Final B&W Print

[galupi20]

http://galupi20.smugmug.com/Other/BW-TEST/Cubanos-a-probarBW/776166028_vRawV-L.jpg

Need your advice please. This image was taken with Sinar x/180 Sinaron DB/Sinar 54M DB. Nik Silver Efex Pro was used to convert to B&W. Just three questions :

1) Do I expect to have the same range of tones printing it with an Epson Pro inkjet printer or sending it to Digital Silver Imaging ? Just to have an idea, I dont think I will print this image in particular.

2) Will I have better results taking the pic in B&W, scan it with a good scanner ( i.e. Imacon ) and then print whith either of the above mention alternatives ?

3) Do I need to buy "Digital " large format lenses to obtain better quality with this gear ? I have Sinaron 240mm DB, Super Symmar 210 and Sinaron 90 6.8

Why am I asking this ? Because is too expensive for me to buy a Tech camera to use with my 54M. I have Ebony 45SU and Sinar x and if the quality of the prints are good I can use wide angle lenses without the crop factor of the sensor and dont need to invest in more expensive lenses.

I am not a pro , only an entusiast amateur and I will not have to sell my prints.

Thanks a lot

Luis

[JeffKohn]

http://galupi20.smugmug.com/Other/BW-TEST/Cubanos-a-probarBW/776166028_vRawV-L.jpg

Need your advice please. This image was taken with Sinar x/180 Sinaron DB/Sinar 54M DB. Nik Silver Efex Pro was used to convert to B&W. Just three questions :

1) Do I expect to have the same range of tones printing it with an Epson Pro inkjet printer or sending it to Digital Silver Imaging ? Just to have an idea, I dont think I will print this image in particular.Today's inkjets can produce very good prints, rivaling wet prints in some ways. They don't necessarily look the 'same', they're different technologies and have their own looks. But yes you can produce inkjets with excellent tonal range if you know what you're doing and have the right equipment. There's a learning curve though.


2) Will I have better results taking the pic in B&W, scan it with a good scanner ( i.e. Imacon ) and then print whith either of the above mention alternatives ?That's way too subjective a question, I'll let somebody else take that one. :smile:


3) Do I need to buy "Digital " large format lenses to obtain better quality with this gear ? I have Sinaron 240mm DB, Super Symmar 210 and Sinaron 90 6.8I did a little googling and it seems the 54m is an older 22-megapixel back, although I couldn't find out what size the sensor is. If it's 24x36mm, those are still pretty small photosites so you would probably benefit from the made-for-digital lenses, which tend to have smaller image circles but greater resolving power.


Why am I asking this ? Because is too expensive for me to buy a Tech camera to use with my 54M. I have Ebony 45SU and Sinar x and if the quality of the prints are good I can use wide angle lenses without the crop factor of the sensor and dont need to invest in more expensive lenses.

I am not a pro , only an entusiast amateur and I will not have to sell my prints.
If you're just doing it for yourself, then I would suggest getting a few prints made and seeing how you like them. It may be that for the sizes you want to print, your current lenses are adequate.

[galupi20]

Thanks a lot Jeff for your answer. The 54M is 49 x 37mm.

Don't understad answer number 2. I am not from the USA. May be is an ironic answer. Of course..I dont have an Imacon neiter an Epson Pro Inject Printer. I will send the pics to a Lab.

Luis

[memorris]

After working with very good LF photographers and printers as well as several people who are quite good with scanners and printers as well as some pro lab work I will stage without hesitation although inkjet is okay, it does in no way rival the quality of a wet print done right. That is the key, well printed wet prints have a richness and depth that inkjet can not produce. I am certain there are those who disagree but I have been fortunate enough to see work produced by some present day master of the darkroom and their work is amazing.

[JeffKohn]

Thanks a lot Jeff for your answer. The 54M is 49 x 37mm.In that case your current lenses may be OK, and the latest and greatest Rodenstock HR's are almost certainly overkill.


Don't understad answer number 2. I am not from the USA. May be is an ironic answer. Of course..I dont have an Imacon neiter an Epson Pro Inject Printer. I will send the pics to a Lab.I just mean that the question of film versus digital capture is highly subjective and you're going to get widely varying opinions on it, but there's really no definitive, 'right' answer. Also, you're likely to get different answers from most forum members here than you would in a forum where mostly digital back users participated.

[Ed Richards]

And I am one who disagrees.:-) IMHO, the higher dmax of the best inkjet papers allows more depth and richness than silver prints. But they are not the same, and it really is a matter of taste. But it hard to master digital printing, so you will get better results from Digital Silver Imaging because they do the image work for you, at least until you have spent a few years working on your digital printing.

[JR Steel]

at least until you have spent a few years working on your digital printing.

and what path would you suggest someone like myself follow to learn to print the highest quality inkjet prints. I have the Epson 4800 and I am just starting to test the Ilford Gold Fiber paper.

[JeffKohn]

and what path would you suggest someone like myself follow to learn to print the highest quality inkjet prints. I have the Epson 4800 and I am just starting to test the Ilford Gold Fiber paper.
This would be a pretty good start:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/camera-print.shtml

[galupi20]

Another option for B&W inkjet print by yourself

http://www.piezography.com/site/what-is-piezography.html

Luis

[paulr]

I've grown to like monochrome inkjets (like the process Luis links) more than silver prints most of the time. They definitely look like a different process, though ... mine look like a cross between silver and platinum, with some of the benefits and shortcomings of each.

I have never seen ink prints with a dmax anywhere near as high as what I achieved in my silver prints ... that's an area where my silver prints have a distinct advantage. Although I'm not using a paper/ink combination that's optimized for that, and I was using silver papers that are no longer available.

[Ed Richards]

> I have never seen ink prints with a dmax anywhere near as high as what I achieved in my silver prints

Try some Harman FB Gloss, in Epson BW mode.

As for learning how, start simple. Stick with Epson B&W mode, use a paper it works great on, such as Harmon FB Gloss, or Epson Exhibition Fiber (now on sale at great prices). You can print from Photoshop, but I find Qimage much more effective. I prepare my images in Photoshop, sharpened to look correct at 100% on the screen, then I use Qimage to scale and output sharpen. That saves the ordeal of figuring out output sharpening. Most importantly, buy a big stack of paper and bunch of ink cartridges, and make a LOT of prints. You absolutely cannot learn to do printing by looking at images on the screen. You make a print, you look at it hard, you tune the image, then you make another print. If you worked in the darkroom, it is exactly the same way. You should count on doing at least 500 prints before you start to get the hang of it, and then, like the darkroom, the more you do, the better you get. That is 500 different prints, not just setting the printer to auto and running off a stack.:-) Unfortunately, you need to use good paper, otherwise you do not get good dmax, so this is not a cheap exercise. Buy some rolls for your 4800 and start printing. You can do a lot of this with 8x10s, so you will not have to burn too much paper. Eventually you will have to make final size prints, and that is where the costs go up.

[JR Steel]

Thanks JeffKohn for the lead. Looks like a good resource.

Luis, I think the K7 inksets would be the cats meow but I only have the one photo printer and am not ready to dedicate it to B&W yet. I actually sell some of my color stuff now and then.

Ed, Good advice but I'm not sure I'll live long enough to print 500 different 4x5 images as slow as I am making them. Going to try though. :D

[ignatiusjk]

http://galupi20.smugmug.com/Other/BW-TEST/Cubanos-a-probarBW/776166028_vRawV-L.jpg

Need your advice please. This image was taken with Sinar x/180 Sinaron DB/Sinar 54M DB. Nik Silver Efex Pro was used to convert to B&W. Just three questions :

1) Do I expect to have the same range of tones printing it with an Epson Pro inkjet printer or sending it to Digital Silver Imaging ? Just to have an idea, I dont think I will print this image in particular.

2) Will I have better results taking the pic in B&W, scan it with a good scanner ( i.e. Imacon ) and then print whith either of the above mention alternatives ?

3) Do I need to buy "Digital " large format lenses to obtain better quality with this gear ? I have Sinaron 240mm DB, Super Symmar 210 and Sinaron 90 6.8

Why am I asking this ? Because is too expensive for me to buy a Tech camera to use with my 54M. I have Ebony 45SU and Sinar x and if the quality of the prints are good I can use wide angle lenses without the crop factor of the sensor and dont need to invest in more expensive lenses.

I am not a pro , only an entusiast amateur and I will not have to sell my prints.

Thanks a lot

Luis

[ignatiusjk]

The print in the picture looks ok to be picky the print needs more contrast and maybe printed a 1/4 stop lighter and it would be just as fine as a reg B&W print.

[galupi20]

100% agree ignatiusjk.

Luis

[Lenny Eiger]

1) Do I expect to have the same range of tones printing it with an Epson Pro inkjet printer or sending it to Digital Silver Imaging ? Just to have an idea, I dont think I will print this image in particular.


Of course not. Would you imagine that watercolor paint will paint the same image as oil? No, they are different mediums. One is not 'better' than the other. I is true that inkjet has a longer tonal range, and is in many ways more capable, but what if you don't want such a long tonal range. It is too subjective.

At this point, I wouldn't consider printing on many of the papers that are recommended here. I prefer a mat surface, rich, velvety paper. It makes my images look like I want them to look. But I'm not going to tell anyone they shouldn't print on gloss - that's a subjective decision.

Black and white inks are better than ABW, if sensitivity is your goal. I enjoy them....



2) Will I have better results taking the pic in B&W, scan it with a good scanner ( i.e. Imacon ) and then print whith either of the above mention alternatives ?


I guess you have to define "better". FWIW, an Imacon is not a top-level scanner. If you want all the sharpness, detail and extended range in your neg to show up in your PhotoShop file, find someone with a drum scanner and give it a try. They use PMT (Photo Multiplier Tube) technology that is superior in its abilities than CCD. There are lots of used ones around.



3) Do I need to buy "Digital " large format lenses to obtain better quality with this gear ? I have Sinaron 240mm DB, Super Symmar 210 and Sinaron 90 6.8


No. If you want better capture, use a drum scanner. It will get all the quality out of the neg... they are really sharp.


Lenny