Developing 8x10 at the kitchen sink

[John NYC]

I've searched around quite a bit and can't seem to find the answer to this... I have a small apartment and must do daylight developing (such as in a Paterson tank for roll film) at my kitchen sink due to constraints of space. My bathroom is not going to work.

What I was wondering as I get into 8x10 and would like to develop at home... would it work to develop one sheet at time in a Paterson 5-reel tank? Would it fit? Has anyone tried this?

John

[Pete Roody]

Why not try BTZS tubes? They have a video showing how they work on: http://www.viewcamerastore.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_74&products_id=790

[jeroldharter]

John, buy a Jobo 3005 drum and a manual or electric roller base. That would be the easiest way.

[SteveKarr]

The BTZS tubes are you answer. Look no farther...

And they are a zillion cheaper than a Jobo for a beginner in 810. Save your money for film.

[jeroldharter]

I use BTZS tubes myself. They will work but are a little fiddly for use in daylight at a kitchen sink. You will need to load up the developer in the dark and make sure that the tubes stay up right so no developer touches the film. Subdued light would be best and you will still need a couple of 11x14 trays for stop and fix. So I thought the Jobo would be more foolproof and compact. There is a good video I saw recently of a guy using a Jobo expert drum on a motorized roller base for processing sheet film.

[John NYC]

Should have mentioned... I've looked at the BTZS tubes before, but the demo on youtube seems to show them using trays for stop bath, fixer and wash. I simply don't have the room to do that. I also would rather load the film in the daylight tank in a changing tent. With the BTZS, I'm going to have to wait until night to switch the developer caps in my bathroom. Not very convenient. What I need is a Paterson style tank for 8x10, where I can do all the chemicals in one tank. Is the Jobo 3005 basically that? I'd have to buy all this used right as they are out of business?

[ic-racer]

You CAN develop the sheet film in a roll film tank. Remember to use the center column. You will have to try it to see if it gives even development. I did single 8x10 in a similar Jobo 1500 series drum for a while.

Now I use the 2800 Jobo print drums.

I suspect I have $25,000 equipment but I can't afford a Jobo 3005 tank (or refuse to buy one because of the inflated price :) )

[dsphotog]

Are you planning on using the Patterson tank upright or with rotary agitation?
Rotary would use alot less chem.
If you are OK doing one sheet at a time....
You could also pick up an 8x10 Unicolor or Beseler print drum & motor base....Cheap.

[John Kasaian]

I use a Unicolor processor and a Unicolor paper (print) drum. Check out Graywolf Phillips aricle on the LF Home Page by clicking on the blue banner at the top of this page. He soups 4x5 but the drums work just as well with 8x10 film. You can soup two sheets at a time in an 11x14 drum. About $30-40 should get you the whole shebang off of ebay. I wouldn't use a processor for prints though---heck, I've got to see the print magically appear in a tray or it just isn't fun!

[John NYC]

Are you planning on using the Patterson tank upright or with rotary agitation?
Rotary would use alot less chem.
If you are OK doing one sheet at a time....
You could also pick up an 8x10 Unicolor or Beseler print drum & motor base....Cheap.

I was thinking about doing it the same way as with roll film, meaning yeah lots of chemistry. But at $6 per neg for my lab to develop...

[John NYC]

I use a Unicolor processor and a Unicolor paper (print) drum. Check out Graywolf Phillips aricle on the LF Home Page by clicking on the blue banner at the top of this page. He soups 4x5 but the drums work just as well with 8x10 film. You can soup two sheets at a time in an 11x14 drum. About $30-40 should get you the whole shebang off of ebay. I wouldn't use a processor for prints though---heck, I've got to see the print magically appear in a tray or it just isn't fun!

I will check out that article. Thank you.

I would LOVE to be able to have a darkroom and do tray development. But I live in Manhattan, which means I have a tiny, tiny, tiny apartment. Unless one lives here, it probably doesn't compute in people's minds about how little room there actually is in the kitchen!

[John NYC]

This looks promising!

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=30099

[Allen in Montreal]

John,

Just a thought to consider.

A jobo 3005 (5 sheets per run) may be cheaper in the long run than most other systems.
The cost of chemicals and the time consumed to process in a single sheet drums will, over the long term, off set the additional startup cost of buying a Jobo 3005 and a roller base.

If you use the kitchen sink as the holding tank to keep your bottles in a water bath at 68 degrees, and provide a flow of rinse water, you only need two feet of counter space to place the roller and drum.

Ideally, you could get a small section (just a few inches high) of pipe that fits in the sink drain (this may need a few layers of good tape to make it sit and hold in the drain well) to allow the flow of water from the taps and not overfill the sink and provide constant access to a liquid exhaust route.

Being right handed, I would hope for that 2 feet of counter space to be on the left side of the kitchen sink, but I am sure you will get use to it quickly if it is on the right side of the sink.

[jeroldharter]

This looks promising!

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=30099

I have tried various things like that but you run into problems. You have to store all of the crap that you improvise, clean it, dry it, etc. You have to figure out how to sew in this case. What kind of threat will dry easily and not absorb any chemicals? In the end, you spend your time focused on the method rather than photography. If your budget is really low, go the home-made route and enjoy the improvisation.

If you have the money and want to get going with photography, get the Jobo. They are expensive, but get the job done very well. They take up relatively little space and are easy to keep clean. You have to be a little careful drying them but it is not a big deal. The lid keeps the inside dust free. You can do the entire processing and even washing in the Jobo drum. If you want a water bath, you should get or make the rollers - otherwise you can buy a used Beseler or Unicolor drum roller and partially automate things. Also, the Jobo requires minimal film handling and therefore minimal scratching or fumbling. And for 8x10 you can process as many as 5 sheets at once which is impressive for the kitchen sink in daylight.

[robert j fallis]

somewhere on the web there is a design for a daylight development tube, made of plastic waste pipe, it's for 5x4 but it should scale up. there easy to make, I've a couple, and use them for pan film,

bob

[Patrick Dixon]

You can develop a single 8x10 sheet at a time in a Paterson Orbital. Load in the dark, then you just need space to rotate it, and to pour chemicals in and out. It can easily be done at a kitchen sink.

[William McEwen]

Your question leads me to conclude you've ruled out tray processing in the loo?

[John NYC]

Thank you for all this input. It is really appreciated!

A couple things to clarify about my available facilities, such as they are...

The bathroom flat out won't work. I don't have a tub. I have a shower that has very sensitive (and expensive!) limestone all over it. I can't even use regular cleaning supplies in there or it will be damaged. So, the thought of ruining my bathroom to save a little money on developing it out of the question. The bathroom sink and vanity is about 1.75 feet square and made of the same limestone. There is about 4 inches of drain space around the sink. The available floor space in the bathroom to stand there is about 6 square feet. You can't close the door behind you without moving to one side. So, there is simply no way to do anything in the bathroom.

The kitchen. I have a sink that is 21 inches, by 16.5 inches and 7 inches deep. My kitchen floor is made of the same absorbent limestone as the bathroom. I have spilled something as simple as orange juice on it and it has left marks that cannot be removed. So, spilling any chemical on the floor is just not an option. Whatever solution I have cannot ever drip anything on the kitchen floor even for a moment. The counterspace beside the sink that I can use to put *everything* I'd need is 2 feet by 2 feet. And the cabinets start 17 inches above the countertop.

The rest of the apartment is also out of the question (hardwood floors everywhere) and filled with furniture. We are talking about a VERY small apartment here folks! I'd love to have a bigger place, but as this one costs three times as much as my sister's five bedroom house in a more economical part of the country, I simply can't afford more.

So, this is why I need a solution that can be done entirely in the sink (no spills allowed) in the daylight. My other option is just to spend $6 per sheet and take it to the lab, which is sounding better and better!

What is the measurement of the Jobo? Would it fit less than 2 ft. x 2ft. by 1.4ft (height) space?

Same question for the Paterson orbital?

Again, many thanks to all for helping me work through this.

[Allen in Montreal]

........


So, this is why I need a solution that can be done entirely in the sink (no spills allowed) in the daylight. My other option is just to spend $6 per sheet and take it to the lab, which is sounding better and better!


Ouch, that might cut into your film budget. :mad:
[/QUOTE]


.....
What is the measurement of the Jobo? Would it fit less than 2 ft. x 2ft. by 1.4ft (height) space?.........



I think it will work, I will set it up in my kitchen and take a quick snap and some measures for you later tonight.

[John NYC]

Or maybe what I should do is look into if there are any places in the city where I can pay to rent darkroom space by the hour. Going to Google...

[John NYC]

Like this maybe... $11 per hour with a two hour minimum and I have a full darkroom at my disposal!

EDIT: Just called. They don't have space to do large format in their bays!!! The problem is Manhattan-wide! ;-)

[John NYC]

I think it will work, I will set it up in my kitchen and take a quick snap and some measures for you later tonight.

Great! Thank you!

[Allen in Montreal]

John,
I hope this helps.
It requires about 16 inches by 16 inches of counter space and a height of 16 inches. If the counters are that sensitive, I would get a thick absorbent towel to use as a throw rug under the setup. I rarely spill anything more than a few drops when I pour with a funnel as the drum spins. My center spout for the sink drain is too short for a kitchen sink but my darkroom sink is only 6 inches deep so the drain pipe I use only is about 4 inches tall.


http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5599/7402x.jpg (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/7402x.jpg/)

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8119/7403x.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/7403x.jpg/)


Based on my setup, but I used the kitchen sink in my first apartment, it works.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/51/7405x.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/7405x.jpg/)

[John NYC]

Allen, thanks for going to that trouble! It looks like it might work. Though the 16 inch height requirement is going to be if-fy. What is the brand of motorized base you have there?

[John NYC]

...you can buy a used Beseler or Unicolor drum roller and partially automate things.

Jerold, if I go the Jobo way that you and Allen have suggested, do you know what the smallest base would be given my space restrictions detailed in my earlier post?

Thanks,

John

[jeroldharter]

Jerold, if I go the Jobo way that you and Allen have suggested, do you know what the smallest base would be given my space restrictions detailed in my earlier post?

Thanks,

John

The height of the contraption is under 13 inches and about 17.5 inches long.

For spills, you could put the whole thing in a 20x24 tray on the counter to contain any dribbles.

[Allen in Montreal]

Allen, thanks for going to that trouble! It looks like it might work. Though the 16 inch height requirement is going to be if-fy. What is the brand of motorized base you have there?

My pleasure, there have been a few guys here who have helped me a great deal, least I can do.
I have the CDN version of the unicolor roller.




.......

For spills, you could put the whole thing in a 20x24 tray on the counter to contain any dribbles.

A good plan too, turned the long way, a 16x20 would do the trick too if the 20x24 tray is too big for you.

You could save some height is you got the Jobo rollers and manually rolled it, but for consistency over the long run, you are better off with the roller base like Jerold or I have shown.
You have the space to make it work.

[jeroldharter]

My pleasure, there have been a few guys here who have helped me a great deal, least I can do.
...

Very true. I have been the recipient of a lot of good advice and generosity here.

[John NYC]

Very true. I have been the recipient of a lot of good advice and generosity here.

Yes, thank you both, and to the others also. This forum is really terrific. What did people do 20 years ago when they were learning this stuff? It must have taken forever to get the inside info on everything!

[JR Steel]

Hi John, Here is a link to a photographer in LA. He is processing 4x5 but I thought you might pick up some pointers. It is long but it is basically the way I'm doing my film and it works. BTW, Michael is a wonderful photographer. Check out his work.

http://michaelegordon.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/how-to-video-daylight-sheet-film-4x5-development-2/

[jeroldharter]

Hi John, Here is a link to a photographer in LA. He is processing 4x5 but I thought you might pick up some pointers. It is long but it is basically the way I'm doing my film and it works. BTW, Michael is a wonderful photographer. Check out his work.

http://michaelegordon.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/how-to-video-daylight-sheet-film-4x5-development-2/

That is the video I was talking about. I could not remember where I saw it.

Notice that he has a relatively nice looking motor. I don't use mine but just went up to give it a whirl since I had it out for the pics. Mine is an old used one that I picked up but never used. I filled the drum with 1000 ml of water and the motor bogged down and would not rotate the drum. I tried it on the manual Jobo roller base and it worked fine.

[Patrick Dixon]

The Paterson Orbital is less than 12" by 10" and less than 6" high. It's basically a light-proof tray with pour-in and pour-out points to change chemicals. There are manual and motorised versions - I'm not sure whether the motor works with US 110V mains as AFAIK they were only ever made for the European market (although you can buy them on eBay second hand).

eg: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PATERSON-ORBITAL-PROCESSOR-PLUS-MOTOR-DRIVE-FOR-5X4-NEG_W0QQitemZ320471916365

One advantage, is that they use relative little chemicals per 'fill'. As little as 70ml depending on your technique.

[John NYC]

That is the video I was talking about. I could not remember where I saw it.


Thanks, JR and Jerold. I will check this out!

[John NYC]

The Paterson Orbital is less than 12" by 10" and less than 6" high. It's basically a light-proof tray with pour-in and pour-out points to change chemicals. There are manual and motorised versions - I'm not sure whether the motor works with US 110V mains as AFAIK they were only ever made for the European market (although you can buy them on eBay second hand).

eg: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PATERSON-ORBITAL-PROCESSOR-PLUS-MOTOR-DRIVE-FOR-5X4-NEG_W0QQitemZ320471916365

One advantage, is that they use relative little chemicals per 'fill'. As little as 70ml depending on your technique.

Thanks, Patrick. Another good idea that I will look into!

[Ari]

John,
You are getting excellent advice here; I just wanted to add that I have a Jobo two-reel tank for 4x5 (stands about 12" when upright), and I hand-roll it. I never got around to buying the roller, so I partially fill the sink with temperate water and let the tank's buoyancy do most of the work. A few flicks of the finger will keep the tank rolling steadily and every minute I change the direction of rotation by flipping the tank over.

I've always had very good results this way, and 12 negs are done inside of 20 minutes.

It's a more expensive solution than something entirely home-made, but over time the tank will pay for itself. It uses a minimum of chemistry and it fits easily in a large changing bag.
Good luck.

[Bob McCarthy]

Maybe this has already mentioned. Appologies if so...

A sink is not necessary to develop film, only to wash film. Any darkened room (I used a spare bedroom for a number of years in the past) that has room for a table can work.

Tray developing can be done easily then with a final tray being a deep sided holding tray with holding water to move to the sink (shower) for washing.

I covered the table with a poly backed absorbent fabric to catch the inevitable splash or drip.

It was workable in the days before I had a darkroom.

bob

[tim o'brien]

For your environment, I would start with a Unicolor drum and motor. If and when you find your shooting style and volume decree a decrease in processing time, spring for the Jobo. I process all my 8x10 and 5x7 in Unicolor drums. It uses a minimum of chemicals and gives you ultimate flexibility in process variations. My 4x5 is done in a Jobo tank (6 sheets) and my 3x4/2x3 are done in Patterson System4 tanks with home made inner tubes.

tim in san jose

[Daniel_Buck]

I use a unidrum roller and a few 8x10 print drums, developing in/beside my kitchen sink. And load the film in my changing tent. I don't have enough room to setup a darkroom for enlarging like I used to, so I just scan in the film for now.

It's a little slow, developing one 8x10 at a time, but I don't really shoot that great amount of film, usually only a few shots per outing, so it's ok.

[John NYC]

This has been a great thread. I have now bought a Unicolor roller during this whole discussion as a good looking one popped up on ebay.

But I have run into a different issue, I cannot find anyone to take used fixer in NYC (or the amalgam if you reduce it yourself using steel wool). Living in NYC and understanding exactly what the water situation is like and how the Fresh Kills landfill works, you do get concerned about contributing to this problem in such a populated area. I've asked my lab (where I spend a LOT of money) if they would take small quantities from me and process them but they discreetly refused.

I also have a couple other concerns about the feasibility of developing at home that I am trying to address but that do not make sense to ask about here.

So, until I can sort these things, what I am going to look for first is darkroom rental space to learn in. If anyone knows any here in NYC that can be rented by the hour or on a time-share basis, that would be great. The best option I have seen so far is just signing up for a class or private instruction that would then allow me the use of the facilities. It seems to be getting harder and harder to find a way into the traditions of photography as we now move headlong into digital.

[Bruce A Cahn]

It can be done in trays after dark with just window shades.

[John NYC]

It can be done in trays after dark with just window shades.

Possibly in some cases, but if you read some of my longer posts on this thread, you will understand that is not practical in my apartment. Plus there is a street lamp at eye level outside of one of the windows. The apartment's kitchen is just a corner of the main room and is open.

[Pete Roody]

But I have run into a different issue, I cannot find anyone to take used fixer in NYC (or the amalgam if you reduce it yourself using steel wool). Living in NYC and understanding exactly what the water situation is like and how the Fresh Kills landfill works, you do get concerned about contributing to this problem in such a populated area. I've asked my lab (where I spend a LOT of money) if they would take small quantities from me and process them but they discreetly refused.

So, until I can sort these things, what I am going to look for first is darkroom rental space to learn in. If anyone knows any here in NYC that can be rented by the hour or on a time-share basis, that would be great. The best option I have seen so far is just signing up for a class or private instruction that would then allow me the use of the facilities. It seems to be getting harder and harder to find a way into the traditions of photography as we now move headlong into digital.

I believe Print Space is still open: http://www.printspacenyc.com/

You can rent one of the color rooms for b&w film developing. Bring some gaffers tape because I have never seen a rental darkroom that has a light tight room.

CCNY (Camera Club of New York) also has darkrooms for rent.

http://www.cameraclubny.org/facilities.html

As far as dumping used fixer in the drain, you don't have to worry since most of it will end up on the Jersey Shore. Jersey invites polluters. That is why they call it the "Stinky State". :)

[Pete Roody]

John,

I had the same issue as you a few years ago and after getting frustrated with darkroom rentals in nyc i started sending my lf film to Duggal for processing. I still printed at home. You don't, need a darkroom to print alternative formats. Duggal uses XTOL in tanks (dip and dunk) and they will do custom (+/-) processing. Their prices are reasonable (~$5 per 8x10 sheet).

Now I can create a darkroom in my kitchen with blackout material and velcro so I can tray process for everything up to 8x20.

Pete

[David de Gruyl]

Duggal uses XTOL in tanks (dip and dunk) and they will do custom (+/-) processing. Their prices are reasonable (~$5 per 8x10 sheet).

Any idea what they charge for 8x10 E-6?

[Pete Roody]

Any idea what they charge for 8x10 E-6?

I don't have Duggal's price list handy. From memory, I believe they are a little higher for color than b&w. L&I is another good lab if you are looking for color processing. L&I is probably less expensive than Duggal for color. http://landiphotolabs.com/homepage.html

[David de Gruyl]

I don't have Duggal's price list handy. From memory, I believe they are a little higher for color than b&w. L&I is another good lab if you are looking for color processing. L&I is probably less expensive than Duggal for color. http://landiphotolabs.com/homepage.html

Thanks, I had not heard of them.

[John NYC]

I believe Print Space is still open: http://www.printspacenyc.com/

You can rent one of the color rooms for b&w film developing. Bring some gaffers tape because I have never seen a rental darkroom that has a light tight room.

CCNY (Camera Club of New York) also has darkrooms for rent.

http://www.cameraclubny.org/facilities.html

As far as dumping used fixer in the drain, you don't have to worry since most of it will end up on the Jersey Shore. Jersey invites polluters. That is why they call it the "Stinky State". :)

Thanks muchly. I will look into the first place. The second place, I think you have to be a member? Membership costs something close to $2K per year as I recall.

[John NYC]

I don't have Duggal's price list handy. From memory, I believe they are a little higher for color than b&w. L&I is another good lab if you are looking for color processing. L&I is probably less expensive than Duggal for color. http://landiphotolabs.com/homepage.html

I'm at Duggal once a week! Yes, this is what I have been doing for 35mm, MF and 4x5 all last year. I've taken my first four 8x10s to them also. They usually do a pretty good job. $6 a sheet for 8x10 b&w with no discount.

[John NYC]

Any idea what they charge for 8x10 E-6?

Same as b&w... $6.

[David de Gruyl]

Same as b&w... $6.

That is a pretty good price. I was expecting somewhere north of $12.

[Pete Roody]

Duggal will usually discount 10% if you have more than 15 negs.

[David de Gruyl]

Any problems with scratches? I remember issues ... wow... 16 years ago, but I am sure that was isolated.

[jeroldharter]

...

But I have run into a different issue, I cannot find anyone to take used fixer in NYC (or the amalgam if you reduce it yourself using steel wool). Living in NYC and understanding exactly what the water situation is like and how the Fresh Kills landfill works, you do get concerned about contributing to this problem in such a populated area. I've asked my lab (where I spend a LOT of money) if they would take small quantities from me and process them but they discreetly refused...


Although a reasonable concern, I doubt that you will generate major environmental problems in your kitchen sink processing a few sheets at a time. From your lab's perspective, I doubt they want to lose your business and gain your darkroom effluent so I can't blame them on that issue. Just be as judicious as you can with chemical volumes. Others here know a lot about these things and can chime in.

[Daniel Stone]

@ John NYC,

I've just started shooting 8x10, and developed my first sheets TODAY!

I used the same 2551 drum that I use for 4x5(2 reels), but only being able to develop 1 sheet of 8x10 at a time can be limiting.

thankfully, I use efke 25 and HC-110 or 510 pyro, so my dev. times are short.

I'm in the reverese situation as you, I have access to a bathroom, but I have to have it packed up and leave it spotless when I'm done.

I use a unicolor self-reversing motor base with the drum, and its a very nice combination. Kind of that "set it, and forget it" mentality. Sometimes I actually do forget it :p. thankfully only on the washing step(multiple changes of water at 2min intervals(10 changes=20mins total wash time)

300ml of chemistry for each step(including washes).
just make sure to keep the emulsion side facing in :).

-Dan