Offbeat, strange, and mystery lenses

[Arne Croell]

The two recent threads on the "Semmar" and the fake/nonfake "Krishna-Symmar" got me thinking: What other strange and offbeat lenses have you seen, owned or heard of? I don't mean just rare, some of those might be relatively well known like, say, Nicola Perscheid lenses. More the ones that initially draw a blank and a question mark when you see them.

Let me start with a pair from my "collection" that I bought off of the German ebay a few years ago, shown below. The Japanese maker is actually well known and still around, but not with regard to any large format lenses: Tamron!

The two "Color-Tamron" f/6.8 lenses in 150mm and 180mm focal lengths, convertible to 260 and 315mm, are apparently Dagor clones (or a reverse Dagor, hard to distinguish from reflections). Designwise, Tamron took a page from the Voigtländer Apo-Lanthar playbook for the front cell mounts, but they were honest enough to just use red and blue stripes thus correctly indicating an achromat. They came with nice felt-lined anodized aluminum push-on back caps and turned and anodized aluminum screw-in front caps with a distinctive design of the Tamron name. Quite a quality appearance. According to the company web site, the Tamron name was registered in 1959. The script style evokes the 60's or early 70's so thats probably when they were made. However, a search on this site or elsewhere either draws a blank or thousands of pages on Tamron 35mm or digital lenses. No relation of Tamron to LF mentioned on their company web site. And so on...

So any mystery lenses you encountered? Or more information on the Tamrons?

[Dan Fromm]

Arne, I have two little mystery lenses, both German.

75/2.8 Anastigmat, with no maker’s name or serial number. Engraved “Anastigmat 1:2,8 / 75 Germany.” In M39x1, stops to f/32. A complete mystery. Sold on eBay as an enlarging lens, which seems unlikely. Unexpected lens design, essentially a Tessar but with three singlets in front of the diaphragm. Seems much like the Vade Mecum’s lens diagrams Sc 004, described in text as a 50/2.8 Schneider S-Xenar; Sc 047 and Ste 023, neither described in text. Vignettes on 2x3 at 40 feet.

180/6.8 Fotokopist Spezial Reproduktions Optik, stops to f/45. Uncoated. Slightly asymmetrical 4/4 double Gauss. Threaded M39x0.75. Found at a camera show. There was a Fotokopist GmbH in Berlin in 1941, also one in Frankfurt am Main in 1940 Fotokopist seems to be a job description as well as the name of a firm. When I tried it out, it shot poorly at distance (flare, mainly).

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Dan

Sorry, I can't help you on the Tamrons, they are complete surprises.

[Arne Croell]

Great, that kind of stuff was what I had in mind. I could find a bit of information(thanks, Mr. Thiele) on the "Fotokopist GmbH" (GmbH is equivalent to LLC) which, you are right, used their process as a name. They were located in Berlin, that is correct, and the trademark name was registered twice, in 1928 and 1954. The product was, obviously, copying machines, but of what kind I don't know.

[Steven Tribe]

It is a mystery to me that Koristka, a professional lens maker and succesful agency for Zeiss, could produce a series of soft "struss" type meniscus lens with the names, small ars, medium ars and large ars. Doomed to failure in the english speaking market. Does anyone know the explanation for the name? I'll look through my odd objectives and see whether I can contribute with a more serious offering!

[Emil Schildt]

It is a mystery to me that Koristka, a professional lens maker and succesful agency for Zeiss, could produce a series of soft "struss" type meniscus lens with the names, small ars, medium ars and large ars. Doomed to failure in the english speaking market. Does anyone know the explanation for the name? I'll look through my odd objectives and see whether I can contribute with a more serious offering!

"ARS" = latin for "ART" ?

[Wayne R. Scott]

My mystery lens is a Hexar Ser. 1 f4.5 21cm Rokuoh-sha. It is mounted in an Ilex Acme No.4 shutter. I bought it for the shutter but I think I will try a few shots with it.

Any body familiar with this lens?

Wayne

[Arne Croell]

My mystery lens is a Hexar Ser. 1 f4.5 21cm Rokuoh-sha. It is mounted in an Ilex Acme No.4 shutter. I bought it for the shutter but I think I will try a few shots with it.

Any body familiar with this lens?

Wayne

Rokuoh-sha was one of the older names of Konica, and they used the name Hexar for cameras and lenses until the end of Konica. According to this article (http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Konica) they stopped using the name Rokuoh-sha in or after 1943, so that helps with dating. Given the age and the f/4.5 its either a Tessar type (most likely) or a high-speed dialyte like the Steinheil Unofocal. That should be easy to distinguish by counting reflections.

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

My mystery lens is a Takumar LF lens, made of quartz and maybe a one off piece, custom made for the Swedish police once for forensic work. Never heard before, that Asahi Pentax made LF lenses. What I could find out about is is here, mainly from the Kanji inscription on the box outside.
http://www.macrolenses.de/ml_detail_sl.php?ObjektiveNr=305

http://www.macrolenses.de/bilder/Quartz_Tak135mm_complete%20box_wp_b.jpg

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

2nd one is a prototype from STEINHEIL, a Super-APROMAT 5.6/300mm barrel lens, high resolution (it reads 180lpm on the box), never found more info about it.
http://www.macrolenses.de/ml_detail_sl.php?ObjektiveNr=309

http://www.macrolenses.de/bilder/IMG_9574k_wp_b.jpg

[David Lindquist]

There was a short report on the Color Tamron line of large format lenses in the Swiss photography magazine "Camera" about 1969-71-72. (I subscribed to this magazine which ceased publication in 1981 starting in 1969; I remember it was in one of my early issues). Being something of a Dagor/Goerz lens fanatic/freak, I was struck by their apparent similarity to the Dagors. In particular they were described as covering 87 degrees stopped down. I kept my eye out for them appearing on the market in the U.S., but never saw any either in stores or in photographic supply house catalogues. Unfortunately when I moved in 2006 to where we live now my run of "Camera" from 1969-81 was one of the things I got rid of. Maybe someone out there still has their collection of this fine publication from those years and could look. The report probably was in a sort of "new products" section.
David Lindquist

[David Lindquist]

I found this described in “Industrial Photographic Catalogue/1966” (copyright 1965). This catalogue was from: Industrial Photographic Products, Inc., 8618 Fenton St., Silver Spring, MD:

“GOERZ SIX IN ONE MULTIFOCUS LENS SET combines high quality double anastigmat lenses with range of six focal lengths all in one shutter (150mm-450mm) for 4 X 5 and 5 X 7 format. Features full color correction, hard coated optics, quick-snap in lens mounts, easy to read lens markings, and leather carrying case, $496. Compur EX/2 sync. shutter 1 sec to 1/200th plus T-B, $79”

There was no illustration of this lens set. I have not come across it in any other catalogues or buying guides from that era. And in particular it is not listed in either my 1965 or 1969 Burke & James catalogues, and B&J seemed to be a distributor of the full Goerz line in those years. I have two price lists from Goerz from about that time, one dated 3-15-67 and one dated 10-10-67. This lens set is not listed on these either. I have a recollection of seeing one listed in Shutterbug Ads some years ago. Has anyone ever seen this product or know more about it?
David Lindquist

[Paul Ewins]

Klaus, it is probably fair to say that Asahi Optical company didn't make LF lenses but did make industrial and medical optical equipment and this is probably the source of this lens rather than the camera division. It is probably one of a number of undocumented "specials" that were just too low volume to appear in the regular catalogs, like the later MF and MF1 microscope cameras.

FWIW, Asahi made a 75/3.5 T-Takumar lens in the 1950s for the Mine Six MF folder (and possibly also used in the Semi Minolta P but labelled as a Promar) so that wouldn't be the only leaf shutter lens they made.

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

Thanks Paul, haven't known this yet!

[Jon Wilson]

The "slip on barrel" sleeve identifies this lens as a JH Dallmeyer f6.3 12x10 3D Patent lens made in London No. 30678. The glass configuration is just like the lens in my Dallmeyer 4D and 5D Patent lens, just smaller. The rear set of lens have 4 notch areas approximate equal distances from the other (cross or X layout). The lens is 3 7/8 inches long and diameter of 2 3/8 inches. I cannot find any reference to a 3D Dallmeyer lens which has a f6.3 aperture and a 12x10 designated coverage. It has an aperture lever with 11, 16, 22, 36, 44 designations.

Attached is picture of the lens and a couple of pictures I took with this lens and my Pacemaker....LOVE that focal plane shutter for these barrel lens.

All assistance is shedding light on this lens is appreciated. Thank you. Jon

[Dan Fromm]

Arne, I was tidying and ran across a couple of semi-mystery lenses I'd forgotten about. I bought all from a seller on Todo Colleccion, I think they came out of a photo-finishing lab's automatic printer. All are in barrel, have a central fixed stop. There's no obvious way to remove cells, if indeed the elements are in cells and not just mounted in the barrel.

Apo-Skopar 1:11/88, 1:11/83, 1:8/73. The first two have lovely separations. They should be heliar types, but I'm having a hard time counting reflections.

Color-Skopar 15.6/69, 1:8/57. They should be tessar types, but again counting isn't easy.

Friedrich Spezial-Corygon f=77, f=90. No aperture engraved, like the others with a fixed stop in the middle. They seem to be triplets, but I wouldn't fight to the death to defend that proposition. Google found only one reference to Spezial Corygon, uninformative.

Cheers,

Dan

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

Dan, I have some of these too (namely the Apo-Skopar, Color-Skopar and Corygon). Are you sure these were used fro printers? I was told for high resolution microfiche blow back.

[Arne Croell]

Arne, I was tidying and ran across a couple of semi-mystery lenses I'd forgotten about. I bought all from a seller on Todo Colleccion, I think they came out of a photo-finishing lab's automatic printer. All are in barrel, have a central fixed stop. There's no obvious way to remove cells, if indeed the elements are in cells and not just mounted in the barrel.

Apo-Skopar 1:11/88, 1:11/83, 1:8/73. The first two have lovely separations. They should be heliar types, but I'm having a hard time counting reflections.

Color-Skopar 15.6/69, 1:8/57. They should be tessar types, but again counting isn't easy.

Friedrich Spezial-Corygon f=77, f=90. No aperture engraved, like the others with a fixed stop in the middle. They seem to be triplets, but I wouldn't fight to the death to defend that proposition. Google found only one reference to Spezial Corygon, uninformative.

Cheers,

Dan

Dan, what are the serial numbers on those Apo-Skopars and Color-Skopars you have? I have at least a 83mm Apo-Skopar listed as 6873900-66874900, 6874901-6875071, and 6883217-6884216 serial no. range, but as an f/8.

Arne

[Dan Fromm]

1:11/88 Apo-Skopar 6360080
1:11/83 Apo-Skopar 6198478
1:8/73 Apo-Skopar 7182170
1:5.6/69 Color-Skopar 7029180
1:8/57 Color-Skopar 6194008

All out of range. Why am I not surprised?

Cheers,

Dan

[Jim Galli]

Here's one (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=45762) that folks have resisted so far.

http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/021502/12Accuplat_1.jpg

Spencer Accuplat. Made by the folks that made the lovely Port - Land lens. I would gamble that it was a no-name goerz product. Goerz was in bed with Spencer at one point. It seemed to be the flare king on the ground glass. Did I mention that in the ad? Maybe that's why no one ever bought it.

[Dan Fromm]

Jim, why do you think there was a connection between Spencer Lens Co. of Buffalo NY and Goerz?

It is true that American Optical Co. of Springfield, MA bought Spencer. See http://www.xmission.com/~psneeley/Personal/AOHistory.htm and http://www.dickwhitney.net/AOEVENTS.pdf AO still exists.

There was a completely unrelated American Optical Company that made cameras and was absorbed into what eventually became ANSCO. See http://www.pacificrimcamera.com/pp/scovill/scovill.htm

But Goerz American Optical Company was founded by Goerz and had a somewhat checkered existence before it was bought and the name extinguished by Schneider.
See http://camerapedia.org/wiki/Goerz and http://books.google.com/books?id=otwsAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA493&lpg=PA493&dq=catalog+OR+products+%22goerz+american+optical+company%22&source=bl&ots=B0GkT1mr_N&sig=PM4HJvShQE7l-o9LfR2FdWaOqlk&hl=en&ei=PkmISrjyM5fKtgeTgt3nDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=catalog%20OR%20products%20%22goerz%20american%20optical%20company%22&f=false

Cheers,

Dan

Lay your cards on the table!

[Jim Galli]

It was the American Optical connection that I probably made the connection with. That and the machining and finish on this lens is so "Goerz-like". Ha ha, I know that made you cringe. Plus the flange thread fits my Goerz Artar's. So, just a sloppy guess. This is how 'internet rumors' get going. :eek: You should buy it Dan so I can quit spreading mis-information about it :D


Jim, why do you think there was a connection between Spencer Lens Co. of Buffalo NY and Goerz?

It is true that American Optical Co. of Springfield, MA bought Spencer. See http://www.xmission.com/~psneeley/Personal/AOHistory.htm and http://www.dickwhitney.net/AOEVENTS.pdf AO still exists.

There was a completely unrelated American Optical Company that made cameras and was absorbed into what eventually became ANSCO. See http://www.pacificrimcamera.com/pp/scovill/scovill.htm

But Goerz American Optical Company was founded by Goerz and had a somewhat checkered existence before it was bought and the name extinguished by Schneider.
See http://camerapedia.org/wiki/Goerz and http://books.google.com/books?id=otwsAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA493&lpg=PA493&dq=catalog+OR+products+%22goerz+american+optical+company%22&source=bl&ots=B0GkT1mr_N&sig=PM4HJvShQE7l-o9LfR2FdWaOqlk&hl=en&ei=PkmISrjyM5fKtgeTgt3nDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=catalog%20OR%20products%20%22goerz%20american%20optical%20company%22&f=false

Cheers,

Dan

Lay your cards on the table!

[Arne Croell]

1:11/88 Apo-Skopar 6360080
1:11/83 Apo-Skopar 6198478
1:8/73 Apo-Skopar 7182170
1:5.6/69 Color-Skopar 7029180
1:8/57 Color-Skopar 6194008

All out of range. Why am I not surprised?

Cheers,

Dan
Fascinating.. The first one is part of a batch of 140 according to the manufacturing lists (6360001-6360140) made in 1963, but no lens name and other information listed. Same for the second one, a batch of 1000 from 1968 (7181568-7182567), although the mount is listed as "Linhof" which usually means a shutter. Was it shuttered? And again no name for the 3rd one, a batch of 1000 from 1967 (7029000-7029999) with "Linhof" mount designation, and the last one is a batch of 85 from 1962 (6194000-6194084), no name, no mount designation.

[Dan Fromm]

Jim, I don't know whether the idea made any headway in the US, but in the UK the threads used for flanges and such were standardized by the turn of the 19th Century. All flanges with the same diameter should fit all lenses with that diameter. Probably too sensible for Rochester, but Spencer was in Buffalo and Goerz AOC was, mainly, in NYC.

That more than one company used the words "American Optical" in its name has caused a lot of confusion.

Arne, the lenses are in barrel, not shutter. I haven't tried dismantling any of them, am not sure that the barrels contain cells. They could have, um, seats and retaining rings holding the elements in place.

When the lenses arrived I couldn't decide how or whether to use them, haven't thought hard about them since. I understand that some people with digital cameras have used Apo-Skopars like mine as fixed aperture macro lenses.

Cheers,

Dan

[cjbroadbent]

I've looked at the list of Goerz Pantars and I see they come in matching pairs of elements.
I have a Goerz Berlin Pantar with a non-matching pair of elements but consecutive serial numbers: 420mm No.402488 and 480mm No.402489.
Is this regular? Should I just swap the elements to change focal length?

[Steven Tribe]

This is the same system as Zeiss Protar VII and VIIa. That is, can be used separately or together. Hence the individual serial numbers on lens cells as the series VII/VIIa protar. This could be the "3 focus set" mentioned in VM. There was also a Pantar casket set.

[Peter K]

Same for the second one, a batch of 1000 from 1968 (7181568-7182567), although the mount is listed as "Linhof" which usually means a shutter. Was it shuttered?
Usually but not allways. Because Linhof made also special cameras not listet in catalogues. Possible for "Q" resp. James Bond?

The smallest Voigtländer in the price-list from 1968 is the Apo Lanthar 100mm mounted in Compur 0MXV followed by the Apo Lanthar and Heliar 150mm up to the Apo Skopar 450mm either in Compound or Compur-electronic 5 FS.

Peter

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

Got a Zeiss Jena 10/100mm TOPOGON lens ("Versuchsmuster", with V-serial number) unused in box and wondered which camera it was designed for. Theodolithe I was told, but I rather think about an early aerial lens? Or for photogrammetry?

Someone enlighten me please....

Thanks,

[Peter K]

Got a Zeiss Jena 10/100mm TOPOGON lens ("Versuchsmuster", with V-serial number) unused in box and wondered which camera it was designed for. Theodolithe I was told, but I rather think about an early aerial lens? Or for photogrammetry?
A distortion-free version was made for Phototheodolithes.

Peter

[Ernest Purdum]

There is a major exception to UK flange standardization. Cooke lenses have a rather coarse thread, and the start is milled away so that ther is no fragile knife edge to get messed up while you are trying to get the lens mounted. TT&H were quite proud of this innovation.

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

Fascinating.. The first one is part of a batch of 140 according to the manufacturing lists (6360001-6360140) made in 1963, but no lens name and other information listed. Same for the second one, a batch of 1000 from 1968 (7181568-7182567), although the mount is listed as "Linhof" which usually means a shutter. Was it shuttered? And again no name for the 3rd one, a batch of 1000 from 1967 (7029000-7029999) with "Linhof" mount designation, and the last one is a batch of 85 from 1962 (6194000-6194084), no name, no mount designation.

These??

[Arne Croell]

These??
Wow! All yours? Do they fit those number ranges?

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

no, not mine, from a friend