HC110 or Pyrocat HD for FP4 [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Kevin Klazek

6-Feb-2010, 07:52

phil sweeney

6-Feb-2010, 08:26

You probably can use the film at EI 100 with pyrocat - though your tests will prove the best speed. I use TF3 for fix.

Ken Lee

6-Feb-2010, 08:40

Try some test images first.

Read this article (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html) to get some perspective. You'll note that Sandy King has tested with FP4+ quite a bit, and regards it highly among films of that speed range. The Ilford films give less of a "fog" or background stain, and respond in a rather linear manner to changes in development time.

As to SemiStand and other methods of compensation for scenes of high contrast, have a look at this page, which discusses the use of Divided Pyrocat (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=52913). It's the bees knees, as they say. Compared to other tedious methods, it's laughably simple, and lets you shoot in subject brightness ranges that would ordinarily send you home with your tail between your legs - or even worse - reaching for a digital camera to make a series of HDR overlays :)

I've been shooting with FP4+ lately, by accidentally ordering the wrong film (instead of HP5+) in 5x7. As predicted, it has worked very nicely with Pyrocat HD, and I am thinking of using it for my standard film. While I have always shot all films at half the recommended film speed, I am finding that this film/developer combination does well at around ISO 75 or maybe even 100 , as Phil has articulated. Surprise for me, "I told you so" for Professor King.

One issue that I have found, which is sometimes discussed but not mentioned in any official literature, is how to remove the slight magenta cast, which the developer gives to the film. After fix and brief rinse, about 10 minutes in Hypo Clear bath will remove it. You can make your own Hypo Clear or "Washing Aid' by mixing a 1% solution of Sodium Sulfite, which is a very inexpensive chemical. One teaspoon in a liter of water is roughly 1%. (From what I have been able to find (http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/washaid.php), the only active ingredient in Hypo Clear formulas, is Sodium Sulfite. The rest is just stabilizer, to ensure shelf life. If you mix your own and toss when done, there is no need for stabilizers, etc.)

mdm

6-Feb-2010, 13:24

FP4+ is very nice in pyrocat. I was very happy with 1:1:100 in BTZS style tubes but struggled to stay awake late enough to get any developing done (mine are not light tight and the sun sets very late in summer) so have recently changed to 1:1:150 and 4 agitation cycles of 4 elastic banded 4x5 sheets in a standard 35mm developing tank, 35 minutes, as per recomendations in another pyrocat thread somewhere. I had some doubt about some of the negatives but they scanned very well. It is very important to be consistent with your agitation and to jolt the tank to dislodge bubbles. I am now using a lot more developer but it would have gone off before I would have finished it anyway, using BTZS tubes.

Slosher trays should work well. I use Ilford Hypam fixer with no trouble. 1 minute 'stop' bath in water.

Regards
David

IanG

7-Feb-2010, 07:31

Second the use of Hypam, or Ilford Rapid Fixer, after Pyrocat. It's better to use a slightly acid fixer particularly when using water instead of acid stop bath.

Ian

sanking

7-Feb-2010, 09:22

Second the use of Hypam, or Ilford Rapid Fixer, after Pyrocat. It's better to use a slightly acid fixer particularly when using water instead of acid stop bath.

Ian

I answer a lot of private email on the question of alkaline versus acid fixer for Pyrocat-HD so thought it might be appropriate to respond.

In The Book of Pyro Gordon Hutchings advises the use of an alkaline fixer with PMK and I assume that he still does. Years ago when I used PMK I generally followed this advice, though in some personal tests I did not find that the use of a slightly acidic fixer had any negative impact on the stain.

When I first developed and introduced the Pyrocat-HD formula I also recommended the use of an alkaline fixer. My thinking at this time is that it does not make any difference whether one uses with Pyrocat-HD an alkaline fixer or one that is slightly acidic.

My personal procedure for negatives developed in Pyrocat is to use an acid stop bath of about 1/2 normal strength, followed by an alkaline fixer like the Formulary TF-4.

Sandy King

Gem Singer

7-Feb-2010, 09:37

FYI,

The Photographer's Formulary now has an improved version of their TF-4 fixer.

TF-5 has little, or no odor and is no longer formulated in a super-saturated milky solution that required shaking before use.

I prefer keeping the entire process alkaline eliminating the unpleasant smell of acetic acid stop bath.

Richard Wasserman

7-Feb-2010, 09:48

[QUOTE=Gem Singer;556823
I prefer keeping the entire process alkaline eliminating the unpleasant smell of acidic stop bath.[/QUOTE]

Citric acid makes a good odor-free stop bath.

Pyrocat HD and FP-4 is my primary 4x5 combination, they are great together.

Ken Lee

7-Feb-2010, 09:51

What is the benefit of a mildly acid stop bath ? Is it to arrest development more instantaneously and completely ?

Performing development by inspection, with the aid of an Infra Red viewing device, I sometimes place a sheet of film in the (water) stop bath, and return it to the developer, on further consideration, bur a little more development.

Does development continue once the film is immersed in water ?

Ken Lee

7-Feb-2010, 09:53

"Citric acid makes a good odor-free stop bath."

I'm so glad you mentioned that. I was wondering, since I have some left over from my excursion into the realm of Pt/Pd.

Could you suggest a formula, IE a dilution ?

Andrew O'Neill

7-Feb-2010, 10:25

To Ken yes, development does continue in the water stop bath, more so in the thinner areas (shadows) and less so in the heavier areas (high values). But to really notice a difference you would have to go back and forth from developer to water stop a few times.

Will my development method work well with Pyrocat?
What is a good starting time for development ( I normally work at EI 50 on the film)?
What type of agitation cycle is recommended?
What stop times and fix times are best?

Any other tips or recommendatons in the processing?

FP4 and Pyrocat-HD is an excellent combo. I have uses both 4x5 and 8x10 formats. Pyrocat is also a great developer for Stand and Semi-stand development if you want to see extreme edge effects.
For normal processing in a tube or tray, EI 64. My times are a bit longer than the norm for Alt processes, anywhere from 10:30 to 14:00. For silver printing, 10:30 (tube development), 11:30 for normal development in a tray (agitation 5 sec every minute). For Stand development, EI 40. 1 minute constant agitation at the beginning, 10 sec at 30 minute mark, and that's it. I do Stand development in a tube. There is a lot of what appears to be bromide drag, so to reduce this effect I pull the film out of the tube and invert it. Stand development is trickier than Semi-stand.
Semi-stand is in a tray. 1 minute constant agitation at the beginning, then 5 sec every 10 minutes. If I let the film rest for 15 minutes instead of 10, I get lots of developer lines.
I dilute Pyrocat 2+2+100 for normal processing (not stand), and for Stand, 5ml+5ml+1200ml water. I use a citric acid stop bath (30sec) and Ilford's Rapid Fix (5min).
21 C for all processing.
Some people give a water bath before development, but I don't bother with that.

Steve Sherman

7-Feb-2010, 10:26

I am a long time user of HC110 (Dil H) with FP4. I use slosher trays for 5x7 and 8x10 with a semi stand method. I am thinking of trying the pyrocat due to all the positive comments on this combo. I have read a lot threads and info already, but have not seen much with a slosh tray method.

A few questions...

Will my development method work well with Pyrocat?
What is a good starting time for development ( I normally work at EI 50 on the film)?
What type of agitation cycle is recommended?
What stop times and fix times are best?

Any other tips or recommendatons in the processing?

Thanks

Kevin

I have not used the slosher method of semi-stand developement, rather upright tubes.

To the first part of your question, Pyrocat vs. HC110. Some years ago (before Sandy introduced Pyrocat HD) the same Ken Lee here in sent me some scans that he had done of several films developed in HC 110 and PMK. Any doubts I had about switching from HC 110 to a pyro based developer were solidified by the difference in sharpness I saw in Ken's tests.

As far as Semi-Stand, I've done a bit of this process and have standardized on 1.5 - 1 - 175 for normal contrast scenes. I rate the film at manufacturers rating as the SS process does not like film which has had generous exposure. Agitation is 1.5 minutes initial "vigourous agitation" after a three minute presoak. Film stands for 13 minutes, 20 second gentle agitation followed by 13 minutes stand, 20 seconds agit. and final stand of 13 mintues, total time in devleoper 40.5 minutes.

The process is quite favorable to compressing extreme amounts of scene contrast as well as expanding scenes of low contrast to which I have various changes to dev. strength and agitation regime.

Cheers

IanG

7-Feb-2010, 10:52

What is the benefit of a mildly acid stop bath ? Is it to arrest development more instantaneously and completely ?

Does development continue once the film is immersed in water ?

Yes, there's a technique called Water bath development. So that's why an acid stop or fix is better.

Carry over of developer into an alkaline fixer will convert it into a Monobath, these kind of issues are more likely to be problematic with Fibre based papers rather than films when a number of prints are being made.

So when Sandy King says

My personal procedure for negatives developed in Pyrocat is to use an acid stop bath of about 1/2 normal strength, followed by an alkaline fixer like the Formulary TF-4.
Sandy King he's using the stop bath as a precaution.

Stop bath (even dilute) is usually quite significantly more acidic than fixers like Hypam, so it's swings and roundabouts, but either way it's better to arrest development in an acidic solution.

It's more likely that the early warnings about acid fixers and PMK can about due to silver image bleach in an older type Sodium Thiosulphate/Ammonium Chloride Rapid Fixer, rather than the stain being bleached, particularly as barely soluble silver complexes are formed in the process, and some of these might redevelop and cause additional stain if the film was reimmersed in the Pyro developer.

Ian

Ken Lee

7-Feb-2010, 10:59

I found this formula for Kodak SB-8 Citric Acid Stop Bath

Water 24 oz
Citric Acid 1/2 oz
Water to make 32 oz

Water 750 ml
Citric Acid 15.0 grams
Water to make 1 litre

IanG

7-Feb-2010, 11:23

A Citric acid stop-bath will have a pH between 2 & 3, while Hypam is pH 5.2-5.4 so a very significant difference.

Ian

Kevin Klazek

7-Feb-2010, 11:28

A lot of great info that confirms I will give it a try. Thanks to all! To get things started for N development, in a tray using a slosher rack, at 70F, for silver printing, how does the following sound? I will start with 1:1:100 mix and an EI of 100.

Pre Soak: 5M ( is this optional or advisable?)

Develope: ??? M with 60 s continuous to start and 5 sec agitation every minute (In Sandys CI chart, it shows 6 M in a BTZS tube. What is a starting point using a tray?)

Stop: I/2 strength acid stop for 1M

Fix: Ilford Rapid Fix for 5M

Wash: 1M in hypoclear and 30M in water

Kevin

Richard Wasserman

7-Feb-2010, 12:12

I found this formula for Kodak SB-8 Citric Acid Stop Bath

Water 24 oz
Citric Acid 1/2 oz
Water to make 32 oz

Water 750 ml
Citric Acid 15.0 grams
Water to make 1 litre

That's the formula I use. FYI, 1 level tablespoon of citric acid weighs 15 grams.

However, with Pyrocat, or any film developer, I don't use a stop bath, just a plain water rinse and I've never noticed any issues of any kind. I use Ryuji Suzuki's neutral fixer formula.

Andrew O'Neill

7-Feb-2010, 13:01

Pre Soak: 5M ( is this optional or advisable?)

I don't bother with a pre-soak for single sheets in a tray. I don't even bother with a pre-soak when using tubes.

EI of 100.

With a "normal" contrast scene before you, shoot a sheet at 100, another at 80 and one more at 64. Develop them for your chosen time. If you decide to use the shuffle method, then a pre-soak is recommended. I HATE developing more than one sheet at a time as you may introduce scratching and an increase in developer temperature from your fingers.
Print them and decide which wins you over.

Kevin Klazek

7-Feb-2010, 14:07

Andrew I was planning on some testing of EI's. What is a good starting time? I will be using a slosher frame in an open tray. As noted Sandy's chart indicates 6M (if I read that correctly) but that is for a tube process.

Kevin

Henry Ambrose

7-Feb-2010, 15:47

Henry Ambrose

7-Feb-2010, 15:49

6 minutes seems a good starting time. I think that's where I ended up using trays and hand shuffling.

sanking

8-Feb-2010, 07:20

Carry over of developer into an alkaline fixer will convert it into a Monobath, these kind of issues are more likely to be problematic with Fibre based papers rather than films when a number of prints are being made.

So when Sandy King says he's using the stop bath as a precaution.

Stop bath (even dilute) is usually quite significantly more acidic than fixers like Hypam, so it's swings and roundabouts, but either way it's better to arrest development in an acidic solution.

Ian

Some years ago I read what some of the proponents of an all alkaline work flow were saying and decided to switch to a water bath. One of the advantages I hoped to see was enhancement of adjacency effects as the developer exhausted in the water stop bath.

Frankly I never saw this, but what I did see from time to time was dichroic fog on my film, which I surmise was caused by the fact that the fixer exhausted faster when the film did not first pass through an acetic stop bath.

So I switched back to an acetic stop bath, but hedged my bets to protect the stain by using it normal strength.

Sandy King

Ken Lee

8-Feb-2010, 07:26

Pyrocat Hde and FP4 are a winner for sure. If desired, you can take the color out of the negatives by adding a little sodium sulfite to the developer just before use. The only downside I found to Pyrocat HD was that it did not last very long in storage for me. I think there are new versions made with other than water (glycol??) that last a long time.

How much Sodium Sulfite please ? How does it work ?

There has been some discussion of the shelf-life of the stock solutions. Mine have lasted over 6 months, and would have probably lasted longer had I removed the air with either glass marbles or a squeezable container. But now I just make my own whenever I need it. Even then, a little goes a long way.

sanking

8-Feb-2010, 07:51

How much Sodium Sulfite please ? How does it work ?

There has been some discussion of the shelf-life of the stock solutions. Mine have lasted over 6 months, and would have probably lasted longer had I removed the air with either glass marbles or a squeezable container. But now I just make my own whenever I need it. Even then, a little goes a long way.

Ken,

It works because the stain with Pyrocat is very sensitive to sodium sulfite. Add too much it disappears and you have a tanning but non-staining developer.

How much? I used to have a record of this from tests but can not find the notes. However, I am pretty sure that the addition of 10 grams per liter of sulfite to a working solution would be enough to kill the stain. Addingl sulfite will also make the Pyrocat much more energetic, i.e. it will develop film to a given contrast much faster.

Sandy King

Ken Lee

8-Feb-2010, 08:02

Brilliant ! I will try this out. Sodium Sulfite is so useful, it's sort of the "Duck Tape" of photo chemistry :)

Meanwhile, here's a photo of a Tulip I made yesterday on 5x7 FP4+ and Pyrocat HD. (150mm APO-Nikkor)

http://www.kennethleegallery.com/images/forum/img014.jpg

D. Bryant

8-Feb-2010, 09:49

FWIW to anyone,

I've always used an acetic acid stop bath and acid fix (almost exclusively Kodak Rapid Fix) for the 15 plus years that I've been using pyro developers and I've never encountered staining problems (lack of stain). This includes Sandy King's pyro cat developer.

Don Bryant

Andrew O'Neill

8-Feb-2010, 12:29

Kevin,

Are you printing on silver gelatin papers? I tend to develop a bit longer than most, even for these papers. If you are developing in a tray with 5 sec agitation every minute, try around 8 minutes. Even if this time is wrong, you'll get your EI.
I should also add that this film does get decent stain, but not as much as HP5+. If you try other films, you will see that some films stain more readily than others. The colour Pyrocat-HD's stain works better for me than PMK and it's continuous agitation version, Rollo Pyro. The stain was more green than Pyrocat's yellow/brown stain.

Henry Ambrose

8-Feb-2010, 12:38

Ken,

It works because the stain with Pyrocat is very sensitive to sodium sulfite. Add too much it disappears and you have a tanning but non-staining developer.

How much? I used to have a record of this from tests but can not find the notes. However, I am pretty sure that the addition of 10 grams per liter of sulfite to a working solution would be enough to kill the stain. Addingl sulfite will also make the Pyrocat much more energetic, i.e. it will develop film to a given contrast much faster.

Sandy King

Sandy is the guy to answer this but 10 grams is about how I remember it as well. I think I increased dilution to slow it down.

Henry

Ken Lee

8-Feb-2010, 13:11

Thanks - I will give this a try.

IanG

9-Feb-2010, 11:19

Some years ago I read what some of the proponents of an all alkaline work flow were saying and decided to switch to a water bath. One of the advantages I hoped to see was enhancement of adjacency effects as the developer exhausted in the water stop bath.

Frankly I never saw this, but what I did see from time to time was dichroic fog on my film, which I surmise was caused by the fact that the fixer exhausted faster when the film did not first pass through an acetic stop bath.

So I switched back to an acetic stop bath, but hedged my bets to protect the stain by using it normal strength.

Sandy King

Makes sense Sandy. The Dichroic fog occurs because of slight development causing the alkali fixer to deposit silver where the two interact.

The main use of alkali fixers is in Colour processing where all the silvers been bleached back to silver halide first anyway, so issues like this don't occur.

Ian

Mark Sawyer

9-Feb-2010, 14:46

What is the benefit of a mildly acid stop bath ? Is it to arrest development more instantaneously and completely ?

It does that, though film usually goes through the water bath and into the fixer rapidly enough that it doesn't matter.

As per Sandy's experience, the stop bath protects the fixer from the alkalinity of the developer. It's more important in printing, as paper developers are much stronger, more work passes through the solutions, and if you're using fiber-based paper, more developer follows a given sized piece of paper as it's absorbed into the paper.

I use a stop bath in printing, but not with film, just a quick dip in the water there...

Ken Lee

10-Feb-2010, 15:06

I just tried adding 1/2 of the recommended 10 grams per liter, with some 4x5 sheets of TMY.

As predicted, the negatives developed faster. Using my IR viewing device for Development By Inspection, I yanked the film around 25% early.

When the film emerged from the fixer, it still had a Magenta cast - but as soon as I rinsed it a bit, all the Magenta dye went down the drain. Wow !

I've never seen Pyrocat negatives like this. They look as though I used any of the other "plain vanilla" developers: No magenta color cast at all. I'm amazed.

Andrew O'Neill

10-Feb-2010, 15:57

Hey Ken, how was image stain?

Ken Lee

10-Feb-2010, 17:46

The color of the stain is slightly brown. But just barely. Not as brown as before. Here's one:

http://www.kennethleegallery.com/images/forum/img022.jpg
Tulips
Sinar P, 240mm APO-Nikkor
4x5 TMY, Pyrocat HD

Ken Lee

11-Feb-2010, 04:05

IanG

11-Feb-2010, 04:33

Tanning is a hardening of the emulsion, staining is a physical dye in addition to the silver image.

Ian

Patrick Dixon

11-Feb-2010, 04:37

I've been processing FP4+ using Prescysol which apparently is very similar to Pyrocat HD.

I've been using the standard 1+5+100 mixture, but only using 106ml for 4 sheets of 4x5 film in an Orbital processor and I'm wondering if I am using too little developer. I don't really want to use much more liquid, so if I double the A & B concentrations (giving 2+10+100), would that give me a similar result to using double the standard solution? What does the water part of the solution do, other than providing a means of getting the A & B solutions to the emulsion?

This was a bit of a catalogue of errors, but it's what I've got so far:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4046/4346902766_2eaa7c22ac.jpg

Orchid. Arca-Swiss Pro1 Symmar-S 210 @f5.6. FP4+ Prescysol

Vlad Soare

11-Feb-2010, 06:14

It works because the stain with Pyrocat is very sensitive to sodium sulfite. Add too much it disappears and you have a tanning but non-staining developer.

How much? I used to have a record of this from tests but can not find the notes. However, I am pretty sure that the addition of 10 grams per liter of sulfite to a working solution would be enough to kill the stain.
Is the sulfite going to kill the stain only if you add it to the developer? I'm asking this because I'm using a simple home-made thiosulfate fixer, which contains 30g of sodium sulfite per liter. So far I've only developed one film in Pyrocat, and the stain is definitely there, though given my total lack of experience with Pyrocat I cannot tell if the stain level is normal or not. :confused:
Should I worry about the sulfite content of my fixer?
Thanks.

IanG

11-Feb-2010, 06:51

No.

Ian

Henry Ambrose

11-Feb-2010, 07:01

Could Sodium Sulfite be added to Part A, or must it be added to the mixed developer, just prior to use ?

Add too much it disappears and you have a tanning but non-staining developer.

Aren't these the same ? What's the difference ?

If you add the sulfite to part A well before use the developer won't last long at all.
I started using sulfite to remove stain because I wanted to print on VC paper and didn't always like the slight tonal shifting effect that the stain gave. For some scenes it wasn't an issue but for photos of people I found it ugly. YMMV.

I'm not sure there is anything to gain by removing the stain unless you're printing on VC paper. For scanning it does not matter at all. But its real easy to add just before use and you can choose each time depending on your purpose at the moment.

sanking

11-Feb-2010, 07:21

If you add the sulfite to part A well before use the developer won't last long at all.
I started using sulfite to remove stain because I wanted to print on VC paper and didn't always like the slight tonal shifting effect that the stain gave. For some scenes it wasn't an issue but for photos of people I found it ugly. YMMV.

I'm not sure there is anything to gain by removing the stain unless you're printing on VC paper. For scanning it does not matter at all. But its real easy to add just before use and you can choose each time depending on your purpose at the moment.

Although I have never tested it I agree with Henry that addition of extra sulfite to Part A will probably make it go bad faster. Beside, for the most part I don't think that killing the stain is a good idea since it is mostly beneficial with most subjects. The best way to take advantage of this is to add the sulfite directly to the working solution in amounts of from 5 grams per liter to whatever amount it takes to completly kill, which should be around 10-15 grams per liter.

If you want less stain with Pyrocat-HD as a general rule you could always double or triple the amount of metabisulfiite in the stock solution, and this would actually increase rather than decrease its shelf life. When you mix the working solution in water the metabisulfite converts to sulfite.

You can get the same result, i.e. less stain and more energy, by adding ascobic acid directlly to the working solution. Again, will have to check my notes but as I recall this works like sulfite with about 1/5 the amount.

The ability to control the stain and the energy of Pyrocat-HD with very small amounts of sulfite or ascorbic is a pretty powerful tool.

Sandy King

Ken Lee

11-Feb-2010, 07:38

sanking

11-Feb-2010, 07:48

"Should I worry about the sulfite content of my fixer?"

As Sandy pointed out a while back, you can make your own one-shot Hypo Clear, with 1 teaspoon of Sodium Sulfite per liter of water.

Did I also mention that a sulfite solution mixed in water will go bad in a relatively short period of time? This is one of the reasons for the lack of consistent results with the old Kodak ABC Pyro formula, which had three stock solutions, one of them a sulfite solution in water. The developer was clean working when fresh, but after some time gave increasing levels of B+F stain.

Sandy

Ken Lee

15-Feb-2010, 18:32

I've reduced the Sodium Sulfite to 3 gm/liter, and the magenta cast is still gone.

Ken Lee

14-Mar-2010, 13:19

It seems to depend on the film. With HP5+, 5 grams per liter is required.

JRFrench

14-Mar-2010, 15:07

"Should I worry about the sulfite content of my fixer?"

Sodium Sulfite acts as a stabilizer in Fixer.

It is also the active ingredient in Hypo Clear or Washing Aid (http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/washaid.php). (The other ingredients are stabilizers to increase shelf life.)

As Sandy pointed out a while back, you can make your own one-shot Hypo Clear, with 1 teaspoon of Sodium Sulfite per liter of water.

Just as an aside, can you use metabisulfite in water instead? Sandy indicates that this turns to sulfite anyway above? The reason I ask is metabisulfite is available from supermarkets here, where other chemicals are rather hard to get with no chemical retailers at all in the country.