View Full Version : How dark a room must a dark room be?
Hey guys,
Just picked up some sheets of Velvia and FP4. I am currently without a dark changing bag as my local camera shop, who I ordered one from in November, have failed to supply. I'm absolutely eager to get started and get some film holders loaded. I have a couple of rooms in my house, to my mind, are pretty dark! So how dark are we talking so as not to fog or ruin my sheets of film? :)
Cheers!
Welly
Gem Singer
19-Jan-2010, 17:34
You need total darkness. so, make it as dark as you possibly can.
Work at night, if possible.
Bill McMannis
19-Jan-2010, 17:36
Welly,
You need TOTAL darkness for loading your film. My darkroom is in an inner room in the lower level of the house with no windows. I have a bit of a lightlock in that the room is U-shaped. Nevertheless, I only load film at night with lights out in the outer room. I also stow my darkroom timer as it has a luminous face and it is amazing how much light the thing generates.
If you have an inner room in a basement without windows, you may be okay, but check for ambient light.
Hope you get your changing bag soon. It will help.
Cheers for the advice chaps! I have a small toilet, which has no windows at all and with the lights off, at night, it's going to be total darkness I would say. I'll check it out tonight and see how it is. I can always stuff some curtains at the bottom of the door where what little light there is may get in.
Just got ghosts and the boogie man to contend with in that room now!
Gem Singer
19-Jan-2010, 18:23
I use a dark color bathroom rug, folded in half, to block off the light at the bottom of the door. Stays in place very nicely.
Greg Lockrey
19-Jan-2010, 18:30
Remember that a pinhole is enough to make an exposure. A cheap way to make a darkroom is to make a tent out of black visqueen and drap it over the doors and windows. My garage served as my darkroom for years hanging visqueen off of the ceiling. Be generous with it's use too.
Total darkness shmottle darkness.
I've loaded film in a "darkroom" that I could actually, just barely, read in. That one wasn't dark enough and I convinced the photo editor of the college paper to finally do something about it. She thought I was coming on to her when I insisted that I could read in the "darkroom" and wanted to show her. She thought I was crazy until I proved to her how much light there was, no one else had ever complained. I think it did fog my higher speed films but even it would probably have been ok with velvia if loaded quickly enough.
My current "loading closet" is the hallway of a dilapidated rv, which at night can be made dark enough I can only see the chrome trim of the shower doorway after my eyes have adjusted for a couple minutes. I have no worries about loading film there, no sign of any fogging, though I am a bit worried about souping sheet film there in open trays which I hope to try tonight.
You have no need for actual and complete darkness, you just need a good approximation. If you can't see your hand in front of your face you are plenty dark. I've souped sheet film open in similar conditions.
BTW, remember that with a pinhole light is directly shining on the film, not good and way brighter than ambient lighting where you can't quite see your hand in front of your face.
Many years ago I heard somewhere that a darkroom was dark enough if, after 10 -15 minutes in the darkroom you couldn't see your hand in front of your face. I have used this as a test since and believe it works great.
I'll try that out tonight then!
One more question, when I open up the box of film (25 sheet box of Ilford FP4 and 10 sheet box of Fuji Velvia), what should I expect? I know there's an inner box and then the film will be foil wrapped. I'm assuming one foil envelope with the film inside? Is it then separated somehow? Excuse this question but this is a pretty big (and being as I bought the film here in NZ, expensive!) step for me :)
IanMazursky
19-Jan-2010, 21:38
Ive been in some large pro lab darkrooms over the years that are not light tight at all.
It didn't fog the film but im not one to try my luck. It amazes me how resilient film is.
I have found that slower speed film (100) can stand extremely dim light for a bit.
I had an old dark bag years ago that well wasn't all that dark :D
It never fogged my film but one day i decided to stick my head in and i promptly threw it out.
I didnt want to try my luck so i bought a calumet dark tent.
I think since the light is so diffused and for a short period of time it has a smaller chance of fogging the film.
To be safe, i would put a thick towel over the gap under the door. Dark bags from paper boxes work great for covering windows and gaps.
I just did my whole basement and i can load film and paper without a problem.
myboysherman
19-Jan-2010, 21:52
Total darkness? I prefer a small visible crack of light leak in around my badly warped bathroom door. When loading film, it provides the perfect 1/5 stop of pre-exposure. And while developing film in my dimroom, I have stuck upon an innovation: Post-Exposure!
I only wish I was good enough to notice the impact of it all.
I would like to know how one keeps time in a pitch black darkroom. Are their audible timers which alert you every 30sec to keep your agitation consistent?
IanMazursky
19-Jan-2010, 22:03
I develop film in a rotary tube. I load the film in a blacked out room into the tubes and then they are light tight.
If you have a local lab that does mural printing, ask them for the dark bags that hold the paper.
I stapled them to the windows and covered the cracks in the doors. The room is pitch black now.
Patterson (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/90328-REG/Paterson_PTP800_Triple_Darkroom_Timer.html) has a 3 clock timer that beeps. I think some of the gar lab timers also count down.
I also read (probably on this forum) of someone who uses an ipod with a timing track. Thats pretty cool!
One way i used to do it before i had the processor was to place the timer under the table.
The light wasn't bright enough and never struck the film. It never fogged but you have to test it.
The same also works if you place the timer on a shelf above the film so the light cant bounce into the tray.
A piece of cardboard under the timer that extends out may work.
Scott Walker
19-Jan-2010, 22:12
Light travels at just under 300,000 kilometers per second........practice your ninja skills and your dark room will not need to be dark at all.
IanMazursky
19-Jan-2010, 22:16
Light travels at just under 300,000 kilometers per second........practice your ninja skills and your dark room will not need to be dark at all.
Hehe, thats hilarious!!! :D Whats a few photons between friends.
Just checked out the room, turned off the lights and I couldn't see my hand. But there is a slight bit of light coming in from around the doorframe, if I'm facing the door. If I'm looking away, can't see a bloomin' thing! But I'll leave it until tonight before I load a few holders. Exciting stuff!
myboysherman
19-Jan-2010, 22:34
I develop film in a rotary tube. I load the film in a blacked out room into the tubes and then they are light tight.
If you have a local lab that does mural printing, ask them for the dark bags that hold the paper.
I stapled them to the windows and covered the cracks in the doors. The room is pitch black now.
Patterson (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/90328-REG/Paterson_PTP800_Triple_Darkroom_Timer.html) has a 3 clock timer that beeps. I think some of the gar lab timers also count down.
I also read (probably on this forum) of someone who uses an ipod with a timing track. Thats pretty cool!
One way i used to do it before i had the processor was to place the timer under the table.
The light wasn't bright enough and never struck the film. It never fogged but you have to test it.
The same also works if you place the timer on a shelf above the film so the light cant bounce into the tray.
A piece of cardboard under the timer that extends out may work.
I'll look up that Paterson timer, but I'm inclined to paint some luminescent marks on this old clock I have and do as you did. I had a disastrous adventure with my 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 pan film effort (wet negs can be so slippery) so when the 4x5 arrived, I ordered some adox ortho to get the hang of things. At first I tried a travel clock with a momentary backlight. Even under redlight, I didn't like fumbling around for it and then shielding it's dim glow from the film. So the clock on a shelf plan is preferable.
Maybe velcro for the curtain would be better than staples for my bathroom/darkroom. I'm pretty sure that stapling a black plastic sheet over our bathroom doorway will irritate my wife.
IanMazursky
19-Jan-2010, 22:48
I'll look up that Paterson timer, but I'm inclined to paint some luminescent marks on this old clock I have and do as you did. I had a disastrous adventure with my 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 pan film effort (wet negs can be so slippery) so when the 4x5 arrived, I ordered some adox ortho to get the hang of things. At first I tried a travel clock with a momentary backlight. Even under redlight, I didn't like fumbling around for it and then shielding it's dim glow from the film. So the clock on a shelf plan is preferable.
Maybe velcro for the curtain would be better than staples for my bathroom/darkroom. I'm pretty sure that stapling a black plastic sheet over our bathroom doorway will irritate my wife.
Velcro will work but i would recommend that you either staple it to the plastic or sew it on.
I have never had any luck getting Velcro to stick to plastics long term.
Wet film is definitely a PIA. The same with loading my 12x20 negs. Dropping a $15 sheets once was one to many.
Early last year i bought an infra red monocle and I havet looked back. I now see the light :D Pardon the pun but they really do work.
They do get a bit uncomfortable in a long session and they are not good for close viewing. But they get the job done without fogging or bruised knees!
Well, that's two film holders loaded. Wasn't too painful and it was absolutely pitch black, so with all being well they should be fine. I must use that room to transfer my 120 film to the developing tank!
So I'm all pretty much set for a couple of shots now!
Robert Hughes
20-Jan-2010, 10:00
My darkroom is the bathroom. When I turn off the lights, it seems like utter blackness, but after a couple minutes I can see light from underneath the door, and a phosphorescent glowing nose on the toilet's pet bear. But it doesn't seem to be enough light to make any difference. Reciprocity failure is your friend here. If there's enough light to see your hand (or the developing trays), there's too much light for negative work, otherwise you're probably OK.
Last night I processed prints, using a safelight I'd had in storage. Whooee, there was lots of light to work with, yet no fogging.
bvstaples
20-Jan-2010, 13:16
Just checked out the room, turned off the lights and I couldn't see my hand. But there is a slight bit of light coming in from around the doorframe, if I'm facing the door. If I'm looking away, can't see a bloomin' thing! But I'll leave it until tonight before I load a few holders. Exciting stuff!
You need to let your eyes get dark adapted, which takes anywhere from 2 to 15 minutes. When you first walk in the room and turn off the light, it's amazingly pitch black; after about two minutes you'd be surprised at how much light is coming in from every conceivable crack.
rdenney
20-Jan-2010, 14:07
Some points I didn't see addressed:
1. It takes up to 15 minutes to become full dark adapted depending on where you start. You can't judge darkness until that time has gone by.
2. If you can see a line of light around the door frame, it can see you. Turning your back to it might be enough if it is dim enough.
3. I have loaded slow film into backs many times with my Gralab timer glowing in the same room, with no ill effects. Color transparency film might show the effects of very dim exposure more than negative materials--my darkroom experience is with negative materials.
4. I hate changing bags for sheet film. The bag is always in the way. I would use a changing tent, though at present I use an inner closet, at night, when the room outside the closet is very dark.
5. The boxes of film I've used have three box components--a top, a bottom, and an inner box. Once pulling the inner box out of the box bottom, the film is in an envelope. Kodak used foil with sealed edges; Ilford used folded-over plastic, which I preferred. The key to keeping things organized properly is to remember that if the notches are on the top edge (holding the film in portrait orientation) and on the upper right corner, the emulsion is facing you.
6. When I developed black and white film in my own darkroom, I used deep tanks and metal hangers. I used a Gralab darkroom timer, and never worried about the luminous markings on it. Using that timer, I could keep track of my agitation cycles and also could hear the click of when the timer stopped. I would set the development time on the clock before loading the hangers, pre-soak the film in a water bath for a slow count of 30, put the film in the developer, and start the clock. When I used an acid stop bath at all, I used a very weak one and counted to 30 again. (I once reticulated the grain of film by using too strong a stop bath and was leery of acid stop bath after that time, but then I also mixed my fixer one-shot using Kodafix and thus didn't worry about contaminating the fixer with developer). I would then only have to reset the time for the fixing step. Only the developer timing is really critical in my view. The fixer just needs to be about twice as long as what it takes to clear the film.
(On that luminous dial, it is true that the luminosity would diminish quite a bit while I was loading the hangers, which I did with my back to the timer on the dry side of my darkroom.)
7. I have used an electronic metronome set to mm. 60 (one beat per second) to count various process in the darkroom, but mostly during print-making so that I could keep my eyes on the print rather than the timer.
Rick "who always has a few metronomes lying around" Denney
Robert Hughes
20-Jan-2010, 14:41
7. I have used an electronic metronome set to mm. 60 (one beat per second) to count various process in the darkroom, but mostly during print-making so that I could keep my eyes on the print rather than the timer.
Can't stand metronomes. I usually have "Poker Face" or some other disco blather running thru my head at 120 bpm. And if I've been video editing recently, I can "see" the timecode in my head pretty close to dead on.
After all, there's not much difference between 7:25 and 7:35 in the soup, is there? How many negatives have you ruined by counting in your head?
You need to let your eyes get dark adapted, which takes anywhere from 2 to 15 minutes. When you first walk in the room and turn off the light, it's amazingly pitch black; after about two minutes you'd be surprised at how much light is coming in from every conceivable crack.
Ah well, we'll see if my film is ruined then I suppose! But I was in there for some time and literally I couldn't see a thing, although felt strangely capable of operating in the dark.
I'm going to get a plastic or cloth sheet to hang over the door, just to get the any last drips of light out of the room for next time though.
Early last year i bought an infra red monocle and I havet looked back. I now see the light :D Pardon the pun but they really do work.
Is this one of those Gen1 night vision setups with an IR illuminater, or is it something thats made just for working with film? I'd never heard of doing this but I've been out of film photography for over a decade. I considered cutting down my own film and working with larger formats (7x11 looks interesting) and this seems like it would be a real film-saver!
rdenney
20-Jan-2010, 15:02
Ah well, we'll see if my film is ruined then I suppose! But I was in there for some time and literally I couldn't see a thing, although felt strangely capable of operating in the dark.
If you could not see anything in there at all at the end of your loading session, you should be fine.
Rick "noting that eyes are considerably more sensitive than film" Denney
Jack Dahlgren
20-Jan-2010, 16:37
Some points I didn't see addressed:
5. The boxes of film I've used have three box components--a top, a bottom, and an inner box. Once pulling the inner box out of the box bottom, the film is in an envelope. Kodak used foil with sealed edges; Ilford used folded-over plastic, which I preferred. The key to keeping things organized properly is to remember that if the notches are on the top edge (holding the film in portrait orientation) and on the upper right corner, the emulsion is facing you.
Kodak uses a thin cardboard sheet on top and bottom of the stack (inside the envelope). You can tell the cardboard from the film because it doesn't have any notches.
If I open the wrong end of the package I usually pull the whole stack out and put it back in so that the notches are on the open side. Then I take a sheet in right hand - emulsion up - and the notch will be easily detectable with my right index finger.
Film holders are usually stacked empty with the slides - light side out- pulled halfway out so all I need to do is slip in the film and slide it shut.
If you find yourself fumbling about and cursing, then stop. Take a sheet into daylight and practice with it until you are confident you can do it in the dark. It is not difficult once you have done it a couple of times.
Robert Hughes
20-Jan-2010, 16:51
Take a sheet into daylight and practice with it until you are confident you can do it in the dark.
And, of course, this does not have to be a valuable unexposed sheet - you can work with any old processed and rejected sheet also.
myboysherman
20-Jan-2010, 20:35
Some points I didn't see addressed:
The key to keeping things organized properly is to remember that if the notches are on the top edge (holding the film in portrait orientation) and on the upper right corner, the emulsion is facing you.
Rick "who always has a few metronomes lying around" Denney
Where were you a month ago? Almost everywhere I looked, the answer was always the same, "notch on the top right." No mention of portrait vs. landscape. No distinction between right side of the top edge OR top side of the right edge.
The articles section of this site includes a nice diagram and when I got my box of film, it conveniently provided a drawing on the outside of the box. So I wasn't worried long, but it was pretty annoying (and comical at the same time) to get that "top right" answer.
JRFrench
20-Jan-2010, 21:25
Ah well, we'll see if my film is ruined then I suppose! But I was in there for some time and literally I couldn't see a thing, although felt strangely capable of operating in the dark.
I'm going to get a plastic or cloth sheet to hang over the door, just to get the any last drips of light out of the room for next time though.
Try getting some draft or window sealing foam tape, and putting it around the door frame, then use a towel for the bottom of the door. That way you can probably use it during the day. I recently upgraded my darkroom for daytime use and its most welcome. Although I still do all my loading in a dark bag, I find it fairly easy and that way I am guaranteed dark.
Where did you get your film from? WPS? I see they are trying to sell some very overpriced very expired slide film on trademe, good luck to them lol. I just did an order from B and H a couple of weeks ago, next time you want to get some film let me know and I might be able to sort out shipping or combining or something. I get my orders sent to a friend int he states who then forwards it to me, save about 40-50usd on B an H's shipping prices then.
Jack Dahlgren
20-Jan-2010, 22:18
Where were you a month ago? Almost everywhere I looked, the answer was always the same, "notch on the top right." No mention of portrait vs. landscape. No distinction between right side of the top edge OR top side of the right edge.
The top right means the top right. Right top would be the right top. I don't see how you could possibly be confused. :)
Robert Hughes
21-Jan-2010, 09:08
I don't see how you could possibly be confused. :) Of course, in landscape, it's bottom right. So - top right = bottom right. Unless you have a left-handed camera back. In which case it's bottom left. Got that? :p
Jack Dahlgren
21-Jan-2010, 11:55
Of course, in landscape, it's bottom right. So - top right = bottom right. Unless you have a left-handed camera back. In which case it's bottom left. Got that? :p
No. It is not bottom right. It is right bottom. This is where you are confused.
Top right - Right bottom - Bottom Left - Left top, all OK
Right top - bottom right - left bottom - top left, all bad.
Of course once you have done it once it (either wrong or right - or should that be left or right) then the words don't matter at all and it is about as interesting as a discussion of which sock to put on first.:)
Stephane
21-Jan-2010, 13:05
According to this guy (follow the link bellow), a darkroom should be painted white.
He's got a very interesting thread there on arctic life.
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=58813&page=2
EdWorkman
21-Jan-2010, 13:12
How much dark should a darkroom park
if a darkroom could park dark
Paint the walls white
Shoot, I tend to close my eyes when i work in "total" darkness loading film- must be to concenate. Imagine my recent chagrin when , after loading film, I opened my eyes and found that I had not turned off the safelight. There was a slight fog on the outer frame of 120 on steel reels, but no massive hooror.- who knew?
Getting old is not for sissies
Robert Hughes
21-Jan-2010, 13:15
But how do you paint a dark room white? It's dark in there!:confused:
Jack Dahlgren
21-Jan-2010, 13:35
But how do you paint a dark room white? It's dark in there!:confused:
Start at the top right corner and work your way around.
fsibold
21-Jan-2010, 20:30
If it's the first time you load film holders, read this first :
http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm
If it's the first time you load film holders, read this first :
http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm
Yeah, eventually found that link. Was very useful! Loading film is far easier than I thought it would be. I've got about 36 sheets to use up now :)
John Kasaian
22-Jan-2010, 00:03
I could be wrong but I think color film is less forgiving than B&W. My B&W dark room is as dark as I can make it (my daughter's bathroom with a piece of cardboard wedged over the window and the hallway outside the door kept dark and I only use it at night after everyone else has gone to bed.
I can't say that I can keep 100% of the dark in there but I haven't had any problem with fogged film so it works good enough for me--but then I only soup B&W and that is in a Unicolor processor so I'm basically in the dark only to load and unload holders. For printing I have a few GE Guide Lamps (night lights) which are no longer being made and when they go bad I have a short string of small red LED Christmas lights I bought on sale for use when printing on Slavich paper.
Those red LED lights sure give the ol' dark room a downright jolly holiday atmosphere! :D
Ian Leith
20-Feb-2010, 17:16
A SIMPLE test;
place a sheet of photo paper on your loading counter, place a solid object on it, leave for 30 min..
process. IF YOU DO NOT SEE THE OUTLINE of the object... its dark
Ian
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