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urs0polar
28-Mar-2010, 19:11
Hi,

Just got an 8x10 P2 off of the auction site, and I'm new to Sinar. The "fine focusing knob with the depth of field scale" on the rear standard says 4x5 on the depth of field scale ring.

Is that normal, or did I not get an 8x10 rear standard, even though I have the 8x10 back and rear frame?

Any help appreciated, and I can post pictures just let me know

Thanks, this forum is great.

-Mark

Dirk Rösler
28-Mar-2010, 20:02
The Sinar System catalogue explains the Special Bearer P2 as "Reinforced lower portion of the rear stan- dard of the Sinar p2 with shift mechanisms, asymmetrical swing and tilt capabilities, greater shifting displacements and a depth of field scale for the 8x10′′/20x25 cm format."

So it should have a 8x10 scale. Also the horizontal portion of T shaped bearer should be wider than the normal bearer.

Have a look at p. 21 of this PDF, item 433.52

http://www.matrix.cz/profifoto/PDFS/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf

However: the standard bearer is also usable for 8x10, so I think it is fine to say that this was a P2 8x10. "Carrier Frames 4x5′′/10x12.5 cm, 5x7′′/13x18 cm or 8x10′′/20x25 cm (433.26/.27/.58) can be mounted on this bearer. Special Bearer p2 433.52 is recommended when the 8x10′′/20x25 cm format is used frequently."

urs0polar
28-Mar-2010, 20:08
... and the front standard, when shift is zeroed to 8x10, has no left shift as the knob is in the way.

So it appears that I have a 4x5 P2 with an 8x10 rear frame and 8x10 ground glass back. I guess I've been scammed.

An 8x10 P2 sold as such should have the special 8x10 standards that allow full movement, right? I'm new to Sinar, so I'm learning as I go...

Any help is appreciated, thanks

Dirk Rösler
28-Mar-2010, 20:14
See recent amendment to my post… your rear bearer is usable for 8x10.

I am new to P myself, and have the same problem getting the front aligned with the back on 5x7. There seems to be no more sideway shift left afterwards like you say…

I wish one could replace the DoF scales.

urs0polar
28-Mar-2010, 20:15
The Sinar System catalogue explains the Special Bearer P2 as "Reinforced lower portion of the rear stan- dard of the Sinar p2 with shift mechanisms, asymmetrical swing and tilt capabilities, greater shifting displacements and a depth of field scale for the 8x10′′/20x25 cm format."

So it should have a 8x10 scale. Also the horizontal portion of T shaped bearer should be wider than the normal bearer.

Have a look at p. 21 of this PDF, item 433.52

http://www.matrix.cz/profifoto/PDFS/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf

However: the standard bearer is also usable for 8x10, so I think it is fine to say that this was a P2 8x10. "Carrier Frames 4x5′′/10x12.5 cm, 5x7′′/13x18 cm or 8x10′′/20x25 cm (433.26/.27/.58) can be mounted on this bearer. Special Bearer p2 433.52 is recommended when the 8x10′′/20x25 cm format is used frequently."

Hi Dirk,

Yeah, looks like I've been "eBayed"... :(

The funny thing is, it's from a brick and mortar store that people on this forum generally recommend.

I'm hoping they will make me whole when I call them tomorrow.

Man, I've already bought filmholders, a lensboard adapter is on the way, I bought trays as my 4x5 method will no longer work with 8x10... so disappointing.

Thanks very much for the help and I will definitely refer to the catalog you referenced when I call.

urs0polar
28-Mar-2010, 20:18
See recent amendment to my post… your rear bearer is usable for 8x10.

I am new to P myself, and have the same problem getting the front aligned with the back on 5x7. There seems to be no more sideway shift left afterwards like you say…

I wish one could replace the DoF scales.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that makes two of us...

Well, I haven't left feedback yet, so I am going to try to get the real thing, as I've paid real money for it (as I'm sure you have as well).

With 8x10, I have about 1mm of left shift (if that) on the front standard before the knob stops me.

Stephane
29-Mar-2010, 00:02
I use normal sinar p standard with the 8x10 with no problem. To line up the front and back, place the dots on the shift and rise scale on zero (red dot?).
I dont use the depth of field scale, but surely you could find the conversion factor somewhere. Dont see the problem really, maybe the price you paid?
These special 8x10 standards are very expensive, and can do without.
Sad you will send it back because the sticker on the depth of field does not say 8x10... Just try your camera instead.

sanchi heuser
29-Mar-2010, 11:15
Hi Mark,

to put not a second mistake to the first you should read this:

if you might decide one day to buy a 8x10 wide angle bellow for
your p2, than take care that it has the right measures!

There are two different models of 8x10 bellows for the Sinar cameras !!!
And there are a lot of these bellows sold on ebay or elsewhere
without any comments on the two different sizes!!!


For the standards I would follow Stephane's advice and try to work with the
regular standards, as others did it before.
The p2 special standards are rare and expensive, you might need several months
to get one and spend a lot of dollars.
Maybe you talk with the seller to get some money back, I'm also of the opinion
that the buyer should be informed precisely over the specs of a product, especially
when it's not a 99 Cent item. In this case there should have been a notice like:
Regular standards, no special bearer!
The simple fact that so much sellers offer the 8x10 p or p2 without telling
that, is no excuse.


I think it's not the problem to replace the DOF scale (sorry I can't tellyou how :o ).

And don't forget that the Sinar p2 is one of the best LF systems.



sanchi

Robert Fisher
29-Mar-2010, 11:44
Metering back Sinar 810's require the larger of the two bellows.

For a hobbyist (like me) and having owned both 45 & 810 rear standard bearers on 810 Sinar P & P2's, IMO the difference in the standard bearers is a non issue.

urs0polar
29-Mar-2010, 14:57
Thanks all for the replies!

Yes, if I set both to the red circle or correct white dot ("8x10"), then the front frame is centered on the rear frame. The problem is that in order to shift with the normal bearers, you have to move *both* of them in opposite directions, instead of just one of them. And you have to do the same sort of idea for rise and fall, although I assume you could do something interesting with the base tilts and tilting the rail itself.

If that were the only thing wrong, I could see what you all are saying, and if I couldn't afford the special bearers (which I probably can't), I might try to live with it even though the description left much to be desired.

However, I found after further investigation that it gets worse:

Last night, I also noticed that the front bubble level is empty (no liquid, and hence no bubble).

That wouldn't even be the end of the world (I'd ask for some money back), but sadly there's more: the base tilt lever on the rear standard bearer goes past the zero mark, and the rear standard doesn't lock down super tight (it moves if you push on it), so I imagine that inserting filmholders and getting fuzzy images is just going to be an excersize in frustration. I suppose I could get it fixed, but I'd rather pay "mint" money for something that's "mint".

Neither of these issues was mentioned in the description.

I really want to like it, guys, I do! I just don't think this is the one, which is very disappointing, because these don't come up that often. I am still in the market for a P2 -- I figure that if I want a monorail 8x10, that's the one to get, and it is a beutiful piece of engineering, no doubt. Either that or I just get the 8x10 Color Kardan.... or a Norma and spend the rest on film (haha). So much for fancy assymetric whatevers ...

update:
I just talked to them; I think they are going to take care of me; they seem very nice, so I'm feeling a bit better, even though I will have no camera.

Thanks all

urs0polar
10-Apr-2010, 21:49
update (for anyone else who searches the forum and wants to know the result): turns out that I'm keeping it. The rear standard actually locks extremely tightly, it's just that the rail flexes a bit. It turns out that my Sinar 8x10 back is a metering back (at least i think so, it has the little hole and the pivot/swivel and so forth). I would have gotten the metering back anyhow as I want to check out ground glass metering anyhow. So, it's just heaaavy and flexes and I mistook that for a bad rear standard. The whole camera (front, back, bellows, rail + ext rail) weighs 22 pounds!

So, the fixed bubble level should arrive next week, and I'm taking everyone above's advice and not worrying about the 8x10 vs 4x5 rear standard. I complained to the seller, and they are ordering me a new DOF scale for 8x10 direct from Sinar. I'll just use indirect rise and fall and I'll be fine.

Thanks everyone, this forum is invaluable!

tbirke
13-Apr-2010, 01:38
For your reference a picture of my 8x10 p2 special holder: the depth of field scale states "8x10" and the centimetre scales are wider.

What also to consider when hunting for a p2 8x10 on eBay (I took more than a year to find mine, and spent almost 2000€ for it, which seems a hefty price nowadays.) is the bank holder. Most people sell Sinars P2 with a Bank holder 1, which is quite less comfortable and cheaper than the bankholder 2(http://www.sinar.ch/images/stories/produktuebersicht/grossformat_zub/gf_zub_35.jpg)

Dirk Rösler
13-Apr-2010, 02:12
Interesting. My newly acquired p2 says "Sinar Digital" on the DoF scale. What's that all about?

As others have noted, I doubt that the wider and slightly longer rear bearer is really useful in practice (read: worth the extra money and effort to hunt one down). But then, I paid half the quoted €2000 with a lot of extras (I have rails coming out of my ears), including the #2 clamp. Only problem - you guessed it - dry levels! :eek:

sanchi heuser
13-Apr-2010, 09:12
[QUOTE=Dirk Rösler;579116]Interesting. My newly acquired p2 says "Sinar Digital" on the DoF scale. What's that all about?


Hi,

for the upcoming 8" x10" digital sensor I guess :eek:



Sinar will know it:

http://www.sinar.ch/en/european-service-center


Regards
sanchi

CarstenW
13-Apr-2010, 12:42
Interesting. My newly acquired p2 says "Sinar Digital" on the DoF scale. What's that all about?

I would guess that they used a smaller CoC to calculate them, since digital pushes the envelope of the ancient standard CoC quite a bit. Have you compared the scale to a regular scale? I would guess that the Sinar Digital one has less DoF for the same aperture.

Dirk Rösler
13-Apr-2010, 19:32
Have not compared in detail, but my impression is that the f marks are very close together, indicating a short lens.

How difficult is it to change these scales?

tbirke
14-Apr-2010, 02:29
does anyone use it? I never did, and guesswork was OK for landscape work 99% of the time.

Dirk Rösler
14-Apr-2010, 02:49
True, I don't use it and it usually works. I use the tilt calculator on the F though.

sanchi heuser
26-Apr-2010, 10:24
Some information about the Sinar system components:

http://www.image2output.com/user_resources//TextFiles/pdfs/284_0_prka_komp_e.pdf