Kodak Portrait Lens—other Dual Purpose Considerations

[Mark Booth]

I am planning to venture into a new world of discovery with my new interest in vintage lenses. Unfortunately I am not that experienced with large format vintage lenses and have only used vintage glass with Leica cameras until recently. I shoot large format with a 4x5 Wisner camera and recently fell in love with a purchase of a minty Schneider Angulon f6.8/12cm lens with synchro-compur shutter. I quickly became hooked on vintage glass—smooth tonal transitions and bokeh.

I am actually considering a sharp but smooth vintage lens for landscape use in the slight to moderately long lens category for 4x5 application. However, I am also interested in a (dual purpose) lens (or second dedicated lens) that can work well for soft luminous aberrations in portraiture and table top fine art.

I understand that the Wollensak Verito is legendary as a true soft portrait lens, and I love what I have seen done with the Voigtlander Heliar lens in limited depth of field and smooth transitions of high values and tonal separation. I have three primary questions to ask of those with far more expertise than myself in this area.

1) Assuming (dual purpose) Does the Heliar work well for distant subjects as in landscape use? If so, which Heliar lens design works best for this application—Heliar Defocus/Dynar Type/Universal Helair models?

2) I am not knowledgeable of the Kodak Portrait lens, but would this lens present itself as a dual purpose lens?

3) Is it best to go with two distinctively different lenses to obtain a smooth but sharp landscape image, and then a second lens purchase for soft focus applications, or can a dual purpose lens approach work for my descriptions?

Thanks for contributing to this discussion thread.

—Mark Booth
Issaquah, WA. USA

[Shen45]

A Verito wide open or just closed down a tad for portraits and shot at between 11 and 16 will give sharp but smooth for landscape, a very versatile lens.

[Mark Booth]

Steve, Thanks for this helpful comment. I would of never considered the Verito to be this versatile in landscape too. One only hears of its renown for glowing highlights in portraiture and the like.

[CCHarrison]

Mark

I am about to publish Part 2 of my Soft Focus Lens Article which will help answer your question, but my short answer is to look into the Wollensak Velostigmat Series II lens. This is a sharp 4 element anastigmat with the option of adding diffusion via moving the front cell. Note that only the larger sizes have the diffusion feature. Also, these are less expensive than most other options. The Verito is another option but for sharp pics you need to stop down to f/11 and smaller.. However, the added benefit is you can use the rear cell alone for a longer focal length...

I am sure you will get more good advice...

Dan

[wfwhitaker]

With a Wisner 4x5 you're limited to 4x4-inch lensboards (or Technika with an adapter). The Kodak 305mm Portrait lens when available in a shutter is in an Ilex 5 shutter and is going to be too big for that lensboard. Heliars were available in a 21cm focal length. Also the Verito was available in an 8 3/4" focal length. Both would be appropriate for your format and your camera. But don't limit yourself; consider other vintage lenses, too. Velostigmats, Radar's and other so-called "commercial" lenses were intended to be dual-purpose lenses in their day - slightly soft wide open, but quickly becoming sharp as they're closed down. Keep in mind that the overall look can be largely attributable to the lens, but is partly due to the film used, processing and the lighting.

[Shen45]

Steve, Thanks for this helpful comment. I would of never considered the Verito to be this versatile in landscape too. One only hears of its renown for glowing highlights in portraiture and the like.

I'm not sure, I haven't checked lately, but Will had a wonderful series on how the Verito behaved at various apertures. It was actually the reason I purchased mine. If he still has the link active maybe he will post it.

[Shen45]

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/verito.htm

Thanks for the effort you did on this series Will.

[Mark Booth]

Steve/Dan/Will:

Thank you for your outstanding suggestions. I am continually amazed at the wealth of knowledge that exist within the photographic community and appreciate your insights shared on vintage large format lenses.


I am about to publish Part 2 of my Soft Focus Lens Article

Dan, thank you for the news about your soon to be published article! Steve, thank you for making mention of Will's outstanding lens performance (example) page on the Wollensak Verito 8 3/4" f/4 lens.

This is a huge help in getting me pointed in the right direction!


Wollensak Velostigmat Series II lens. This is a sharp 4 element anastigmat with the option of adding diffusion via moving the front cell.

Dan, you make mention of "moving" the front cell—is this removing the cell or by way of adjustment? Do you know at what focal length this feature is available?

Thanks,
Mark

[Mark Booth]

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/verito.htm

Will makes mention that the Wollensak Verito 8 3/4" lens is mounted in a Ilex Universal #4 shutter. I presume that the #4 shutter would fit on my Wisner lens board? Would such a thing be best installed on a barrel lens by SK Grimes or other recommendations? (This might be viable option for me)

[CCHarrison]

Mark

take a look at this thread by Mark Sawyer
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=57385

Thanks
Dan

[Mark Booth]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=57385

Dan, your thread by Mark Sawyer is excellent and has opened up a huge realm of possibilities to consider.

Thanks Guys!

[Bernard Kaye]

Place a 1/4 inch wide soft-flexible rubber band under your thumbs and on the front lens retaining (beauty) ring, press carefully into-onto the ring and twist counterclock wise to loosen and unscrew the ring; it helps if the lens or shutter is on a non-slip surface to hold it all in place. Unfortunately, they do not put lens tool 180 degree notches on many front bezels and many front rings.
Bernie

[wfwhitaker]

Will makes mention that the Wollensak Verito 8 3/4" lens is mounted in a Ilex Universal #4 shutter. I presume that the #4 shutter would fit on my Wisner lens board?

Mark,

MY 8 3/4" Verito is in an Ilex 4. It's not a factory mounting; I stuck it there because it fit. I have not been able to determine if that's a universal rule. I doubt it as there were more manufacturing variations with vintage equipment than is typical today. That said, the Ilex 4 is a good size for an 8 3/4" Verito and it's sync'ed. But you might well have to have your particular lens adapted to the shutter. If you're going to go to the expense of having a machinist fit the lens to the shutter, I'd look at possibly using a Copal 3 instead. The Copal is a more modern and more reliable shutter. The lens threads are only slightly smaller than the Ilex 4, so it might work. Either the Ilex 4 or the Copal 3 will 4x4-inch lensboards and Technika lensboards.

Mark, I can tell you from experience that with your curiosity in lenses, you're going to fast outgrow a camera with 4x4 lensboards. But that's another thread...


Will had a wonderful series on how the Verito behaved at various apertures. It was actually the reason I purchased mine.

Steve, I hope I didn't cost you too much money!

[Brook Martin]

I some how got a shuttered Kodak 305 Portrait lens on a 4x4 board, it was not pretty but it did work, sort of. They give sharp but dreamy landscape stopped down to f22.

[Mark Booth]

Mark, I can tell you from experience that with your curiosity in lenses, you're going to fast outgrow a camera with 4x4 lensboards. But that's another thread...

Yes Will, I believe you're correct in your observation—a lot for me to learn! I'll keep you posted and will review all of the threads shared by all.

Reflection: In recent years I have become immensely passionate about the craft and tactile aspects of what makes our classic photographic medium (silver gelatin & alternative processes) distinctly different than most modern "image capture" or "workflow" systems of our day.

In 2009, I had the privilege to copy edit for Steve Anchell, his recent release, The Darkroom Cookbook, third edition. I have sought to hone my darkroom and shooting skills toward a greater purpose of mastery and teaching of the next generation of traditional arts—the importance of light, form, and composition. I have come to realize that a significant part of this artistic and disciplined process of photography, is predicated upon one's skill and utilization of all forms of the imaging chain, including the beauty and optical uniqueness of vintage glass, especially when manipulated by skilled users to optimum levels of capability. Vintage glass connects us to our historical roots, and enables us to better appreciate what has made photography so great—fostering "vision" to us in our distinctive aspects.

Conclusion/Small Talk: I recently purchased a minty Voigtlander Bessa RF folder camera with a f3.5/10.5cm Heliar lens from Jurgen Kreckel. Whether with small format photography or with ULF negatives, one can truly "fall in love" with the beauty of vintage lenses and grow one's discovery and skills. http://www.certo6.com/

[Shen45]

Mark,

MY 8 3/4" Verito is in an Ilex 4. It's not a factory mounting; I stuck it there because it fit. I have not been able to determine if that's a universal rule. I doubt it as there were more manufacturing variations with vintage equipment than is typical today. That said, the Ilex 4 is a good size for an 8 3/4" Verito and it's sync'ed. But you might well have to have your particular lens adapted to the shutter. If you're going to go to the expense of having a machinist fit the lens to the shutter, I'd look at possibly using a Copal 3 instead. The Copal is a more modern and more reliable shutter. The lens threads are only slightly smaller than the Ilex 4, so it might work. Either the Ilex 4 or the Copal 3 will 4x4-inch lensboards and Technika lensboards.

Mark, I can tell you from experience that with your curiosity in lenses, you're going to fast outgrow a camera with 4x4 lensboards. But that's another thread...



Steve, I hope I didn't cost you too much money!

Only the airline tickets to America and a trip to Tonapah and a great day with Jim Galli. :)

[Mark Sawyer]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=57385

Dan, your thread by Mark Sawyer is excellent and has opened up a huge realm of possibilities to consider.

Thanks Guys!

I wouldn't trust that Sawyer guy, he doesn't know what he's talking about...

I'll offer the following, though...

The modern "sharp" lenses have the same design goals, and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the "look" they give.. (There are other considerations, like coverage, size, weight, etc., but they don't really seem to affect how a negative/print looks when the lens is used within its parameters.)

But in the soft-focus lenses, the designers put much more of their own aesthetic preferences into the lenses. A Cooke Portrait Lens is completely different from a Verito, which is completely different fron a Pinkham and Smith, which is completely different from an Imagon...

There's a huge difference in how they play with the aberrations. The Cooke is subtle, so you can use it wide open with a hint of softness. You can get a semi-similar subtleness with the Verito, but at f/9 instead of f/3.5 or 4.5, so the depth of field is completely different, and the Cooke's tonal renditions seem a little richer. But some of that may be in the interaction between the lens and the processing...

Some of why the older lenses seem "smoother" is that they're uncoated, and the internal flare levels out the curve, especially into the shadows. Someone (like me) who's used to the old uncoated lenses and adjusts their processing to fit them will find newer multicoated lenses "harsh" because of their higher contrast. I wonder whether someone who uses multicoated lenses regularly and processes their film accordingly would make the same judgement...

It takes a little while to learn what the lenses do, and a bit longer to reliably predict it ahead of time. On the other hand, mistakes during the learning process will be as beautiful as those made later when you have reasonable control. I enjoy playing "slop pool" learning a new lens as much as calling my shots with an old favorite.

The soft-focus lenses make me feel like Forrest Gump: "A new lens is like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're going to get..." :rolleyes:

[Mark Booth]

Thanks to all for this great discussion and its beneficial recommendations. I considered carefully Dan's recommendation on the Wollensak Velostigmat Series II lens.

I would like to mention that I just purchase a "mint" Wollensak Velostigmat Series II 12" lens from Jim Galli. I plan to add to this start-up collection a few more lenses in the near future.

Jim's work with soft focus and his blogs of various lens examples have been a great help to me. Here is a picture of this lens. As you can tell I am excited and anticipatory of its use.

http://content.screencast.com/users/Pictorial/folders/Jing/media/57420fa1-1f9a-4463-b30a-fe390c2c161c/00000001.png

http://content.screencast.com/users/Pictorial/folders/Jing/media/54c307c7-5dbb-41c3-b9e7-f658d73a2ca8/00000002.png

[Mark Sawyer]

I would like to mention that I just purchase a "mint" Wollensak Velostigmat Series II 12" lens from Jim Galli. I plan to add to this start-up collection a few more lenses in the near future.



Beautiful lens! *sigh*

You'll likely get hooked and want more lenses, but you could happily spend a lifetime with just that one!

[David Aimone]

I am curious on how you were able to get this to work.


I some how got a shuttered Kodak 305 Portrait lens on a 4x4 board, it was not pretty but it did work, sort of. They give sharp but dreamy landscape stopped down to f22.

[Jan Pedersen]

Most of Kodak's 305mm Portrait lenses came factory mounted in an Ilex #5 but there are some barrel lenses out there too.
The 405mm always just in barrel since no shutter is large enough for this monster.

[Scott Davis]

I have the 405. Jan's right about it being a monster- it barely fits on a Deardorff 8" lensboard. Tips the scales at somewhere north of 5 lbs, which is amazing when you realize it's only 2 elements and a diaphragm.

[Larry H-L]

The 305 Portrait Kodak lenses apparently came in more than one version; the rear element on my lens is flared out, others move straight back from the shutter.