Using a 47mm XL

[Ed Richards]

Just got a somewhat beat up 47mm XL today which I need to test to see if it is optically OK. Am I correct that I have to stop to f22 to get it to cover 4x5? At less than that do get vignetting, or just loss of image definition - I am thinking a sharp center and soft edges might be interesting on an ultra wide.

Any other tips? I have an Ebony 45SU and a bag bellows, so in theory I should be good on a flat board.

[Kirk Gittings]

Ed, I primarily used mine as a 6x9 lens for which it is superb-with tons of movement.

[Ed Richards]

On 4x5 I am assuming it is the ultimate box camera - but I am hoping it will be the perfect lens for cathedral ceilings.

[Kirk Gittings]

A few times, backed into a corner, I just stopped it down, used it on 4x5 on axis and just cropped it to whatever was usable. It saved my butt a few times.

[Henry Ambrose]

Just got a somewhat beat up 47mm XL today which I need to test to see if it is optically OK. Am I correct that I have to stop to f22 to get it to cover 4x5? At less than that do get vignetting, or just loss of image definition - I am thinking a sharp center and soft edges might be interesting on an ultra wide.

Any other tips? I have an Ebony 45SU and a bag bellows, so in theory I should be good on a flat board.

You don't have to use f22 - I used to shoot mine at f16 regularly. Try a test at f11 to see what you get (fine I think).

Your camera will work better with a recessed board. The bellows will tie you up with a flat board, not that you'll be able to use much movement, but you will want what you can get.

Its an excellent lens.

[Ed Richards]

> Your camera will work better with a recessed board

true, but my fat fingers do not.:-) i will report back on how the flat board works.

[Paul O]

I found that a recessed panel was more useful with the 47XL on my Ebony 45SU - a flat panel does restrict the movement available; although you won't get much opportunity to employ movements on a sheet of 5x4 due to the coverage of this lens.

[Ed Richards]

Paul and Henry,

Ebony does show a sense of humor in saying that this lens can be used with the 45Su with a flat panel. Just tried it this morning - I can just get it focused at infinity before the standards collide.:-)

Paul - were you using the bag bellows? Given the tiny amount of movement this lens will give, I am not sure the bag bellows will be a problem.

Henry - good tip. I just shot a series 8, 11, 16, and 22. That will give a good lens test as well as let me figure out what happens to the image circle.

[Ron Marshall]

Don't forget a center filter!

[Ed Richards]

Fall off is not as bad as I expected, and I can see little difference between F8 and F22 - clearly the lens maker was being very conservative in rating the image circle. I did not shoot a blank wall, so the fall off just pushes the shadows to black, which confused me for a minute because it makes edges look less sharp.

If I shot color, the center filter would be a necessity. For black and white, I sort of like the look - saves edge burning.

[Kirk Gittings]

For black and white, I sort of like the look - saves edge burning.

My thoughts exactly. Even on color strobe lit interiors we would not worry about hot edges-light it to match the lens-checking it on Polaroid. I never bought the center filter and used the 47 professionally for maybe 10-15 years.

[Steve Hamley]

Here's the cure for fat fingers with a recessed board - the Linhof 001015 "Comfort" board. I use it so that the shutter controls can be accessed when using Lee ND grads. You'll like everything about it except the price.

Cheers, Steve

[Ed Richards]

Steve,

I have one that I use on a different lens, but I got it for a lot less than current market. I would love another, but $500 is a stinker. I suspect that Linhof could make a lot more money selling this for $150 than $500.

[Sean Galbraith]

Do you need to use a center filter for interior shots with a lens this wide?

[Steve Hamley]

Ed, I agree, it's not the kind of thing you'd buy unless you really need it'

Sean, I'd think very much needed based on similar lenses, like the 55mm Apo Grandagon pictured.

Cheers, Steve

[Henry Ambrose]

Do you need to use a center filter for interior shots with a lens this wide?

Yes, and very much yes if you are shooting color.

[Ed Richards]

As Kirk said, depends on your aesthetic, plus your client's wishes. I like the burned down edges look, so the fall off does not bother me. I also make sure I do not have important detail at the edges of ultra wide shots. Not always possible in commercial work.

[Armin Seeholzer]

I never used a Centerfilter or maybe one time on this lens. It depens what you do and what is your intention.
In the beginning I testet the lens with a normal red filter the corners where a bit strong vignetting, with the filter in front!
A normal filter can only be used with a 6x12 or 6x9/6x7 back.
Armin

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

This is a crazy lens on a 4x5". I tried at first to use it over a ground glass on a Techinkardan and gave up. Then I got it on a Cambo Wide with the lens in a helicoid. On the Cambo Wide you focus with scale and stop down to f 16 and everything is in focus. For straight lines you level with the bubbles and then you need a place to hide if you don't want to be in the picture. You should not try to use it without the center filter if don't fancy vignetting. It is not very well suited for landscapes, all you get is a steep foreground and a distant horizon, but it turns every crummy single room into a ballroom.

[Bob Salomon]

This is a crazy lens on a 4x5". I tried at first to use it over a ground glass on a Techinkardan and gave up. Then I got it on a Cambo Wide with the lens in a helicoid. On the Cambo Wide you focus with scale and stop down to f 16 and everything is in focus. For straight lines you level with the bubbles and then you need a place to hide if you don't want to be in the picture. You should not try to use it without the center filter if don't fancy vignetting. It is not very well suited for landscapes, all you get is a steep foreground and a distant horizon, but it turns every crummy single room into a ballroom.

There is no problem using a 47XL on a Technikardan if it is used with the correct lensboard for the camera. In the case of the TK23 or 23S a 001143 board (flat 0 board without a cable release nipple) and the wide angle bellows is all you need. For the TK45 or 45S a 001047 lensboard (6mm recessed with a cable release nipple) and the wide angle bellows is required. With the TK45 and 45S and TK23 and 23S you can use as short a lens as the 35mm Apo Grandagon with the proper board and the WA bellows.

[Henry Ambrose]

For a literal interpretation over the entire sheet of film you will want to use the center filter.

Really.

[Ed Richards]

Straight from the camera, 47mm, f16, no filters at all, 4x5, TMY-2, scanned, resized and sharpened, no adjustments on lighting or fall off:

http://www.epr-art.com/working/1998.jpg

The little black spot in the lower left is the camera shadow, and one on the right side is a tree that I thought was out of the frame- it is a pain to keep out of the image.:-)

This is an abandoned house on the Mississippi Coast that was never rebuilt after Katrina. The dark shadows in the foreground are other trees just out of the frame. This was very directional early morning light.

[Steve Hamley]

Since Ed has posted one with the 47mm, here's one with the 55mm Apo-Grandagon. I think you can see a similar falloff, but it looks more pronounced because of the even sky and the color transparency. I think the falloff actually helps with the impression of "explosion" of the flame azalea on the Appalachian Trail. Interestingly, the lens was only about 12-18" from the small shrub. I did not use the center filter because it was very windy and I couldn't stand the loss of speed, or I would have done a with/without pair.

So once again, the question of a center filter has to be decided by the photographer and the effect he or she wants. I'd hesitate to lay a 4x5 chrome of an evenly lit interior with this falloff on a picky person's desk, but falloff can work for you even with color.

Cheers, Steve

[Ed Richards]

Chrome does emphasize the fall off because of the contrast. But I think fall off looks more dramatic with color than black and white because the color changes with falloff, while with black and white the grey just gets darker.

[Henry Ambrose]

Fall off -can- look nice.
Not always though.

[Gary J. McCutcheon]

This may be a good place to ask this question regarding the 47mm XL and its use on a Linhof Technika. I have a Super Technika V and have been considering upgrading to a Master Technika 2000 in order to use the flap on the top of the body to get more rise. I can get about 5mm rise inside the body before it hits the bubble level. Based on what I've read here, it would be a waste of money to upgrade the body only to find lack of coverage anyway?
Anyone use this lens with the Technikas that can illuminate this issue? It looks like even 5mm of rise on 4x5 would be well into the edge of the image circle. Any other information on this combination would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Ed Richards]

Could you even focus this on a Technika? I have not tried the wide angle adapter, so that might do it. You can get 5-9mm movement, but I have not tried it yet because I need a recessed lensboard first.

[Bob Salomon]

Could you even focus this on a Technika? I have not tried the wide angle adapter, so that might do it. You can get 5-9mm movement, but I have not tried it yet because I need a recessed lensboard first.

Yes, on either the original Linhof Wide Angle Focusing Device or the current Helical Focus Mount for the 47mm when used on a IV, V or Master Technika. On the Master Technika 2000 or the current 3000 no adapter is needed. For the IV through the Master Linhof offers 3 different Helical Focusing boards, one each for the 38mm, 47mm and the 58mm.

Neither is a recessed board. On the Wide Angle Focusing Device a Linhof 23 board is used. The Helical Focus Mount comes on its own special board and for the 2000 or 3000 the 001120 Linhof flat lensboard is used.

[Ed Richards]

Final verdict

It is a keeper. Once I got alignment issues out of the way - no problem there - and got a recessed lensboard - which did help - I could shoot a new set of test negatives. I identified two problems with my previous test shots. For most lenses, I just shoot a landsape with buildings and trees, and the trees provide the fine detail. I realized, after doing comparisons with the same scenes shot with really sharp lenses, that field of view is so dramatically wider that the usual detail I would look for now falls at or below the resolution level. Second, because of the falloff, and because I tend to go for thin negatives, the detail in trees was being lost as the falloff pushed the fine dark detail below shadow density. Correcting for all of that left me with uniformly sharp negatives. It covers the whole 4x5 even at f8, but the falloff is probably worse. There is a little room for movement at 16/22, but not much.

Bottom line, this is a bugger to use well, and without a center filter, you need to think about falloff and shadow density at the edge, not the center. But there are somethings it will do that nothing else will. I will add a center filter when I find a cheap one, and a Linhof comfort board when I hit the lottery. But for 650 rather than 1250 for a really specialized lens I will not use often, it is a good balance.

If anyone has a gem they want to sell me for $750, I have a few more hours before I have to return this one.:-)

[BetterSense]

Couldn't a center filter be made with some litho film? I mean has anyone tried making one out of litho film or with inkjet transparency film, and seen how well it worked? I don't understand why they have to be so expensive.

[Ed Richards]

If you are shooting negative film, and it is not a high contrast scene, you can over expose and use the vignetting correction in photoshop to correct the fall off. That will be my solution in scenes where it matters.

[rdenney]

Couldn't a center filter be made with some litho film? I mean has anyone tried making one out of litho film or with inkjet transparency film, and seen how well it worked? I don't understand why they have to be so expensive.

I think you'll find that producing a filter that does not leave any artifacts on the image is more difficult than it seems like it ought to be. But there's nothing stopping you from proving me wrong. And if you find a method that works predictably, maybe you can sell me one for cheap.

Rick "markets reward innovation" Denney

[Steve Hamley]

Final verdict

Bottom line, this is a bugger to use well, and without a center filter, you need to think about falloff and shadow density at the edge, not the center. But there are somethings it will do that nothing else will.


That's a pretty fair appraisal of anything wider than 65mm. Set up time is a PITA, getting standards square and centered, using the CF or a ND grad, but as you noted, when it works there's nothing like it.

Cheers, Steve