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Jacques-Mtl
3-Mar-2010, 09:01
Can someone tell me how to use the Zone system with colour film and colour slide. I know that colour slide has a limited range of 5 zones and colour film has a little more range. I intend to shoot architecture and probably have the negatives scan. Which one would you recommend me? At what ISO?

Where should I place my spot meter reading? For example a yellow colour in direct light, yellow in shadow?
Thank you
Jacques

Joanna Carter
3-Mar-2010, 09:33
Actually, the range on slide film varies, from as little as 3-3.5 stops for Velvia 50 to around 6 stops for Astia 100F.

The trick is get to know what the range of your chosen film is and also how much of that range is under and over the "zone 5" exposure for a given subject.

e.g.
For Velvia 100 - 4 stops range - -2 to +2
1. Measure the reading for the darkest shadow that you want to see detail (Zone 3)
2. Reduce this exposure by 2 stops to give you a corrected "zone 5" exposure for the whole image.
3. meter around the subject to determine if any part of the image is more than 2 stops over the "zone 5" reading - if it is, then decide whether you can use a grad filter (for something like a sky), or whether you are going to have to wait for the light to change.

Of course, you can't easily over or under develop E6 film like you can B&W, so you usually end up learning how and when to shoot for the limited range of these films.

For determining the range of a film, it is cheaper and easier to buy a roll of 120 film of the same emulsion and create your own film test:

1. Obtain a black towel or other textured pure black object.
2. Obtain a white towel or other textured pure white object.
3. Ensure that the lighting is not going to change for an hour or so.
4. Determine the zone 5 reading for the given lighting, using a gray card.
5. Determine the zone 5 reading for the black towel
6. Determine the zone 5 reading for the white towel
5. Take a series of shots in 1/2 stop steps from the black reading to the white reading.
7. Check the results and find the shots in which the black towel starts to show detail - this is your minimum exposure level.
8. Check the results and find the shots in which the white towel starts to show detail - this is your maximum exposure level.
9. Compare the minimum and maximum exposures to the gray exposure and you will have the correct minimum and maximum "zones" to use for all future shooting on that emulsion.

ic-racer
3-Mar-2010, 09:36
When getting the EI for transparence film, many use 0.2 instead of 0.1 log d. Also, remember that this will fall 4 or 5 stops ABOVE zone V. So you are essentially going to base the exposure off the highlight areas.

Personally I think there are too many variables to control. For example, the light source used for any sensitometric testing of the film's curve and tonal range will need to be exactly the same as your subject.

Personally I'd keep it simple and not think twice about bracketing exposure around an average reading, but this is one of those threads that could easily go on for multiple pages... :)

Joanna Carter
3-Mar-2010, 09:40
When getting the EI for transparence film, many use 0.2 instead of 0.1 log d. Also, remember that this will fall 4 or 5 stops ABOVE zone V. So you are essentially going to base the exposure off the highlight areas.
?????????? The rule for exposing transparency is usually expose for the shadows and filter the highlights where possible.


Personally I'd keep it simple and not think twice about bracketing exposure around an average reading
I have never needed to bracket to expose transparency film. After determining the range of a film using the black and white towel exposure tests, i can guarantee the right exposre every time, with only one shot. Saves a whole load of film and expense at the lab.

Chris Strobel
3-Mar-2010, 09:41
Wouldn't you just meter for where you absolutely don't want blown highs and place that on Zone VII e.g. snow, and let the shadows fall where they may?I have two boxes of 8x10 chrome in the freezer, but have never shot color, so I'm interested in this as well.

Jacques-Mtl
3-Mar-2010, 10:53
Actually, the range on slide film varies, from as little as 3-3.5 stops for Velvia 50 to around 6 stops for Astia 100F.

The trick is get to know what the range of your chosen film is and also how much of that range is under and over the "zone 5" exposure for a given subject.

e.g.
For Velvia 100 - 4 stops range - -2 to +2
1. Measure the reading for the darkest shadow that you want to see detail (Zone 3)
2. Reduce this exposure by 2 stops to give you a corrected "zone 5" exposure for the whole image.
3. meter around the subject to determine if any part of the image is more than 2 stops over the "zone 5" reading - if it is, then decide whether you can use a grad filter (for something like a sky), or whether you are going to have to wait for the light to change.

Of course, you can't easily over or under develop E6 film like you can B&W, so you usually end up learning how and when to shoot for the limited range of these films.

For determining the range of a film, it is cheaper and easier to buy a roll of 120 film of the same emulsion and create your own film test:

1. Obtain a black towel or other textured pure black object.
2. Obtain a white towel or other textured pure white object.
3. Ensure that the lighting is not going to change for an hour or so.
4. Determine the zone 5 reading for the given lighting, using a gray card.
5. Determine the zone 5 reading for the black towel
6. Determine the zone 5 reading for the white towel
5. Take a series of shots in 1/2 stop steps from the black reading to the white reading.
7. Check the results and find the shots in which the black towel starts to show detail - this is your minimum exposure level.
8. Check the results and find the shots in which the white towel starts to show detail - this is your maximum exposure level.
9. Compare the minimum and maximum exposures to the gray exposure and you will have the correct minimum and maximum "zones" to use for all future shooting on that emulsion.

Thank you Joanna, I will try this.

Joanna Carter
3-Mar-2010, 11:06
Wouldn't you just meter for where you absolutely don't want blown highs and place that on Zone VII e.g. snow, and let the shadows fall where they may?I have two boxes of 8x10 chrome in the freezer, but have never shot color, so I'm interested in this as well.
That depends on the rendering intent you want for the image. If shadow detail is important, then you must regard the possibility of blocked detail and expose for the shadows. It is easier to apply a grad filter to the highlights than it is to try and print out blocked shadows.

Lenny Eiger
3-Mar-2010, 11:12
Of course, you can't easily over or under develop E6 film like you can B&W, so you usually end up learning how and when to shoot for the limited range of these films.

I'm a b&w shooter, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I remember when I was 9 developing E6 for my dad in reels in his darkroom (early '60's). When did it become "nearly impossible" to do this without super-hi-tech temp controls?

When I went to school, my first Photo 101 was taught be a woman who watered down the 2nd developer and achieved a very soft, beautiful palette. With my apologies to those who love this stuff - I always hated the kodak palette, the worst was the garish cibachrome - who ever thought of such colors? Yuck! This person's beautiful color prints were a breath of fresh air.

Did they do something to the film or chemistry to make this kind of experimentation impossible?

Just curious....

Lenny

Joanna Carter
3-Mar-2010, 11:24
When did it become "nearly impossible" to do this without super-hi-tech temp controls?
Lenny, I never said "nearly impossible" and I certainly never even whispered anything about "super-hi-tech temp controls" - please don't misquote me. I merely stated that it was not easily done; at least, not with any degree of certainty of the outcome.

Lenny Eiger
3-Mar-2010, 11:31
Lenny, I never said "nearly impossible" and I certainly never even whispered anything about "super-hi-tech temp controls" - please don't misquote me. I merely stated that it was not easily done; at least, not with any degree of certainty of the outcome.

Joanna, don't take this personally. I wasn't trying to suggest you single-handedly had ended all creativity. You simply expressed something that I have heard everywhere, that I question. (Or am curious about.) It really had nothing to do with you at all....

Lenny

JRFrench
3-Mar-2010, 13:33
Joanna, don't take this personally. I wasn't trying to suggest you single-handedly had ended all creativity. You simply expressed something that I have heard everywhere, that I question. (Or am curious about.) It really had nothing to do with you at all....

Lenny

I believe Joanna was referring to pushing and pulling of slide film, and that she is saying that it is merely less predictable, and controllable than doing the same to BnW film (presumably due to color casts and things). This makes it a little more difficult to apply the Zone system in totality.

On the other hand, I do hear of people pushing and pulling slide films, so it must be of use. Presumably some colour correction filters may be necessary at the time of taking to ensure accurate colour reproduction, if that is your ultimate goal.

That modification to make the soft pastel colours sounds very interesting Lenny.

Lenny Eiger
3-Mar-2010, 14:14
I believe Joanna was referring to pushing and pulling of slide film, and that she is saying that it is merely less predictable, and controllable than doing the same to BnW film (presumably due to color casts and things). This makes it a little more difficult to apply the Zone system in totality.

I'm sorry I quoted Joanna's sentence at all. I was simply referring to her statement as a general idea, no attack of any kind intended- she needs no defense from me. As to the film, it may be less predictable, and I wonder if that is a truth or myth perpetrated by some manufacturer. I don't know the answer, and I was asking...


On the other hand, I do hear of people pushing and pulling slide films, so it must be of use. Presumably some colour correction filters may be necessary at the time of taking to ensure accurate colour reproduction, if that is your ultimate goal.
That modification to make the soft pastel colours sounds very interesting Lenny.

What I saw was pretty nice. It was different from simple adjustment of time, however. I would agree that the color may not be as accurate. I was just wondering if anyone was trying something like this.

Lenny

Chris Strobel
3-Mar-2010, 15:00
That depends on the rendering intent you want for the image. If shadow detail is important, then you must regard the possibility of blocked detail and expose for the shadows. It is easier to apply a grad filter to the highlights than it is to try and print out blocked shadows.

So if one is going to buy a grad ND filter, what is a good stop range to start with?

Joanna Carter
3-Mar-2010, 16:46
So if one is going to buy a grad ND filter, what is a good stop range to start with?
ND grad filters don't have a range, each filter is for a fixed value. The average kit of grad filters can consist of 0,3 (1 stop) 0,6 (2 stops) and 0,9 (3 stops) of each of hard and soft grads.

Drew Wiley
3-Mar-2010, 16:59
Most modern chrome films can be pushed a little but not realistically pulled. As they got finer-grained it seems the deveopment options became stricter. An exception is
Astia. The effect of pushing and pulling is completely different than what one achieves
with the Zone System, where you can change the contrast of the entire film curve. In
fact, I think the Zone System concept is largely worthless with color film. Back in the
day, AA attempted to force the foot into this unrealistic shoe size, during his brief
tenure with color, but I believe it's a waste of energy trying. The nice thing about
chromes is that they're relatively unforgiving and teach you to exposure correctly and
make the most of the film curve. Balancing them to print contrast per se often requires
either contrast masking or Photoshop correction, depending. Color negs are more forgiving, but still behave quite differently from black-and-white film.

Chris Strobel
3-Mar-2010, 17:36
ND grad filters don't have a range, each filter is for a fixed value. The average kit of grad filters can consist of 0,3 (1 stop) 0,6 (2 stops) and 0,9 (3 stops) of each of hard and soft grads.

Yes I know how they work and what they are.I use only the best glass on my 8x10, and I'm not sure I want to, or if I even need to place ND filters over my lens.Noted landscape photographer Christopher Burkett http://www.christopherburkett.com shoots 8x10 chromes, and has never used any kind of filter ever over his lens, but instead uses contrast mask to control density in the print.I have his book Intimations of Paradise, and one of his 30x40 Ciba prints, and there is quite long sbr in many of the prints, which I assume is from the contrast mask.

Jack Dykinga, another artist I respect, uses filters, and also will bracket shots on chrome in 1/3rd stops when its an important shot.I have his 'shooting landscapes' book, but he doesn't go into great detail on metering, though I know he does use a spot meter, and says he often will meter off green foliage for five percent gray.

This whole color film thing is confusing to me.I've been a zone system practitioner for decades, but with color printing now where its at, and a Lightjet 5000 10 min. from me, I'm wanting to give it a try.8x10 chromes are EXPENSIVE, and I've got twenty sheets of it in the freezer, and a week in Yosemite coming up.Is there an idiots guide to shooting chrome in Yosemite by any chance :D

Drew Wiley
3-Mar-2010, 18:59
Think of chrome film as being rated at exactly box speed, and always developed
normal. Don't try to push or pull till you are very familiar with a specific film. First take a measurement which you want to equate to your 18% gray card (Zone V, which in this case stays constant). There will be plenty of middle gray rocks in Yosemite, and a number of evergreen tones which are similar or slightly under (zone IV). Then measure what you intend as your nonspecular highlights, which should fall no more than two stops higher (Zone VII). If you want significant color saturation in them, they should be no more than one stop above (Zone VI). In bright sunlight, don't expect much in your shadows. Ordinarily,a chrome film will saturate best in what you one consider an N+1 environment (lower than normal contrast range). I hope you have a spotmeter. If it was me, I'd travel down the Merced canyon from Yosemite into the foothill country, where the wildflowers coming up are likely to make Yosemite itself blush with envy. I just put eight new 8x10 color shots on the light box from a recent weekend on backroads below Mariposa. This is THE time of
year, at least if you can dodge the frequent rain showers. Last year the poppies were insane in early April, but right now plenty of other flowers are coming up against the intense green hills.

Stephen Benskin
4-Mar-2010, 06:20
Film speeds are determined from the area that is critical in exposure for a particular film type. Black and white and color negative film , it is the shadows. Reversal films, it is the mid-point. As for the highlights and shadows, it depends on how the image is to be viewed as does the scene luminance range it reproduces.

Transparencies are designed to be view projected in a darkened room. In order for it to look correct, the contrast and density range needs to be higher than when viewing on a light table. The preferred density range for a transparency viewed in a darkened room is 3.0 with an average gradient of 1.37, whereas on viewed on a light table has a density range of 2.4 with an average gradient of 1.12.

An interesting experiment about the surrounding brightness on the perceived values of the transparency is to place the transparency on a light table and then place a mask around the image blocking the surrounding light from the light table. The transparency will appear to loss contrast.

According to Jack Holm, "a mismatch exists between typical reversal film gammas of approximately 1.6 and the preferred value for transparencies to be viewed on a light table. This mismatch occurs because transparency films are designed for projection in a darkened room. A common consequence of this mismatch is the intentional use of scene ranges of less than 160:1 (average scene) for transparencies intended for light table viewing or magazine reproduction. A scene range of approximately 32:1 will produce an appropriate density range for light table viewing, and a scene range of approximately 16:1 will produce an appropriate density range for reflection hardcopy. These lower scene ranges require somewhat more exposure in order to keep the highlights at the preferred density levels."