Darlot

[ederphoto]

How much is a Darlot for an 8x10 going for these days ?

[CCHarrison]

Petzval Type ? Landscape type ? Depends on the lens type..

Dan

[Gene McCluney]

Yes, "Darlot" refers to a manufacturer of lenses that made many different types. The value of a given lens has to do with its design and rarity.

[ederphoto]

It is a portrait petzval with waterhouse stops and stops included .

[CCHarrison]

Nice clean Darlot Petzvals typically go for $ 250 to $450 on ebay.... but sometimes they sell for crazy money like the one below at $ 898.... Petzvals like this vary greatly in price depending on the auction, the seller and the condition....

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-LARGE-DARLOT-PETZVAL-PORTRAIT-ANTIQUE-BRASS-LENS_W0QQitemZ120527004858QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item1c0ff824ba

Dan

[Jim Galli]

Nice clean Darlot Petzvals typically go for $ 250 to $450 on ebay.... but sometimes they sell for crazy money like the one below at $ 898.... Petzvals like this vary greatly in price depending on the auction, the seller and the condition....

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-LARGE-DARLOT-PETZVAL-PORTRAIT-ANTIQUE-BRASS-LENS_W0QQitemZ120527004858QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item1c0ff824ba

Dan

That one was a 10" projector lens that will only cover 5X7. No aperture or waterhouse stops. Fasten your seat belt. $450 ones that cover 8X10 are getting pretty unusual.

[CCHarrison]

I agree Jim, but it was also being sold by Geoff Berliner who typically gets a lot more from his auctions than the average bear... I think the fact "Darlot" was written on the element edge added to the "mystique" and the price....

I guess my head is still stuck in the days where Petzvals would sell for about $ 100 and Darlots were thought of as "common." Heck, when I started collecting 20 years ago, I passed up on a Holmes Booth Haydens Petzval that covered 11x14, because I thought $ 125 was too pricey..... Petzval inflation has been crazy....and you have been part of that inflation ;)

Dan

[Jim Fitzgerald]

That one was a 10" projector lens that will only cover 5X7. No aperture or waterhouse stops. Fasten your seat belt. $450 ones that cover 8X10 are getting pretty unusual.

Jim, remember the one I got off of flea bay for $90.00! You remember the one with the big glob of goo covering most of the rear element. Cleaned up real nice and covers my 11x14. Oh, it has an iris also. I do need to use it more though. I think I will. BTW the serial number is # 36366 Darlot Optician Paris, BF&Co. Look to be about a 14" or 15". If anyone has more info that would be great. Thanks.

Jim

[goamules]

One problem with Darlots is there aren't good records on them. Though Jamin was in business going pretty far back into the early wetplate period, a lot of unscrupulous sellers act like an uncut Darlot could be an early daguerreotype period Jamin/Darlot. Most regularly configured petzvals I've seen, including the above, are not, but are like Jim says; 1890s magic lantern lenses.

Yes, the Cone Centralizer is a valuable, early Darlot. And the larger ones, whether optical or projector lens, are more useful and valuable. But when I can buy a Ross (who preceded Dallmeyer) or a Voigtlander (who first made Petzval's design) from no kidding the 1860s for $250, but can't get a Darlot projector lens from the 1890s for that, something's wrong.

[goamules]

When I say there are no records, I mean the serial number-to-date lists. Most of the magic lantern and some of the camera lenses don't even have serial numbers. So one man's 1899 projector lens becomes another man's "ca. 1860s daguerreotype or early wetplate lens". It's false, but there is no easy way to prove it, because there are no numbers on these. However, checking the way the lens is manufactured, the knurling patterns, the size, the AD symbol, can give you guidance if you are versed.

I've even seen several magic lantern Darlots with "Jamin" written on the glass, which I suspect was just a habit some workers continued for years after Darlot took over the Jamin line. One thing to watch for is Jamin written on the brass, along with street addresses. These are the early ones. The recent $900 specials aren't those, buyers are getting burned.

[ederphoto]

Here is the lens after a bit of cleaning :

[Jim Galli]

Woo Hoo! That's a beauty.

[CCHarrison]

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... I would have left the original finish and patina. Most lenses lose value from cleaning like this, but Petzvals less so...

Lets see some shots !

Thanks,
Dan

[ederphoto]

I thought about leaving the original finish but it was bad .And off course with brass,that patina will be back in less than 3 years depending on how and where the lens is stored .Most antiques are better kept as found,not the case with brass,silver and gold.
I cleaned the glass last night and it looks like new on both sides ,like from an assembling line .Today a final polish and it will be ready for some portraits .:cool:

[CCHarrison]

I would still have left the original finish - unless it was just awful.... The patina will never be the same as the original lacquer covering the brass is (likely) gone.....

Its like nails on a chalk board to me when old brass is "scrubbed" new or Brasso has been applied....

But different strokes for different folks....enjoy your lens

Dan

[Jack Dahlgren]

I thought about leaving the original finish but it was bad .And off course with brass,that patina will be back in less than 3 years depending on how and where the lens is stored .Most antiques are better kept as found,not the case with brass,silver and gold.
I cleaned the glass last night and it looks like new on both sides ,like from an assembling line .Today a final polish and it will be ready for some portraits .:cool:

You can re-lacquer it with musician's lacquer if you want to keep it bright.

[goamules]

I hear you Dan, but I've noticed the value goes UP when an antique lens is bright and shiny. Sometimes it's the original brightwork and varnish on some of the top selling lenses, but not usually. Many of my good deals were so because they were mottled, splotchy brass.

Not to say I advocate polishing. My general rule is if the varnish is more than half gone, or if it was polished entirely off at least once in the past, I consider it. If it's a rare lens, no.

I also kind of equate brass to sterling silver. You don't see anyone letting a patina build up on a 1780s tea service.

[CCHarrison]

I've noticed the value goes UP when an antique lens is bright and shiny. .

Yes, but usually the buyer is a newbie or a user, not a collector. Not that there is anything wrong with a "user" or a "newbie," but those of us who call themselves "collectors" usually shudder when a "brassie" is stripped naked :eek:

Best,
Dan

[ederphoto]

Tea service and Darlot :rolleyes: Sounds perfect ! Maybe we should get together for some tea and talk about lenses !

[Joshua Dunn]

Goamules,

I responded to the “Darlot Cleaning Up” post, I’ll ask both questions here so you don’t have to respond twice. How do you know if a Darlot is designed for camera use? Is it just the fact that it takes water house stops? Additionally, my lens is engraved “Darlot Paris” on one side and “B.F. & Co.” on the other. The focal length is about 6”. Any idea what that means as to the manufacture of my lens?

I just want to know because I’m curious. I have no plans to sell the lens and am on a little brass lens kick right now. I just bought another older Bausch & Lomb Zeiss Protar (about 3 ½ to 4 inch focal length) and should have it mounted on a lens board next week.

[Mark Sawyer]

I cleaned the glass last night and it looks like new on both sides, like from an assembling line...

You've ruined the value of the lens by removing that historic dirt from the glass!!! :D

[ederphoto]

Hahahahahaha ! You got me going there for a second !

[ederphoto]

Joshua , can you imagine a nikon,canon or any modern lens without f stops ? F stops control the depth of field and amount of light hitting the film also helping avoid some aberration .Photographic lenses have f stops projector lenses don't ,but there some very few exceptions .
Your lens was made by Darlot in Paris and imported into the United States by B.F. & Co .
Darlot also made projector lenses .
If i'm wrong someone please correct me .

[Joshua Dunn]

Goamules,

I understand the difference of not having an iris to stop down with; you mentioned that elderphoto’s Darlot was made for camera use. I was wondering if the only way you could tell that was the slot for water house stops. That’s all. But thank you for answering the part about B.F. & Co. on the lens.

[ederphoto]

I'd say that in 98% of the cases waterhouse stops is the give way of the difference between a projection lens and camera lens .In my personal opinion F/stops are just important to the lens as the lens elements themselves unless off course someone only shoots wide open 100% of the time with a very limited depth of field that being the case forget about landscape or pictorialism style photography, these lenses work well for portrait ,close ups and macro work depending on the focal length of the lens .I can even say that the stops may be even more import than the lens itself, take pin hole photography for example ,no glass,just an f/stop ! But i'm not an expert and please don't forget that i mention that there are exceptions .

[goamules]

Hi, I'll try to answer. I've noticed the lenses made for cameras are marked better. In other words, they will have:

Darlot, Opticien
Paris
AD
234567

Instead of; Darlot, Paris. The typeface or engraving font changes over the years, but I see most with "Optician" are in a more fluid style than the (later) ML lenses. Do later camera lenses use the same font as the MLs of the period? We have to study that. And it's difficult because of the aforementioned no serial-to-date list.

As said above, having a slot for stops is a pretty good indicator, especially if they are not cut (later) over the basic markings. Import marked by BF French is a good indicator, as I'm sure he mostly imported lenses for cameras, though I think I've seen the period ads also show they sold Darlot projector lenses. I don't recall ever seeing a ML Darlot with BF French on it. But there could be.

The much older Jamin Darlots might not have a waterhouse stop, but they will have several lines engraved, such as:

Jamin & Darlot, Btes.
Rue Chapon 14 Paris

or

Mon. Jamin.Darlot Sr. Bte.
Rue Chapon 14 Paris

Longer hoods seems to indicate camera use, longer than the standard (around 1") you see on ML lenses. Think about it, the projectors don't care about flare from the sun, so a shorter hood if fine. I need to start measuring some hoods to see if this assumption is correct, but Ederphoto's hood is obviously longer than what is on most ML lenses. I need to check my shorter ones.

Those are some differentiation parameters for you to start thinking about.


Garrett

[Richard K.]

In my personal opinion F/stops are just important to the lens as the lens elements themselves unless off course someone only shoots wide open 100% of the time with a very limited depth of field ......may be even more import than the lens itself, .

I have a few lenses without their Waterhouse stops, or in one case only one WH stop. I simply overlayed an opaque cover on the brass stop with an aperture made to give me f/45. Wide open to focus and f/45 are enough for most landscape photography if you can control the time. You don't really need a full set of stops, although it WOULD be nice! :)

[Jim Galli]

I'd say that in 98% of the cases waterhouse stops is the give way of the difference between a projection lens and camera lens .In my personal opinion F/stops are just important to the lens as the lens elements themselves unless off course someone only shoots wide open 100% of the time with a very limited depth of field that being the case forget about landscape or pictorialism style photography, these lenses work well for portrait ,close ups and macro work depending on the focal length of the lens .I can even say that the stops may be even more import than the lens itself, take pin hole photography for example ,no glass,just an f/stop ! But i'm not an expert and please don't forget that i mention that there are exceptions .

I would respectfully dis-agree. If you've previsualized a certain look for a picture, and you've chosen a petzval lens to accomplish the task, chances are that you will be shooting wide open. People pay silly $$ for petzval's because of the lovely effect of pin sharp center and beautiful bokeh very quickly as you move away from center. If that isn't THE look you're after, you would have grabbed a modern anastigmat in the first place. The only time I use a stop with a Petzval is in ULF where the giant lenses have such shallow depth of field that you cannot get a decent zone of sharpness from the bridge of the nose to the eyes. So, my point is that most folks that want to experiment with a petzval lens on 4X5 or 5X7 probably won't pick up a stop. The characteristic that made you choose the tool will disappear as you stop it down, which seems pointless at least to me.

[ederphoto]

Richard ,
You are right ," based on the look you choose " you don't need a full set of stops.And the way you manufactured your stop works beautifully . I have a projector lens here ,just the front glass ,that i attached to a can of dry milk that i removed the bottom , i made holes of different sizes to match the required f stop for the focal length of the lens with lids of extra dry milk cans .I paid $6.00 for the glass at a photo show .When i saw the image in the ground glass i was amazed .Before paying someone to build a barrel ,you have to find out if the set up will work .I still have a few things to do to this lens before i'm done and as soon as i finish i'll post some pics .

[ederphoto]

Jim ,
Your presence and your opinion are always welcomed and you are a professor when it comes to lens discussion based on your vast experience in photography and your experience and possession of some of the most desirable lenses of our life time . But even you will agree that a set of stops will give different levels of diffusion to a lens .Where F/4 may be too much for one subject , F/5.6 or F/8 may be the golden ticket .For example , take the projector lens i have and mention above ,wide open the image looks more like a painting ( lots of aberration ) but stopped down to F/ 8 it is a dream come true , and the more i stop down, the more detail i gain as the diffusion is reduced but not eliminated .I am confident to say that in this particular case every single stop is precious for the different look they give me based on subject matter (Flowers,fruits,wine and bread ,an old car ,dead tree in the water and so on...).and the condition they allow me to shoot, indoors or outdoors and on a sunny day at F/16 ISO when it is required .
I can use this lens wide open ,but i only have to gain by adding stops .
If i showed you a picture of this lens as it is ,you would be laughing for the rest of the life !

[goamules]

... Import marked by BF French is a good indicator [a lens was made for camera use]... I don't recall ever seeing a ML Darlot with BF French on it...

Disregard last...I just saw a magic lantern lens with B.F. and Co.

Garrett

[GSX4]

BF French and co. was an importer of Darlot lenses (both Magic Lantern, and camera) to the US.

[Mark Sawyer]

There were a number of importers of Darlot lenses who added their names. I have a Kleine Optical lens that's also engraved as a Darlot.

[goamules]

Ah, yes. But I was addressing the question; how do you know if a Darlot was made for a magic lantern or for a camera? I'd made the misassumption that BF wouldn't mark magic lantern lenses. But I found that they did....