Price: Toyo or Toyota

[Matthew Runde]

Why is large format equipment so expensive? For example, a new jade-green Toyo VX125 currently costs $4,674.95 from B+H. The Kelley Blue Book base value for a 1995 Toyota Corolla is $4625.00. The Toyo seems to have no electronic parts, w hile the Toyota has many. Admittedly, Toyota probably produced more 1995 Coroll as than Toyo did 2001 VX125 cameras. Still, why so much?

[Jonathan Brewer]

Robert White out of the UK sells the Black Toyo VX125 for $2316.45, almost cutting in half your price from B&H, but irregardless ,you can't really compare cameras and cars.

Since you bring it up, the cost of a car includes insurance, oil changes and maintenence and repairs, and a large fortune in gas for the length of time you keep the car.

Your comparing one thing that you never stop paying for with something that is essentially a one time cash outlay unless somebody drives over the Toyo with their Toyota.

Fortunes are blown on fast women and slow horses, drugs, clothes, jewelry, so in the scheme of things, a camera isn't such a bad deal.

[giancatarina]

"Since you bring it up, the cost of a car includes insurance, oil changes and ma intenence and repairs, and a large fortune in gas for the length of time you keep the car. " what about films, process, prints... While i find LF quite expensive, at the same time, i think they are courageous t o keeping producing new stuff for a small market like it, with so much second hand stuff available ! Here in france there is less people using LF each day ( process and film too exp ensive compare to 6x7 or digital), by the way how much does it cost for a 4x5 slide film + processing ? Here, to shoot 4x5 cost 5 time more than 6x7, and even more for color negs and contact print !

[Jonathan Brewer]

You gotta be kidding me, what about 'em? You're talking about two entirely different things. When was the last time you needed an oil change for your camera, or a wheel alignment?

You spend money on what a camera produces but you don't spend a fortune just to keep it running.

It expensive to eat, that doesn't have anything to do with a car either. I've had to shell out a few bucks for some of my gear, so I don't want to hear how expensive it is, you'll find a way to deal with it or you won't.

If you don't have $4625.00 for a 1995 Toyota Corolla it might as well be a million, but there are folks in and out of photography riding around on motorcycles that cost more than that.

You can't order from Robert White from France? Well I guess you do have problems.

[Roger Marques]

Matthew, You have a point here; your comparision is completely sound. Yesterday I got a new reflex viewer for my Arca F, it is a simple plied metal sheet with a mirro r and two cheap plastic lenses. Cost was a bit more than my brand new dishwasher. The reasons are the very low production volume and, mainly, outrageously high margins, often in the 600%-900% range.

[Michael Kadillak]

Life can be expensive in every aspect if you really think about it, but at the same time it does not have to be. Large format is the same. You CAN find cameras and lenses that are reasonably priced and buy your own chemistry ( including E6) and process it yourself or you can dream about the equipment that is at the upper end and complain about why you cannot own it. A new Lexus and a used Toyota will accomplish its objective in transporting you from point A to point B, you just need to determine if it fits into your budget. Similarly, a Casio will tell you the time as well as a Rolex. Why should large format be any different?

In the brave new world an economy of consumerism based upon free choice is the dominant criteria. Enterprising individuals and corporations develop products and compete for the consumer dollar with the expectation that they will illicit sufficient buy decisions from the individual buyers in the markets to recover their costs plus a satisfactory return on investment. If the high end products in every market does not continue to enjoy robust sales, it will suffer the wrath of the economy and fade away. Competition at its finest.

Bottom line - There has never been a better time to acquire high quality large format equipment at manageable prices. With people continuing to move to digital, there are many deals to be had.

Don't get discouraged. The quality of your photographs is not proportional to the cost of the camera. Large format is a fantastic way to express yourself photographically. Keep your head down and stay on the trail. You will not regret your decision.

Good Luck.

[Nigel Turner]

"Fortunes are blown on fast women and slow horses, drugs, clothes, jewelry, so in the scheme of things, a camera isn't such a bad deal."

Are you refering to yourself Jonathan, or the members of this board in general? I wish I had a fortune to blow period :o)

[Kevin Kemner]

Matthew,

In short, the answer to your question is...

Mamiya America Corporation has an effective monopoly in North America and can charge what it pleases. Robert White sells for less but, he can't sell Toyo to North America as it will be confiscated.

[Dave Schneidr]

There is nothing in the market that has risen in price faster than college tuition. Yet Congress seems to think hearings to discover why the price of gasoline went up a few cents serves the public interest.

For the most part things cost what they do because the market is willing to pay a price and the seller will charge as much as he can to the point that sales diminish due to competition or markets disappearing. Large format equipment is not too expensive as long as it sells at that price.

If you think large format equipment is expensive you ought to think about how much some people charge for photographs. You can't tell me that $300 for a 11x14 print is reasonable, that's outlandish when the sheet of paper costs 2 bucks, throw in the film, chemicals and the like and you're still under 10 bucks. All this for a photo taken by some no name photographer with a web site. Well, I guess that's not too much if people are willing to buy those photos at that price. It is all market driven in a free market system.

[Geoffrey Swenson]

?You can't tell me that $300 for a 11x14 print is reasonable, that's outlandish when the sheet of paper costs 2 bucks, throw in the film, chemicals and the like and you're still under 10 bucks?

Don?t forget the enormous investment and hard work of getting just one image worthy of printing. If you do keep that in mind, I don?t think even $600.00 is too much for an 11x14 print. How much do you sell your photos? Perhaps $15.00? That is hell of a deal!

[Nigel Turner]

A couple of points that have been posted here.

The first is to Kevin with regards Robert White. Robert White does sell Toyo's to people in the US, and they haven't had then confiscated, at least the folks that I know who have purchased them. Who would have the legal right to confiscate the camera anyway?

My second point is to Geoffrey. I personally feel that photography fits into the 'visual art' side of things. All things arty are only worth as much as the buyer is willing to pay. I sell 30x40 prints for up to $1,500. Are they worth that much...? They are to the folks that have bought them but thats a personal decision on their part.

[Doug Paramore]

Matthew: People equate price with value, plain and simple, and it seems even more so with cameras and lenses. Plus the fact that LF gear is a limited market item seems to keep prices up. If the profit margin is so great, why have so many companies making gone out of business? There are few companies still around making LF gear that were popular when I got into photography. There was a time when any photographer worth his salt wanted a Speed Graphic. Where is Graflex now? How about B&J, Watson, Kodak's LF product line, Deardorf, Agfa, Ansco cameras, etc. All gone. Incidentally, in the 1940's a fully equipped Speed Graphic was $200 or more. That at a time when a dozen 8x10 prints of the same subject from even well known commercial photographers could be had for $10-15. We used to get $7 for a finished 8x10 portrait. I remember the first portrait order we got that went over $180, and we were dancing in the streets. The point is, it took a lot of the photographer's income to buy that Speed Graphic. Even Ol' Ansel was selling prints for $25 back then. So really, things haven't gone up as much as it might seem.

Regards,

[tim atherton]

"Mamiya America Corporation has an effective monopoly in North America and can charge what it pleases. Robert White sells for less but, he can't sell Toyo to North America as it will be confiscated."

What baloney!

[william nagel]

"Fortunes are blown on fast women and slow horses, drugs, clothes, jewelry, so in the scheme of things, a camera isn't such a bad deal."

Nigel, I think Jonathan was referring to me.

[Jonathan Brewer]

Niguel Turner....There you go again putting words into peoples mouths. My reference to fast women and slow horses and drugs and so forth was to anybody who does it and no one in particular, and the last part of my aside was a veiled compliment to anybody who want to shell out the bucks for a camera in contrast, and I beleive that is evident to anyone who has the ability to do more than half-ass read a thread.

You are the one trying to connect it with me and to the other folks on this forum. Incidently, I've got a good wife, don't do drugs, but I do have cameras, which would show anybody but the likes of you where I'm at.

[Nigel Turner]

Jonathan, I didn't put words into anyone's mouth, it was your reference. I was being lighthearted with you. It seems it went over your head. Shame.

[Jonathan Brewer]

I made no references to myself, or to the forum in my remark, that was your veiled suggestion, in the form of a question. Coming from you, I doubt it was a joke, but if it was, ha,ha,ha.

[Jonathan Brewer]

'I sell 30x40 prints for up to $1,500. Are they worth that much...?', NOW THATS FUNNY!

[Bob Robinson]

Next time you go to your local camera store Jonathan see if they will sell you a bag of humor. You need it big time. Talk about sour grapes.

[Andre Noble]

Nigel, I second the need for a fast woman!

[Nigel Turner]

Andre,

I already have a fast woman! So my second choice would be a fast horse, a sprinter... say 6 furlongs, but without the vet and training fees. Or a rough coated Jack Russell, bad to the bone, but British!

[Jonathan Brewer]

What are you talking about Bob? I was joking too! Niguel Turner keeps me in 'stitches', if his lips are moving, I'm laughing.

The best laughs are half true and half joke. I joke with Niguel with a great deal of sincerity which I know Niguel appreciates.

Now if Niguel Turner had asked me what I was doing before I got married, then I would have really been pissed(this last sentence is half truth and half joke Bob!).

[Jonathan Brewer]

Bob....Niguel Turner gets $1500.00 for a 30x40, do you think he questions the worth of the print later with a straight face? You damn right I think it's funny and probably so does he.

[Jonathan Brewer]

Bob...Niguel Turner gets $1500.00 for a 30x40, do you think he questions the worth of the print later with a straight face? You damn right I think it's funny and probably so does he.

[Andre Noble]

There was a regular contributor by the name of "Trib" a while back. He's the last guy who really knew how to pull off humour in this medium.

[Mike Mahoney]

Matthews' original question is a valid one. Somewhere in the LF manufacture and supply chain there has to be someone laughing all the way to the bank.

Really - take a hard look at an Arca Swiss or Toyo monorail and ask yourself if the materials and manufacturing justify the cost. Basic alloys, simple casting, and one hundred year old technology.

Better yet, how about those accessories ??

[Jonathan Brewer]

Thank God for Robert White and Mr Cad and a world market, which is going to drive prices down along with the dealers themselves who sell new/near new equipment on e-bay.

Michael makes the best point, whatever your budget, you'll find equipment for that amount of money. B&H has always treated me in a decent manner, Robert White treats me like a valued human being and will spare no effort to make me happy and charges less.

I don't have all the goodies and toys I'd like to have, but I'm fortunate to have bottom line what I need to do what I'd like to do. I do think the prices here for camera gear are downright stubborness considering the onslaught of digital. The dealers even undercut their own prices on e-bay!

One thing about 35mm/MF/LF gear, what other goods being produced today are capable of lasting a lifetime? Not much.

[Paulo K. Ogino A.]

Hi guys!, I'm writing a little bit late, but anyway... I have a Sinar F+ and it was US$600, yaw free, sturdy, cheap, with lenses and accesories, I would spend US$1500, is too expensive?

By the way, I live in Chile, SouthAmerica... (yes we do large format here)

Buy a Honda Prelude... is worth the money!!!

Bye

[Dave Schneidr]

My point in the earlier post was that every price is market driven. The claim that the cost of materials going into a large format camera does not justify the cost is as ludicrous as my tongue in cheek assertion that a print could not be worth $300 based on the cost of the paper and chemicals. If an Arca-Swiss did not sell for $3000 they would lower the price to increase sales volume. If lowering the price increased sales volume significantly enough that the investment made in engineering, manufacturing, etc. was still paying off at a reasonable rate they would do so. Complaining that it costs too much is sort of ridiculous, don't buy it then.