moving to LF newbie questions

[David Higgs]

I hope this post won't be met with 'do a search' or 'this has been discussed loads of times' you people in here seem nicer than that :)
(and I have done a lot of searching)

I've sold all my digital gear, which I fell into like a lot of people last decade, and have taken up my old MF rangefinder and loving being back into only 8 shots per roll slow and contemplative photography, and light meters I'd forgotten how much fun they can be. However for a lot of the shots i want to make the movements on a view camera would be very useful/essential - I like wild and wooly landscape work, usually having a hike to the photo site.
I'm currently developing my own B+W, sending out E6, and then flat bed scanning for an average contact type sheet before sending negs out to be professionally scanned if they are worth it, this is sort of working well at present.

Now the questions:

I need to get my hands on some cameras which isn't as easy as it sounds as all the local camera shops are almost purely digital, and my old fave shop that did all the film work has sadly closed down.
I think because of the need to walk a few miles before taking the pics might restrict me to wooden folding field cameras, but there are a few Linhof technikas around that come with 90mm and 150mm focal lengths which appears to be a good starting off point - will they be prohibitively heavy - do any forum members hike around with them?

I'd quite like to start by using a 6x12/6x9 back, I appreciate that there will be a steepish learning curve as I last used a view camera under close supervision around 20 years ago. I can process 120 myself, for some reason 4x5 looks tricky - I haven't a dark room (anymore) and when i search for 4x5 processing I see lots of people with problems and not solutions, can you get the equivalent of a day light tank for 4x5s?
I'm confused which back fits what, are they one size fits all for 4x5 or are there peculiarities between different body manufacturers? I have got the lens board issue sorted. Same question about interchangeability for the dark slides.

Lenses - am I ok looking at the ubitiquous Schneider 90 f8 (I'm discounting the 90 f6.8 as I may want to do 617 in the future), will that be too dark for focusing and composition? I did very well selling my 35mm stuff, so a nikkor 4.5 although heavy/more expensive doesn't look too frightening, would this be significantly easier to use?


Oh and if anyone is selling up and has a light view camera with some lenses - I'm interested!

Thanks for any help you can offer

[memorris]

Wooden field cameras are usually considered to be the best for packing. I have an Arca-Swiss Field which is a monorail but is light weight and as easy (or easier) to set up than a wooden field camera. It has fewer restrictions but is considerably more expensive.

Jobo tanks are great for developing 4X5 film by hand. The 2500 series is what most people use. I have never had any significant problems developing sheet film.

When I started I wanted a 120 roll back. Looking at the price of a decent one I never pulled the trigger and have no regrets. 4X5 sheets are nice large negatives so why limit yourself to the smaller film when you have most of the weight and expense already with the camera and lenses.

[David Higgs]

I guess its the familiarity aspect - 120 roll film is easily process in my work flow, I know that I am going to make mistakes, my plan is to practice on 120 and then go to 4x5 - the chinese make 120 backs offering 6x6,6x9,6x12 at reasonable cost

[Steve Hamley]

David,

Welcome to large format! Using a view camera is a very enjoyable experience once you get comfortable with it, which won't take too long.

Technikas are fine cameras, and many people use them in a variety of ways. But they are on the heavy side for what people normally consider "packable" weights. The Technika weight isn't that bad for a couple of lenses and a couple of miles, but things do start to add up. Filmholders are heavy, and since the demise of packet film this has to be considered - weight add up fast in LF.

The usual wood field suspects are the Tachihara, Shen Hao, and Chamonix. Badger Graphic offers Tachihara and Shen Hao intro kits:

http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=2

My preference for an into camera leans more towards the Ebony RW45 because of it's conventional controls, and like the Chamonix, many people never go any further up the camera "food chain" than these two models, depending on their preferences.

I'd go ahead and grab a few film holders and get started with sheet film. In many respects it will be as easy or easier than roll film on a 4x5 camera. I used a bathroom for some time, and daylight tanks are available.

As far as backs go, you'll have to have a camera with "Graflock" bars to hold a roll film back. Graflock bars are sliding bars that slide into slots on the roll film back. So the camera has to have Graflock bars and the roll film back has to have slots for them to slide into, with the exception of some Calumet backs which just slide under the film back like a film holder.

One caution, I'd avoid any older camera or lens that needs service unless you plan on doing the service first. You don't need to be worrying about leaking bellows, balky shutters, and hazy glass while you're learning and appraising large format - dealing with those issues can be frustrating and expensive, so whatever you end up with, make sure it's serviceable and dependable out of the box. If you want to get into vintage cameras and lenses later, you can and it is fun.

Cheers, Steve

[Tintype Bob]

If you are just starting with large format you might think of getting an old speed or crown graphic, you can find them cheap on e-bay. they can accept many types of holders and although limited to a few movements would be easy to learn on.

This is the way I started (they were still making them then) and I have never regretted it.

As far as processing equipment this is where you should spend some money and stay away from cheap tanks they will only make learning harder.

Hope this helps:)

[ki6mf]

It sounds like panoramic is what is of interest and for this a good choice is one of the 4X5 wooden field cameras with the 6X12 or larger adapter. You probably will need to buy the pano back new you can find used cameras with no problem. This combination will let you move up to 4X5 if you so desire. Another choice is to buy a dedicated Pano camera and the link above to Badger Graphics will let you look over several choices. I have not seen to many used pano LF cameras.

I don't have a camera recommendation as its only a box to hold light in. I do shoot a 4X5 Shen Hao and am happy with it. I do recommend both Badger or Mid West Photo as they carry MF and LF gear. Also if buying film is a Freestyle photo in California is a good place to shop. Adorama and B&H also always stock film. A good source for used gear is KEH.com

[Robert Hughes]

I second Tintype Bob's comment - I got a Busch Pressman cheap off the Dreaded, it's easy to work with (and has rise & tilt for fancy shots), light and virtually indestructable, uses standard 4x5 holders, and takes good pictures. What more could I ask for the money? :)

As for 4x5 processing - I tray process in my bathroom, on top of the sink. After a bit of practice it's dead simple, easier than cooking (in the dark,heh).

[ki6mf]

Good choice on the Press type of camera. The only thing they do not do is allow range of movements that a view or press camera does. This allows you to correct perspective on the film. If its a graflex style back it chould also take a pano type of attachment. If you want to lean more about view camera movements go to your library and borrow
Using the View Camera by Steve Simmons

[ki6mf]

Good choice on the Press type of camera. The only thing they do not do is allow range of movements that a view or press camera does. This allows you to correct perspective on the film. If its a graflex style back it could also take a pano type of attachment. If you want to lean more about view camera movements go to your library and borrow
Using the View Camera by Steve Simmons

[RK_LFteacher]

I hope this post won't be met with 'do a search' or 'this has been discussed loads of times' you people in here seem nicer than that :)
(and I have done a lot of searching)

I've sold all my digital gear, which I fell into like a lot of people last decade, and have taken up my old MF rangefinder and loving being back into only 8 shots per roll slow and contemplative photography, and light meters I'd forgotten how much fun they can be. However for a lot of the shots i want to make the movements on a view camera would be very useful/essential - I like wild and wooly landscape work, usually having a hike to the photo site.
I'm currently developing my own B+W, sending out E6, and then flat bed scanning for an average contact type sheet before sending negs out to be professionally scanned if they are worth it, this is sort of working well at present.

Now the questions:

I need to get my hands on some cameras which isn't as easy as it sounds as all the local camera shops are almost purely digital, and my old fave shop that did all the film work has sadly closed down.
I think because of the need to walk a few miles before taking the pics might restrict me to wooden folding field cameras, but there are a few Linhof technikas around that come with 90mm and 150mm focal lengths which appears to be a good starting off point - will they be prohibitively heavy - do any forum members hike around with them?

I'd quite like to start by using a 6x12/6x9 back, I appreciate that there will be a steepish learning curve as I last used a view camera under close supervision around 20 years ago. I can process 120 myself, for some reason 4x5 looks tricky - I haven't a dark room (anymore) and when i search for 4x5 processing I see lots of people with problems and not solutions, can you get the equivalent of a day light tank for 4x5s?
I'm confused which back fits what, are they one size fits all for 4x5 or are there peculiarities between different body manufacturers? I have got the lens board issue sorted. Same question about interchangeability for the dark slides.

Lenses - am I ok looking at the ubitiquous Schneider 90 f8 (I'm discounting the 90 f6.8 as I may want to do 617 in the future), will that be too dark for focusing and composition? I did very well selling my 35mm stuff, so a nikkor 4.5 although heavy/more expensive doesn't look too frightening, would this be significantly easier to use?


Oh and if anyone is selling up and has a light view camera with some lenses - I'm interested!

Thanks for any help you can offer

[David Higgs]

thanks for the replies so far, I hope I haven't misled you lot, I definately want to do 4x5, but as I'm familiar with 120 and can get it processed same day etc I was thinking of using that as a learning tool before firing off loads of 4x5

I'm based in the UK, but will be in Arizona in September

any thoughts on the lenses?

[anchored]

In my opinion, as I use a Linhof Master Technika, and do hike with it: No, it is not too heavy for backpacking. Considering all the other accessories that goes into the backpack, a few extra ounces of camera weight won't really be that noticeable. Most of the weight of a backpack (at least mine), can be blamed on lenses and film holders and accessories.

On using pano 120 film holders to start: I came from a medium format background, and have the back for shooting 120 film in my 4x5... thought it would be a great asset... but it's never been used. To my way of thinking... if I'm wanting a pano, I'll still shoot on 4x5 film and then crop to suit the image instead of trying to compose to suit a specific format.

Learning curve: You'll find it far less than one might think if you're an experienced photographer. Hardest part is learning the mechanics on a particular camera. Don't let the technicals scare you... shooting a large format camera ain't rocket science, even if an article here and there makes it sound so.

[Thebes]

Unlike others, I do not recommend starting with a Press camera. The reason is simple, so much LF work involves movements that choosing a camera offering so few cuts them out of your self-taught LF education. If you don't know how to use them you will not use them as well in the future. When I went to Indiana University a decade plus ago, all LF was taught on a monorail for this reason. Now that I am shooting a camera without back movements, I understand how to compensate for those lack of movements- I'd have been extremely frustrated if I learned on it though. If you consider Press cameras, consider stepping up to a Technika IV or greater for a fuller range of movements. Or get a monorail, they are cheap used and if you plan your outfit out your can use lenses on both a monorail and a future field camera. Some monorails have rail setups that can collapse, these are generally significantly more expensive (eg, Arca Swiss).

FWIW, you might consider how a roll film holder works in practice. I am using a 6x12 Horseman rfh. I have a 6x7, but I don't use that one much. I find removing the ground glass for each shot (unless bracketing or using the rangefinder) to be a pain. Horseman made a graflok back that allows use of 2x3 rfh's and you can rotate back to ground glass quickly, note that they made three versions of these and only one fits 4x5's with a graflok back. Wista made a sliding arrangement that is similar but unique to their cameras... these work only up to 6x9. I find myself wanting to shoot more 4x5 and less 6x12 because of this, and its why I rarely use the 6x7- it is easier and much less "fussy" to just stick in a film holder versus putting on a graflok rfh, I have been using my 612 mostly for color roll films because its so much cheaper to send off that way.

[Robert Hughes]

Unlike others, I do not recommend starting with a Press camera. The reason is simple, so much LF work involves movements that choosing a camera offering so few cuts them out of your self-taught LF education.

Au contraire. IMO, excessive camera movement manipulation is a sign that I need to choose a simpler angle.

[seabird]

I think because of the need to walk a few miles before taking the pics might restrict me to wooden folding field cameras, but there are a few Linhof technikas around that come with 90mm and 150mm focal lengths which appears to be a good starting off point - will they be prohibitively heavy - do any forum members hike around with them?


Hi David,

I hike with a Technika IV, 3 lenses (90, 150, 300), the usual accessories ( incl. 4 or 5 film holders) and an OM-4/135mm combo that I use as light-meter. Short hike (c.1 hr from car max) it all goes into an "over the shoulder" bag; longer trips I use a backpack. No over-nighters. I'm not in peak physical condition and a lot of the hikes involve up/down work - I (usually) cope without too many problems (although calf muscles etc sometimes feel it the following day ...).

The Technika folds into a robust, compact brick that doesn't need a lot of coddling in a backpack. Contrast that with wooden field cameras that might need a bit more protection. My ideal lightweight kit would be something like a Technika with a 135mm Apo-Sironar-S that can be left mounted when the camera is closed.




I can process 120 myself, for some reason 4x5 looks tricky - I haven't a dark room (anymore) and when i search for 4x5 processing I see lots of people with problems and not solutions, can you get the equivalent of a day light tank for 4x5s?


If you can develop 120 then, provided you have the equipment, you'll have no trouble developing 4x5. I use Jobo 2500 series tanks and reels without problem. I actually find loading the 4x5 reel easier than loading 120 onto a paterson reel. No darkroom needn't be a deal-breaker. You can load both film holders and developing tanks in a large changing bag or other light-tight space (I also use a table in a walk-in wardrobe that I can make light tight).



Lenses - am I ok looking at the ubitiquous Schneider 90 f8 (I'm discounting the 90 f6.8 as I may want to do 617 in the future), will that be too dark for focusing and composition? I did very well selling my 35mm stuff, so a nikkor 4.5 although heavy/more expensive doesn't look too frightening, would this be significantly easier to use?


I use the Nikkor SW-90/8 and spend a lot of time in rainforests on cloudy days. Believe me, it can get quite dim in there! Moreover my eye-sight isn't what it used to be and I dont use a fresnel - just the standard Tech IV GG. Nevertheless, I still manage to compose/focus at f8. Can't comment on the Nikkor SW-90/4.5 as I've not used it but I anticipate the extra brightness would make focussing easier - but then there's the trade-off with extra weight & size.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[mortensen]

4X5 sheets are nice large negatives so why limit yourself to the smaller film when you have most of the weight and expense already with the camera and lenses.

couldn't agree more! I moved from digital to LF half a year ago, I'm not educated as a photographer, have never really shot analog (I'm too young, haha) and haven't even read through Adam's 'the negative' yet. But, nevertheless I have developed quite a few negatives in one of the much hated (but also occasionally liked) HP-Tanks with success. Neither loading holders nor developing with daylight tanks is a pain, really.

Regarding camera, I bought a Chamonix - I needed light weight, rigidity and lots of movements (architecture). I am very pleased with it, although I have experienced it's focusing error the hard way... so I removed the fresnel recently (if you consider the chamonix, do a search on the focusing error and read a bit). Which lead to lenses: I started with a Grandagon-N 90 f4.5. It's probably in the heavy end, but allows for more than 45mm of rise with no vignetting! I'm satisfied - and it's easy to focus even without a fresnel. Buying a good dark cloth is also part of it.

good luck!

[J D Clark]

Lenses - am I ok looking at the ubitiquous Schneider 90 f8 (I'm discounting the 90 f6.8 as I may want to do 617 in the future), will that be too dark for focusing and composition? I did very well selling my 35mm stuff, so a nikkor 4.5 although heavy/more expensive doesn't look too frightening, would this be significantly easier to use?

I'd like to suggest an alternative lens -- the Schneider 110mm f5.6 Super Symmar XL. It's light and bright (at least, brighter than the f8). It's not for the faint-of-heart costwise, though, used lenses run about $1100 at auction. It's a wonderful lens!

I don't find my Linhof Master Technika too heavy to hike with -- there are lots of variables of course. But when you consider the other gear you'll need to carry, the difference between the weight of the MT and another lighter camera nearly becomes moot. I know master hikers consider the difference of a pound significant -- and that's why I have a carbon tripod!

John Clark
www.johndclark.com

[David Higgs]

Managed to secure a Linhof Technica IV, 90mm f8 super angulon, Symmar 150 and a processing kit for E6/C41 for less than I sold my last 35mm lens for...

just need to order some film, find some dark slides and away I go wish me luck



thanks for all your replies

expect more questions as I go on!

[CarstenW]

Whoa. What was your last 35mm lens, a 600/4??? :)

[evatw001]

Thanks for this thread, really helped me out. I am also a bit of a newb when it comes to these things.

Cuban Cigars (http://www.gocubans.com)

[John Kasaian]

Managed to secure a Linhof Technica IV, 90mm f8 super angulon, Symmar 150 and a processing kit for E6/C41 for less than I sold my last 35mm lens for...

just need to order some film, find some dark slides and away I go wish me luck



thanks for all your replies

expect more questions as I go on!
It sounds like you procured a fine kit! You can't go wrong with a Technika.
Good Light!