a spectacular image... which I know is possible.

- Wil

Robert Hughes
30-Mar-2010, 08:35
What a great thread! :D Imagine what the OP would say about his first experience with sex:

1: The clothes were a PITA to take off (which you have to do in total darkness just by touch)
2: The bedding is expensive ($1.25 a sheet)
3: You can only do it (8 for me) times in a day
4: The swollen reproductive organs are huge and very difficult to work with
5: It's difficult (for me) to get the position I want because everything is upside down
6: Getting the video onto YouPorn is expensive if you get it done at a lab
7: If you do the deek yourself:
a) it has to be done in the dark (duh)
b) is messy
c) she takes forever - I was done in seconds!
d) is easy to screw up (where do you put this thing?)
e) you have to wait 24 hours for the sheets to dry
8: Takes forever for her to get me a decent cup of coffee next morning
9: No cell phone reception in her bedroom
10: Dust and scratches EVERYWHERE! The sheets look like dirt was just thrown on them. You have to spend forever and a day inside the bathroom removing spots, hairs, scratches, etc. This was the worst part for me. My IQ just didn't cut it but it could be my fault.

Duh! :p

Bob McCarthy
30-Mar-2010, 08:35
Check out your scanner the platen is usually a source of much dust, use a pec pad and a good non-ammonia window cleaner,

Keep the negative in a sleeve and blow off before use.

Do not pixel peep when touching up the scanned file. 50% is about where dust becomes visible in a print. Do NOT go to 200% and try to clean every nuggie. Your be busy for days, and get nothing for your efforts.

Scan at 1800 dpi.

For a first effort the building was very good. You should have seen my first print from a big negative. Flat not very sharp, focal plane not nailed.

But the point is, that was 30 years ago. Give it time, very quickly you'll get the process down. Too many moving parts at first.

Not implying it takes 30 years. It happens quickly, don't worry

90% comes quickly, maybe in a matter of months if you work at it, last 10% will take a lifetime.

bob

Steve Hamley
30-Mar-2010, 08:53
Steve,

It's like trying to take a drink from a firehose.

- Wil

It certainly can be! I just loaded two 8x20 film holders with Efke 25 I got from Michael Kadillak's recent special order. It's a new emulsion to me, but I've read enough off this forum and used similar films to where I think I know where to start.

A lot of times I don't want to stick my toe in the kiddy pool, I want the deep end; no tofu and electronic cigarette photography please, give me the rare 2" thick porterhouse and the Cuban cigar of film!

Cheers, Steve

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 08:53
What a great thread! :D Imagine what the OP would say about his first experience with sex:

1: The clothes were a PITA to take off (which you have to do in total darkness just by touch)
2: The bedding is expensive ($1.25 a sheet)
3: You can only do it (8 for me) times in a day
4: The swollen reproductive organs are huge and very difficult to work with
5: It's difficult (for me) to get the position I want because everything is upside down
6: Getting the video onto YouPorn is expensive if you get it done at a lab
7: If you do the deek yourself:
a) it has to be done in the dark (duh)
b) is messy
c) she takes forever - I was done in seconds!
d) is easy to screw up (where do you put this thing?)
e) you have to wait 24 hours for the sheets to dry
8: Takes forever for her to get me a decent cup of coffee next morning
9: No cell phone reception in her bedroom
10: Dust and scratches EVERYWHERE! The sheets look like dirt was just thrown on them. You have to spend forever and a day inside the bathroom removing spots, hairs, scratches, etc. This was the worst part for me. My IQ just didn't cut it but it could be my fault.

Duh! :p

ROFL... that's funny!

- Wil

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 08:57
Check out your scanner the platen is usually a source of much dust, use a pec pad and a good non-ammonia window cleaner,

Keep the negative in a sleeve and blow off before use.

Do not pixel peep when touching up the scanned file. 50% is about where dust becomes visible in a print. Do NOT go to 200% and try to clean every nuggie. Your be busy for days, and get nothing for your efforts.

Scan at 1800 dpi.

For a first effort the building was very good. You should have seen my first print from a big negative. Flat not very sharp, focal plane not nailed.

But the point is, that was 30 years ago. Give it time, very quickly you'll get the process down. Too many moving parts at first.

bob

Thanks Bob. UPS just delivered all of the chemistry we talked about so I'll try to give it another shot tonight in the studio. It will be fun to hook the view camera up to the PocketWizards. Now if I can just find a subject...

- Wil

Heroique
30-Mar-2010, 09:01
… I guess I was expecting too much from myself right out of the box ... I just need to figure out all of the issues and learn to be comfortable …

Comfortable, yes – but make sure that doesn’t mean “complacent.” That’s the greatest psychological risk to my photography. Repeated trips to the field may ease what once were practical difficulties, but it shouldn’t “ease” one’s imaginative effort.

BTW, I think your long list of disappointments shows a willingness to examine and improve each step of your process – the sign of a sensitive LF photographer! But in addition to each disappointment, why not append a “why,” and propose a “solution.” That is, convert it into a journal to record ideas & refer back to:

For example –

“1: The negative holders are a PITA to load (which you have to do in total darkness just by touch).”

Might be –

1: The holders are a PITA to load in the dark. Mainly, it’s difficult to line-up & properly position the film in the holder’s guide rails. Maybe I’ll sacrifice a sheet of film and practice this in the daylight until it becomes second nature. Also, I keep forgetting to make sure the holders are closed – all the way! Next time, I’ll start putting a rubber band around each of them as a final step to the loading process. Plus I’ll search the LF forum for additional ideas about this vexing step.

Good luck with your efforts! With experience, you’ll find things will start “clicking.”

;)

Wil_Bloodworth
30-Mar-2010, 09:09
Heroique,

Thank you! That is an excellent suggestion. I'll work on that.

- Wil

ic-racer
30-Mar-2010, 09:09
You have a reasonable picture on your first attempt. Perhaps photography has actually become too easy these days thanks to dissemination of info on the internet and some rapid digital processes. Imagine if you had gone out and purchased a canvas and some paints.

Keep at it. Kudos to you for presenting and discussing your difficulties.

As I typed that a 50-sheet box of t-max 400 8x10 film just appeared at my doorstep. I'm off loading filmholders.....!

Roger Thoms
30-Mar-2010, 09:13
A lot of good comments so far. I will comment the upside down image. My girl friend hangs out with me on many of my photo trips. I often show her my composition on the ground glass. Recently after she had viewed a composition I asked her if she noticed that the image was upside down. Her response "it was, really?". I don't know exactly when her brain started flipping the image but I suspect it happened quite a while ago.

Roger

Shawn Dougherty
30-Mar-2010, 09:26
It was the resultant images that I was disappointed with.
- Wil

If you expect to get the ultimate results possible with the format your first couple of times out... and/or your first time developing (or several times) yourself - well, of course you're going to be disappointed.

This is a craft, a real skill that - like anything else worth doing - takes time, practice, experience and care.

----------
Edit: many posts popped up before mine went through.... anyway - if you enjoyed it at all - stick with it. Your results WILL improve and as has already been stated: it becomes addictive! Good luck!!!!!! Shawn

Gem Singer
30-Mar-2010, 09:28
Wil,

As I've been telling you, "It isn't rocket science".

After a few times, it becomes easier. Like riding a bike. Be patient.

Your exposures were in the ball park. No need to purchase a newer, fancier meter.

B&W film is very forgiving. Curves and levels in Photoshop can work wonders when you miss the exact exposure.

Blowing dust off of negatives is merely one phase of the operation. Dust particles begin to appear the moment film is removed from it's box.

Fortunately, dirt and scratches can be removed very easily with the healing tool in Photoshop.

I think you did a pretty good job with your first attempt with a large format camera.

William McEwen
30-Mar-2010, 09:48
Hi, Wil:

Your complaints are well organized and succinctly presented. Were you able to do this at birth? Or did it take time to learn to write, write well, and organize your writing?

A large-formatter complaining about this stuff is like a baseball player saying what he doesn’t like about baseball is the bases, the bats, the gloves, swinging the bat, catching balls, and standing and running on grass.

To address some key points (not in your order)

Film holders.
Wipe down your surface with a wet paper towel and dry with a dry paper towel.
Go take a shower. This gets all the dust off of you.
Clean each holder with a 1-inch paintbrush used only for that purpose. Remember to wipe dust out of the channel in the trap door at the bottom.
Stack your holders and turn out the light.
Open the film box and pull the film out of the envelope. Lay it across the inside of the box so the bottom of the negatives are inside the box and the top of the negatives is hanging out over the top. Take your time. Think happy thoughts. As you finish loading each one, put it in a different stack.
Do you have a beard? I notice that dust is more of a problem when I’m not clean-shaven.
You’ll get the hang of it. It becomes easy quite quickly. I rarely have a spot of dust on my negs.
Put your holders in a clean plastic bag.

Seeing upside down.
Stop complaining! You won’t even notice that after a while. I only shoot portraits. Once I photographed a woman standing on her head. I looked at the groundglass and it startled me for a second – she was rightside-up!

Cameras
I shot 4x5 for about six years and loved it. A Sinar Alpina, so well made and easy to use. I made contact prints. I knew I wanted my pictures to be bigger, and I thought for a long time about whether to buy an enlarger to enlarge my 4x5s, or an 8x10 camera to make bigger contact prints. Michael Smith told me he recommended a bigger camera, but reminded me I had to decide for myself.

I bought an old Burke and James 8x10. I didn’t care for the camera, but it did give me a bigger negative. At this point, I didn’t know whether I had made the right decision. After using that wreck for about five years, my father died and left me a little money so I bought an 8x10 Wisner. Using that camera was a dream from day one. Still is. This is a long-winded way of saying having the right camera helps.

Speed
I started like so many others, with a 35mm camera that I used for years. From the beginning, I frequently used a tripod. I found 4x5 (and later 8x10) was well-suited for my personality. I don’t care for rapid shooting. I like to shoot when everything is right.

When I photographed Kellie Rasberry (some of you know who she is), she asked me why I didn’t use a regular camera. I said maybe I consider this a regular camera. She said, well with a regular camera, it will go faster. And I asked, “Is faster better?”

Keeping with it
Mastering the equipment takes time.

I think you’ll find that everyone on this forum enjoys the LF process, and we are all addicted to the big negative.

Why did you invest in LF and start down that road? What can LF give you that your DSLR cannot? Keep that in mind as you muster through...

Have fun!

William

Jack Dahlgren
30-Mar-2010, 10:03
Honestly, at this point, I'm am hugely disappointed with the results. Why?

1: The negative holders are a PITA to load (which you have to do in total darkness just by touch)
2: The film is somewhat expensive ($1.25 a sheet)
3: You can only take a few (8 for me) images in a day
4: The camera is huge and very difficult to work with
5: It's difficult (for me) to get the composition I want because everything is upside down
6: Development of the film is expensive if you get it done at a lab
7: If you develop the film yourself:
a) it has to be done in the dark (duh)
b) is messy
c) takes forever
d) is easy to screw up
e) you have to wait 24 hours for the negatives to dry
8: Takes forever to get a decent scanned image
9: No EXIF data
10: Dust and scratches EVERYWHERE! The images look like dirt was just thrown on them. You have to spend forever and a day inside Photoshop removing spots, hairs, scratches, etc.

You wouldn't be exaggerating about it if you didn't enjoy it...

Paul Kierstead
30-Mar-2010, 10:12
You are disappointed with image quality.

Q: How are you judging image quality? Did you make a print (digitally or otherwise)?

Mark Sawyer
30-Mar-2010, 10:23
Wil, I think you're ready to move up to 11x14...

Preston
30-Mar-2010, 10:43
Ah, Will, thanks for the memories!

Everything is hard at first, but once you develop a good system and hone your skills, it will be easier. There really is no 'end game' with photography; realization of your own working methods and style is an evolutionary process. Just relax, and enjoy the ride.

--P

h2oman
30-Mar-2010, 10:44
My experience is that if you can't embrace the process, LF will probably not be fulfilling.

You may also have one misconception: I don't find myself screwing up developing very much, or at all, and I'm pretty new to it. However, I have screwed up just about everything else possible when making the image! :D

rco3
30-Mar-2010, 10:51
My first 4x5 was reasonably well-composed, well-exposed, sharp and in-focus. It's a usable shot, except that the film was loaded emulsion side in - thanks to the nice gentleman from whom I acquired the camera and who instructed me in its use. Now it's just a dark, angry red landscape. Neat effect, but not what I was going for. I'd say you did pretty well, all things considered.

leighmarrin
30-Mar-2010, 11:01
Wil wrote:
4: The camera is huge and very difficult to work with
5: It's difficult (for me) to get the composition I want because everything is upside down

Wil, you might try using a press camera like a Speed Graphic. I have several view cameras, but usually end up using my 4x5 Pacemaker, as I too dislike composing upside down. It has far fewer movements than a view camera, but I usually don't need them anyway, and I like using the wire "sports finder" and/or optical viewfinder. Plus, I can always use the ground glass if needed.

Michael Alpert
30-Mar-2010, 11:07
Given your list--which was filled to the brim with complaints, misunderstandings, exaggerations, melancholy, self-absorption, and silly impatience--I think you should find something else. The bulk, weight, upsidedownness, mess, dust, endless slowness, expense, and threat of scratches will follow you; with this kind of picture-making, you'll never get rid of them.

William McEwen
30-Mar-2010, 11:16
Given your list--which was filled to the brim with complaints, misunderstandings, exaggerations, melancholy, self-absorption, and silly impatience--I think you should find something else. The bulk, weight, upsidedownness, mess, dust, endless slowness, expense, and threat of scratches will follow you; with this kind of picture-making, you'll never get rid of them.

Michael, yours might be the wisest response to Wil's post.

I felt he needed a pep talk and a little more experience before we tell him to hit the abort button. But my affection for LF could be clouding my judgement.

brian mcweeney
30-Mar-2010, 11:26
[QUOTE=Wil_Bloodworth

9: No EXIF data



Pad of paper and a pen. ;)

EdWorkman
30-Mar-2010, 11:30
Bear in mind that not every dust mite need be removed.
It is possible to stick one's nose into the print to see grain , dust, etc, but at that point one can't see the picture, apparent depth produced by tonality, etc., so there is no point in doing it. This is particulary true with LF account all the crud doesn't get magnified much . A read-up on "circle of confusion" should give you some idea of size of discernable detail, viewing distance etc. Then try some. I once did , from close up, a lousy job of spotting out white globs from a rather uniform sky, but I was pleased/relieved/surprised to see that , at the viewing distance required to actually look at the picture [ca 10x40 inch from not all of a 6x17 cm neg] the retouching was not noticeable. So 4x5 to 16x20:grain-schmain, and ditto for all but the most egregious dirt. Not that one shouldn't work toward clean- but don't obsess when it can't be seen.

ret wisner
30-Mar-2010, 11:48
never quite understood the use of a film camera only to turn it into a digital file/print.
i cant imagine i would like the results

for me a lf camera is for contact printing only, if you want a bigger print buy a bigger camera, so my advice...

use a digital camera for digital prints and a film camera for contact film prints, once this level of zen is achieved you wil too understand the attraction of large film.

quality not quantity, tone is my zone

photographs42
30-Mar-2010, 11:58
There is an old saying about the difference between a speed boat and a sailboat. The difference is:

If you are on a speed boat you are going somewhere. If you are on a sailboat, you are already there.

LF is like a sailboat. The journey is as much a part of the experience as the end product. If you don’t enjoy the journey, you probably won’t be pleased with the product. There are two sides to LF photography (true for any form of photography but more so for LF). The Artistic side and the Craft side. Like any craft there is a learning curve that simply takes time to mature. Learning to use the tools of any craft is a part of the journey.

For me, the act of working with a promising subject to get everything the way I want it is a huge part of my enjoyment in using a big camera. A successful image as a result is icing on the cake. If you enjoy the journey you will eventually cherish the product.

Jerome

jnantz
30-Mar-2010, 11:59
hi wil

sorry that your friends made it seem so easy ;)
stick with it, and soon enough some digi-convert
will hang around you one weekend and you will make
it look easy too ...

everything takes practice.

don't forget to have fun
- john

rdenney
30-Mar-2010, 12:48
Upon complaining about the rigors of being a freshman at a university, I heard some wisdom from an upper-classman:

"Welcome to college."

Rick "embrace the challenge or find a different one--your choice" Denney

ret wisner
30-Mar-2010, 13:24
i have a question....

what is exif and gas?

Robert Hughes
30-Mar-2010, 13:34
what is exif and gas?
Let's try that newfangled gadget, the Interweb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchangeable_image_file_format), see what it says...

"Exchangeable image file format (Exif) is a specification for the image file format used by digital cameras"

"GAS, or Gear Acquisition Syndrome, is a term used to describe an urge to acquire and accumulate lots of equipment. " We've all been there, yep...

ret wisner
30-Mar-2010, 13:43
exif would have been a easy search , the one i was most interested in was gas, thanks now i fell complete.

i dont have gas, i do have sticky tape and barrel lens syndrome though

many thanks

Robert Belcher
30-Mar-2010, 13:49
So that's your first image. I, too, am new to large format photography, and if that was my first image, I would have been prowling the galleries to see who would represent me. My first image was, let's see, blank. I used a film holder that had no film. My second image was only slightly better-- so overexposed that there was only a couple of faint lines that even indicated an image was there. I've been at this for about six weeks and I have yet to get an image that wouldn't be used for a "What Not To Do" column in a some magazine--no, not even there because they couldn't cover it all in one column. Wait 24 hours for your negativers to dry? How about 10 days turnaround from a mail order film processor to see something that doesn't even resemble a photograph.

However, with all that, I love getting out and trying and, I think, improving. I still don't have an image I am willing to post on this forum but I am hooked on the process--and I will eventually get one I am pleased with from a technical standpoint and later from an artistic (?) standpoint. In the meantime, I spend some quality time with myself, breathing fresh air, seeing some of the most beuatiful scenery on God's earth, doing--no trying to do something I love, and having a hellava good time.

Like learning to ride a bicycle. You keep getting back on and trying. Keep the faith!!~

Jack Dahlgren
30-Mar-2010, 13:56
Let's try that newfangled gadget, the Interweb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchangeable_image_file_format), see what it says...

"Exchangeable image file format (Exif) is a specification for the image file format used by digital cameras"

"GAS, or Gear Acquisition Syndrome, is a term used to describe an urge to acquire and accumulate lots of equipment. "

The interesting thing with your comment is that a Google search of "EXIF format" would have probably taken less time than sending the question here.

And google would have answered without judging.

Of course there is always the possibility that the question was rhetorical.

ret wisner
30-Mar-2010, 14:06
haha i have the ability to read words over and over and not really desire to understand them, ive had this talent from birth.

gas is a perfect example, i read a entire apug thread about gas and yet i still didnt get what it was, most entertaining though..

i wa getting close to inventing my own G.A.s , queen tribute band etc

Mark Sawyer
30-Mar-2010, 14:53
At the risk of sounding "elitest"...

In this era of "I got a dslr, so I'm a photographer", one of the nicer things about large format photography is that it isn't for everyone.

Henry Ambrose
30-Mar-2010, 19:41
If you think this is fun now, wait until you forget to pull the darkslide. (you find this after you develop the film and wonder what happened to your picture - what picture?) Or can't remember if you pulled the darkslide (hmmm... do I shoot this piece of film or... did I already?) . Or you pull the darkslide with the holder out of the camera (after you made a picture on that sheet). Or any of about 100 other things you can do to screw up your picture. Then its really fun.

Chris Strobel
30-Mar-2010, 19:42
Wil, I like your building image.Well done.

Chris

Chris Strobel
30-Mar-2010, 19:45
If you think this is fun now, wait until you forget to pull the darkslide. (you find this after you develop the film and wonder what happened to your picture - what picture?) Or can't remember if you pulled the darkslide (hmmm... do I shoot this piece of film or... did I already?) . Or you pull the darkslide with the holder out of the camera (after you made a picture on that sheet). Or any of about 100 other things you can do to screw up your picture. Then its really fun.

Or my favorite, you press the cable release and lock it for a 2 min. exposure only to realize afterwords when you go to release the cable lock the shutter speed was on 1/60th :D

Andrew O'Neill
30-Mar-2010, 20:02
Good grief. Don't get discouraged from a bit of dust. Just make sure your film loading area is clean and the same goes for all your holders. I always wipe down the counter with a damp cloth, then my holders get a thorough cleaning with canned air and a wipe down with tac cloth. The holders are then slipped inside plastic zip bags. My camera gets a good vacuuming and wipe down on the inside. Take care where you hang your film after development to dry.
You image is quite nice, other than the shadows appear a bit dark. Can't really tell much from the scan though. What film are you using and EI? Developer?

Robbie Shymanski
30-Mar-2010, 20:02
For the record, dust is just as much, if not more, of an issue using DLSRs. Having just gone through a series of shots where I was shooting snow and white walls and realizing, once I was zooming in on a large monitor, that I had at least 30 specks or recognizable dust across the plane of my sensor. It takes much less time to remove dust from a film holder and or sheet with my own breath than it does to edit them out in PS.

Merg Ross
30-Mar-2010, 20:38
Your disappointment may be a result of not using film in the traditional sense. That being, making prints through either contact printing, or optical enlargements. I am unfamiliar with your process, however, dust has never been a great concern over my many years of using film. Perhaps, you are attempting to combine two processes that are not compatible for achieving your desired result.

Doremus Scudder
31-Mar-2010, 02:15
"The simplest tools require the most skill."

"...and take the most time."

View cameras are like this. Be thankful you are not using hammer and chisel ;-)

You've received lots of good advice here about camera handling, dust, film loading, developing film, etc. but one thing remains. It all takes skill and time, and always will. And, there will be lots of screw-ups along the way because, as you mentioned, it's easy to screw up with LF. If you can't deal with these, as well as the monetary expense, or if the pace of LF is not geared to your shooting style, then maybe it's not your "instrument." I like to liken photography to music. Being a photographer is a lot like being a musician. But, what instrument do you play? Do you play classical, jazz, rock-and-roll, etc.?... Maybe you just don't like the genre.

FWIW, in this long thread, here's my take:

I'm happy to shoot eight negatives a day. I was ecstatic yesterday, I shot 10 negatives of eight set-ups in only six hours (after a couple hours loading filmholders and several hours the previous day developing 21 negatives)! Of course, it's the finding of a potential scene that takes the most time, I can actually set up the camera now and get a shot or two off in under 10 minutes ;-) I enjoy the exploratory mission of discovery that I undertake when I set off to photograph. My work is shot for display in galleries, however. I have no commercial pressure; in fact, I don't even work well when there is any time pressure on me whatsoever.

Most of my negatives, however, don't make it to a final printing. I work long and hard for relatively few "keeper" images. If I had to give you a "photographs/hour" figure, it would be rather low. That's the nature of the beast. It's still faster than painting or sculpture.

Here's one way, however, you might be able to speed things up a bit.

I found out quickly that looking for image possibilities with LF was a lot different than with an SLR. Looking through the camera with LF requires setting it up. I now only set up when I've decided (and I mean really decided for sure) that I would like to make a photograph. It is rare that I set up the camera and then not expose film. However, before unpacking and setting up, I have found and composed my image, know my tripod location and height, and have a good idea of which lens I will use. How? By using a simple tool, a viewing frame. You can make one easily from a 4x5-inch card with the appropriate dimension hole (proportionate to 4x5) cut in the middle. And guess what? The image is right-side-up in the viewing frame! I rely heavily on mine for speeding up the image-finding process. Much less setting up, deciding to move, tearing down and re-setting up (or moving camera on tripod while lugging equipment bag...). Try it, it may speed up your work flow.

Also, as Merg Ross mentioed above, there are inherent time-consuming aspects of "fligital" work flow (film-digital). Dust specks come in from more numerous sources, and they're so easy to see at 500% of a 2400dpi image.... Sharpening, deciding on curves, contrast, etc., etc., adds so many more parameters to the process that you may find yourself spending more time in front of the computer than behind the camera. Those of us who work strictly traditionally are often thankful for the smaller number of available options and tweaks. You might give traditional printing a try.

Best and good luck,

Doremus Scudder

zoneVIII
31-Mar-2010, 04:12
I've got my final print that satisfied me, after more than 5 years since i start my LF and darkroom

John Jarosz
31-Mar-2010, 04:39
Since you're coming from 35mm, remember that you won't enlarge the neg much more than 3x on a regular basis (even 4x). So the dust doesn't get enlarged that much and you won't see most of it. 4x5 will never be like 35mm. For most of us here that's why we do LF. Heck, 8x20 will never be like 4x5 either. I'm lucky to get 3 or 4 exposures in one day. I couldn't afford to burn thru film like 35mm users do. And I don't throw as much away either. There are benefits, but you may have too many preconceptions about what photography is to benefit from the plusses of LF.

J.B. Harlin
31-Mar-2010, 07:25
Working with LF (or ULF) is a slow and methodical approach to photography. . . you cannot rush, or you will make more than your share of mistakes. Do not push too hard. . . do not expect too much your first try, nor your first year. It is about the mistakes you make. . . do your best not to repeat them. The rewards of your perseverance will be great!

Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst. -Henri Cartier-Bresson-

Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop. -Ansel Adams-

Never give up. . . unless your heart is just not in it.

Lower your expectations, but never your standards.

Eric Biggerstaff
31-Mar-2010, 07:47
Well, LF is a challenge and not for everyone, if you stick with it long enough the enjoyment is well worth the learning curve.

As for the image of Dallas Hall, it is very nice and brings back a lot of memories from my years at SMU. I graduated from there way back in 1986 and it is where I started my more or less formal training in photography (which amounted to a few classes only but served to light the fire).

Hang in there, it takes time but in time you will gain the needed experience and LF will become another well sharpened tool in your photographic tool box.

pocketfulladoubles
31-Mar-2010, 09:22
THAT is funny!
I did learn that blowing off both side of the negatives as well as the scanner with canned air right before the scan helped quite a bit.

- Wil

And, (at least I do) store each holder in a ziplock bag. And then put all the ziplock bags in a big ziplock bag. Return after use. Helps a lot...

Diane Maher
31-Mar-2010, 10:42
If you think this is fun now, wait until you forget to pull the darkslide. (you find this after you develop the film and wonder what happened to your picture - what picture?) Or can't remember if you pulled the darkslide (hmmm... do I shoot this piece of film or... did I already?) . Or you pull the darkslide with the holder out of the camera (after you made a picture on that sheet). Or any of about 100 other things you can do to screw up your picture. Then its really fun.

I did that in Florida a couple of months ago. :o I had another exposure, but I'd forgotten to take into account my filter factor, so the negative is underexposed. I'll just have to get that one printed and see what I can get out of it.

Chris Strobel
31-Mar-2010, 11:29
By using a simple tool, a viewing frame. You can make one easily from a 4x5-inch card with the appropriate dimension hole (proportionate to 4x5) cut in the middle. And guess what? The image is right-side-up in the viewing frame! I rely heavily on mine for speeding up the image-finding process.

Ahh the viewing frame!Good advice.Its the most prized piece of photographic equipment I own!I keep one in my car, another in my wife's car, and yet another in my house/studio.Often on Sundays my wife and I will go for scenic drives, and I take only the viewing frame.If I spot a good scene or subject, I return with the camera at a latter date when I know the light will be in the ball park of what I see in my minds eye.

Frank Petronio
31-Mar-2010, 11:58
You're scanning the film's grain, it may look awful at 100%. Produce a print and your concerns will evaporate -- you'll see a clear improvement over digital quality-wise.

welly
1-Apr-2010, 04:09
I've got to say, most of the points you made are exactly why I love LF photography. I've only been shooting LF for a couple of months now, being a digital/almost fully automatic boy before. This is like a breath of fresh air. You're not taking photographs, you're actually creating something.

I absolutely love the entire process, from the loading film holders to the finding a scene to shoot and then choosing not to, then finding somewhere far better and getting that shot, to messing around with chemicals and then to finally have an image you can physically hold in your hands and know that you've been entirely responsible for creating that. I love it!

Some of your points.. how can you be "hugely disappointed" because there's no exif data? That's insane! What exif data do you want? You should know your aperture, your iso and your shutter speed. You know what format you're shooting and with what lens. It's all there.

I can develop 4 sheets of film in 15 minutes, some guys here can probably develop significantly more than that in the same time. I'll keep all those shots too. And I certainly don't develop in the dark, I develop in my bathroom with the lights on.

I'm not sure how anyone can't be absolutely taken by LF photography from the instant they start it.

msk2193
1-Apr-2010, 06:21
Will, thanks for starting a provocative conversation.
I am actually learning something and enjoying the comments.

Wil_Bloodworth
1-Apr-2010, 07:17
Merg,

I think it's just ignorance on my part. Even when I was using 35mm film, I simply sent the rolls to a lab a few days later received my prints and negatives.

Now, there is a lot more to think about and pay attention to. Last night was the second time for me to load film holders; which I loaded four. It took me less than half the time to load twice as many film holder on the second go 'round. I also paid more attention to the holders in that I tried to desperately ensure they were very clean and dust-free.

I'll shoot some more images this weekend and then try, for my first time, to develop the 4x5" film myself. That should be interesting to say the least. After all the reading and researching, I believe that a development "H" instead of a "B" with HC-110 and HP5+ will work best for me. The longer times will allow me to relax more, think more, and I think will keep my highlights from blowing out while bringing out more shadow detail... that's the plan anyway!

Thanks again everyone for all of your positive comments and views!

- Wil

Wil_Bloodworth
1-Apr-2010, 07:43
If you think this is fun now, wait until you forget to pull the darkslide. (you find this after you develop the film and wonder what happened to your picture - what picture?) Or can't remember if you pulled the darkslide (hmmm... do I shoot this piece of film or... did I already?) . Or you pull the darkslide with the holder out of the camera (after you made a picture on that sheet). Or any of about 100 other things you can do to screw up your picture. Then its really fun.

It is a bit ironic... I had Eugene, Michael, and Bob talking me through the steps for my first shot. It probably wasn't necessary (or what it!) but I think it was a good and enjoyable time. So, then when everything was ready, the lens was closed and cocked, Bob says, "Ok, pull the dark slide and take the photo". I reached up and pulled the dark slide... the rear one! Everybody yelled, "NO!"... in slow motion if you can imaging how that would transpire.

Oh well, no biggie. The other four images came out great and I didn't make the "ruin the rear sheet of film" mistake again.

- Wil

J Ney
1-Apr-2010, 09:22
I also need to either bring my DSLR and use it's spot meter or get a dedicated one with the zones on it... which is probably a better idea. My sekonic only does incident readings. I guess I could just sell it and upgrade to a better sekonic.


Also take a look at the Pentax digi spotmeter... it is an actual gem of a tool, especially if you want to fully utilize the zone system. I used to haul around my dSLR but never again! The spotmeter is now my default metering system even if I'm shooting with a camera that has TTL metering.

Steve M Hostetter
1-Apr-2010, 16:25
hello Wil,,,

I'd say ya did purdy good considerin you didn't get any light leaks which is a common beginner mistake :D

Get ya one of those Jobo expert drums that holds 10-4x5's and quit throwin your money away at the lab..!

That Jobo drum is super easy to load .. there are ridges in there and you just slide your film down in them. There is also a slot that would be in the center of each film so when you feel that slot you know that portion is empty and to slide a film in.

Also, put masking tape on the top of each film holder wrapping it over each darkslide to make sure your darkslides don't vibrate out in your camerabag on the road..

Now after you process your negs have a container that you have drilled 3/8-1/2" holes all around the top in for air and run a wire from side to side to hang your negs on and put a lid on it..! This will keep dust off while they dry.. The container needs to, oh be one of those kitty litter tubs for instance,, nice and deep in case you ever wanna do 8x10 stuff..

I usually drill holes all around the top just under a protruding plastic ridge so to better help keep falling dust out.. Prolly overkill but oh well..

Now If you wanna see all this on a video find that ole boy,,oh whats his name,,,,, Oh yeah, his name is Michael Gordon... He is a member here so just go to the member list and look him up..! He will walk you through the whole process and you'll see there ain't much to it at all..

Oh, and you'll have the nicest negs you could ever have imagined !!!!!! :)

Well, Good luck Wil !

best regards
steve

CarstenW
2-Apr-2010, 03:40
Filling in the gaps:

The tank referred to is the Jobo 3010. They cost about $300 used. Here is one on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330417878221

Here is Michael Gordon's video, very nicely done, explains everything well (could be shorter, he tends to say everything two or three times, but then that reinforces the points he makes too):

http://vimeo.com/7459143

You'll also need a change tent to load the Jobo, if you don't already have one. A change bag would work in a pinch, but the cloth would probably get in the way. The Harrison Change Tent is popular:

http://www.cameraessentials.com/harrison_film_changing_tents.htm

William McEwen
2-Apr-2010, 04:55
Merg,
I believe that a development "H" instead of a "B" with HC-110 and HP5+ will work best for me. The longer times will allow me to relax more, think more.. - Wil

...scratch more... :D

Wil, it's always something!

Carlos R Herrera
2-Apr-2010, 06:31
I then scanned the negatives on an Epson V700 at 2400 DPI. That produced a "freakishly huge" file that was pretty difficult to work with.

http://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/info/articles/pshoptipsmain.html

This has been posted before elsewhere on the forum...

Click on the Guide File Workflow. Rich still uses this workflow even though he has much faster MACs now to work with those huge Tango scans. Why mess with success...

CH

Steve M Hostetter
3-Apr-2010, 11:35
I wouldn't pop the cash for a changing tent considering it's easier to make your bathroom dark and load film in there.. Changing tent will only increase your chances of scratching your negs.
The only time I use a tent is in the field, which isn't often.
You will need a roller base and I found it a good idea to cut some strips of to sided tape and rap the wheels so that your drum doesn't wonder off the rollers. Just cut em 1/2" wide and let em fold over the sides of the wheels so they don't wanna come off when you lift the drum.

Wil_Bloodworth
5-Apr-2010, 11:11
That video using the Jobo is superb. That looks to be about 1000 times easier than using the HP Combi-Plan tank. I just put the HP tank together this weekend and it's got to be about $2 worth of plastic and rubber... far shy of the $80 price tag. It appears the Jobo is far superior to it in every way.

I am assuming you can use any developer using the Jobo. Anyone use the same pyro that he uses in the video? Is there a substantiated value in using it versus Kodak's HC-110?

- Wil

Darren H
8-Apr-2010, 07:23
Will-

All of that is part of the joy and aggravation of large format.

I mainly use Fuji Quickloads-that solves alot of the issues of dealing with holders, dust, developing. There is a cost to that, but for me it has always been a cost I was willing to pay to not have those problems. Of course, I am mainly a color guy.

Now I did borrow a regular film holder and have just finished and sent off my fist batch of hand loaded B+W for processing. I thought the whole process was a PITA, I'll have to see hoe scratched up they are.

I can say so far, I much prefer the easy of use of Quickloads over handloading.

I have spent several years chasing large format landscapes (color E-6) and along the way, I got some good ones. But it is alot of work. Think more work of quality over quanity. There are alot of images I miss do to speed of the camera setup, etc. You gotta be there early, set up, wait for the light.

I was late to the digital game, and I have a 50D. Decent enough and honestly the 20x30's it can do are really good enough for me. Heck the 12x18's I do from my Panasonic LX-3 point and shoot are often good enough. Sure the 4x5 is better, but I dont print that often at 40x50". For 16x20" prints the DSLR is probably easier and "good enough". I do the 4x5 for the experience.

Actually, I usually set up the 4x5 and wait for the light to take 1-2 images of a composition. At the same time I have the 50D working anything else I see. I get images I like out of both. But I can go much longer and much wider on digital.

Its all just a tool to use.

Brian Ellis
8-Apr-2010, 10:24
It takes a while to get used to everything - I was ready to quit after the first few times but I stuck with it and was rewarded. I do a lot of digital these days for a variety of reasons but I still enjoy LF much more.

I would add that if you've been using an excellent digital camera and lenses, if you also used a tripod and your technique was otherwise very good, and if your prints are no larger than something in the 13x20 range, you're unlikely to be totally blown away by 4x5 IMHO. Better, yes, "blown away better," not in my experience. The best DSLRs are better than 35mm, are the equal of my old Pentax 67 system, and are close to 4x5 until you get into larger prints. At least that's been my experience.

msk2193
8-Apr-2010, 11:38
Will-


I mainly use Fuji Quickloads-that solves alot of the issues


Will knows I do the same, but they are already running out of the Velvias at many stores. Just bought a bunch to put in the freezer, but self loading wil have to become part of the hobby!

CarstenW
8-Apr-2010, 12:24
Michael, sorry for interjecting this in the wrong thread, but I see that you use a 75mm with a Master Technika. Having just started with a Master Technika and 90/210 f/5.6 Schneiders, I am already wondering about adding a 75mm, but the constraints on movements would frustrate me a bit, I think. Could you briefly discuss the use of this lens on the MT?

Bill Kelleher
20-Apr-2016, 03:01
As the Python crew would say - "look on the bright side of life":
if you decide it's not for you and decide to sell the equipment you purchased, at least you know where to sell it :)
And, you probably won't suffer a big loss (20-30 percent at most)... LF equipment holds resale value much better than the latest digigizmos...
And, at least you can say you tried and decided it's not for you :)

Bill Kelleher
20-Apr-2016, 03:03
Oh thanks Denis, I've been whistling "always look on the bright side of life"all morning:)

Kirk Gittings
20-Apr-2016, 05:31
Hope you are not expecting a response. You are responding to a six year old thread :)

seezee
20-Apr-2016, 12:21
If the film cost is a deterrent, look into x-ray film. There's a (too-)huge thread about it here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?48099-Use-of-X-ray-film-technical-discussion-with-example-images). Even the pricier Ektascan B/RA works out to 25¢ per negative on 4×5, including shipping. And you can load it under a red safe light!

EDIT: Just saw the above-post. Oops. And I see that the OP sold his gear in 2010, so I doubt he's on the forum anymore.

Jim Graves
25-Apr-2016, 22:39
Great thread, though ... fun to re-read it.