Wetplate darkbox shroud/camera bellows liner replacement fabric found

[Joe Smigiel]

I've found a replacement for the shroud/bellows material Freestyle and Porter's used to sell. It is called BK5 fabric (http://www.thorlabs.com/thorProduct.cfm?partNumber=BK5) and is available from Thor Labs. It comes 60" wide x 3 yds long for $44.20 USD. Other continuous lengths can be specified. The material is 0.005" thick making it lightweight and flexible. I tried to stretch and scratch it, but it resisted that minor abuse and seemed pretty sturdy.

I requested a sample last week and they sent one to me very quickly. It is very similar in weight and flexibility to the old stuff sold by Freestyle and Porter's. The rubberized side is a bit shinier than the old fabric, but it should work well.

I tested it by exposing a piece in contact with some photo paper in a contact printing frame. For the first test, I stuck the frame about 2" from a set of UV BLB lamps in my handmade exposure unit for about 5 minutes. After developing the print, the weave pattern of the fabric was discernible but the fabric only let through enough light/UV for it to be a very light gray while the unprotected area went black immediately.

I ran a second test exposed in the contact frame under normal fluorescent room lights for about 20 minutes. I saw no evidence of exposure on the side covered by the fabric (either in a single or double layers).

I'll probably order about 12 yds of the stuff immediately to have on hand.

Joe

[jon.oman]

Great find!

Jon

[JRFrench]

Thanks for that Ive been looking for something like this to make some bellows from. I was going to have to resort to buying a changing bag. Now to find someone I can forward this to in the states so I can avoid the $95 they want to FedEx it to me!

[Colin Graham]

Excellent! Thanks Joe.

[BarryS]

I ordered 3 yards of the same material and received it last week. I'm going to restore some Thornton-Pickard roller blind shutters and build my first bellows. It looks like an excellent fabric, although it should probably go on the outside of a bellows laminate due to the slight sheen. Thor Labs has great service and they shipped my fabric the day after I ordered and followed up by phone. They even included a box of "lab snacks" in the package. The shipping charge was very reasonable and you can choose the carrier.

[eddie]

thanks. this sounds great

[IanMazursky]

Very cool find! Ive been using dark bags from film boxes and rolls but this is much better.
The bags are a pain to use since they come coated with corn starch or something like that.

[Jim C.]

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but I also ordered the same cloth from Thorlabs and
my initial test in trying to glue the material with contact cement failed on the
'rubber' side, and it wasn't user error either. I have a email in to tech support to
find out what exactly the coating is made out of, I suspect it's either a vinyl, or a
urethane, with urethane being top on the list since I use a vacuum bagging film
that has a similar feel to the coating.

I also ran a opaqueness test using a hi intensity LED flashlight, since I'm making camera bellows
for a restoration and it will probably work providing the outer cover of the bellows is opaque enough.

Left side of the image is one layer, right is two layers

[Clarence Rhymer]

Hello all,

To those of you who have some in hand, I have two questions. Does it appear to be thin and flexible enough for a Thorton Pickared roller-blind shutter? What do you think the smallest bellows would be that could be made with this product? I realize this is a matter of opinion and estimation, but I just got a Cambo Legend, and the bellows fold down to naught.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Clarence

[Jim C.]

Clarence, the Thorlabs BK5 fabric is extremely thin, .005" thick, about as thick
as a sheet of paper and is very flexible, takes folds ok, it's not stretchy so I would
guess that it may make a good shutter cloth for the Thorton Pickard as long as
it's not used on the bias.

My feeling is that it could be used for the inner bellows lining for any size
bellows depending on how thick the outer covering and the ribs would
be, the quantity that Thorlabs sells is quite alot, and is very reasonable in price when you
break it down, 5 ft wide ( 60" ) x 9 ft ( 3yds ) compared to pneumatic bellows cloth
at about $30 per yard X 42 " width.
The only minus is that the cloth side has a sheen to it, not totally matte.

I think would also make a great dark cloth.

[Clarence Rhymer]

Hello Jim,

Thank you for the detailed reply. I have ordered some from Thorlabs today. I also managed to contact Mike today at The Leather Supply House and ordered some Motor Cloth, 030-5 Rubberized Cloth Superfine Pneumatic Cloth, and 030-6 Silk Pneumatic Cloth. You are right, the BR5 from Thorlabs is a good deal (although they only ship UPS or FedEx).

Cheers,
Clarence

[Jim C.]

Clarence,

Glad to be of assistance, I've done another glue test using the BK5 material
and contact cement that I'm going to let sit overnight, I'm also trying 3M #80
spray cement for rubber & vinyl to see if that gives me a better bond.

I wound up ordering my rubberized pneumatic cloth from the Player Piano Company.
Hopefully it will arrive today or tomorrow.

[Clarence Rhymer]

Hello Jim,

Which rubberized pneumatic cloth did you order from the Player Piano Company? Was it the DA1046 or the SH653?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Clarence

[Jim C.]

Hello Clarence,
I don't recognize the product numbers you posted, I ordered the
# 50 pneumatic bellows cloth .008" thick 55" wide, black,
dusted ( I presume with talc if it's natural rubber ).
Page 5 of their downloadable PDF catalog.

This is the place I called to order - http://www.playerpianocompany.com

I also want to update my glue tests with the Thorlabs BK5 blackout cloth
for those interested -

My test parameters were after 6 and 24 hours I would try to peel apart the
glued fabric which was glued rubberized side to rubberized side.
I did get a response from ThorLabs tech support and they're still waiting for their supplier
to get back to them on what the rubberized coating is, they did try cyanoacrylate glue
and Gorilla Glue which they said held well, but neither of those glues are suitable
for bellows making since they're rigid glues.

Weldwood contact cement ( red label ) - pheh ! It seemed to hold the best
even tho my peel test failed even after 48 hours. reasonably flexible.

3M #80 Rubber & Vinyl spray cement
3M 77 spray cement
3M 90 Hi strength spray cement - Failed miserably, very flexible but the
glue didn't have much holding power, it was like peeling off a PostIt note.


Pliobond 20 - TBA / special note : wretchedly gawd awful stink !

Pliobond 30 - TBA / special note : extremely wretched gawd awful stink !

[Clarence Rhymer]

Hello Jim,

I had the wrong site. I was looking here:

http://www.balaams-ass.com/bellowscloth.htm

although I had looked at the site here before:

http://www.playerpianocompany.com/onlinecat.html

Sorry for the confusion. Please post your impressions of the cloth when you receive it (as I know you will). This is really helpful, since shipping is an expensive part of my costs, and I like to have as much info as possible. UPS is charging $96.00 to ship 6 units of BK5 from Thorlabs. :eek:

Cheers,
Clarence

[Jim C.]

UPS is charging $96.00 to ship 6 units of BK5 from Thorlabs. :eek:


:eek: is right ! $96.00 !?!
Where are you located ?

I received the pneumatic cloth today, measures .0075" thick ( .008" ) heavier in weight than the
BK5, but that's to be expected since it's a natural rubber coating, extremely opaque, noted one
pin hole in the swatch I cut, and as happy as I am to finally get it I was a little disappointed at
how gray the black was, but on the plus side it's a cotton cloth backing which will take fabric
paint better than the synthetic fabric that the BK5 is and it's a natural rubber
coating ( smells faintly of latex gloves ) so gluing shouldn't be a problem ( going to test it tomorrow ).

The pneumatic cloth is practically a dead ringer for the inner bellows cloth that my 2D has.

[Colin Graham]

Thanks a bunch for sharing all this info Jim, it's very helpful.

[Clarence Rhymer]

:eek: is right ! $96.00 !?!
Where are you located ?



Hello Jim,

Fort Smith, NT, Canada

http://www.fortsmith.ca/cms/

That cost (actually $96.91) is for a 7.8 lb. package!

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,
Clarence

[Mike1234]

UPS is VERY pricey out of the CONUS. Compare with USPS.

[Jim C.]

Fort Smith, NT, Canada



OK, that would make it on the spendy side.

[Joe Smigiel]

I read on another forum about someone also running a flashlight test on the BK-5 material from Thorlabs.

it looks like I have to retract the information. After reading about the flashlight, I tried it with a laser pointer. I t went through the new BK-5 stuff but not a piece of the old stuff I had from Porters. I thought the paper test would be sufficient. Sorry to disappoint. I hope no one ordered this stuff because of my OP.

Two layers used as bellows material would probably work but otherwise request a sample and test it for your application.

[Jim C.]

Joe,

I wouldn't retract anything, the BK5 cloth would make acceptable bellows material,
once the bellows outer covering is in place, see tests below, if I ever had to replace
the bellows for my Busch Pressman D the BK5 would be a perfect choice, it's thinner
than the player piano pneumatic cloth.

The only issue with the BK5 is the rubberized coating resists most of my glue peel tests.
the pneumatic cloth glues extremely well with contact cement once the talc is removed.

Sturdite bookcloth with the one layer of BK5

[Jim C.]

Quick update, the Pliobond glue, aside from the stink it has even after drying,
was as bad as the 3M spray glues I tested on the BK5 cloth.
Thor Labs tech support latest email to me was that the cloth manufacturer
can't divulge what the rubberized coating is since it's proprietary.

The player piano pneumatic bellows cloth was very good gluing with Weldwood
contact cement ( red label ) and did very well with my peel test,
Barge ( yellow label ) should have similar results if not better since it's
supposed to be flexible.

[Marek Warunkiewicz]

How about the stuff at the bottom of this page, would this work?

http://www.owfinc.com/Fabrics/NylonWoven/taffeta.asp

[Jim C.]

How about the stuff at the bottom of this page, would this work?

http://www.owfinc.com/Fabrics/NylonWoven/taffeta.asp

Not sure since they're not saying what the thickness of the fabric is,
ask to see if they're willing to send you a sample swatch or a scrap
to see how thick it is and opaque.

[Jim C.]

Update to my glue tests with the BK5 -

Finally found a glue that will glue that dang fabric and survive my peel test !

HH-66 Vinyl fabric cement from R-H Products worked very well with the
BK5 fabric, I ordered it from McMaster-Carr ( # 7507A4 ) the adhesive
glued the BK5 to leather extremely well, and glued the BK5 to itself ( coated side )
but unfortunately has a short 2-5 min open time for assembly.

Sorry for the poor image quality, they were taken with my phone.
First image shows the leather has stuck pretty well, the second shows
the coated side to coated side bond.

[Joe Smigiel]

How about the stuff at the bottom of this page, would this work?

http://www.owfinc.com/Fabrics/NylonWoven/taffeta.asp

The OWF aluminized nylon is the stuff I made my collodion darktent with. It is not totally lightproof until three layers. It does however block enough light to make an excellent lightweight darkcloth.

http://my.net-link.net/~jsmigiel/images/technical/collodion/darktent/Tent010506a72.jpg

[BarryS]

Finally found a glue that will glue that dang fabric and survive my peel test !



Thanks for the update, Jim.

[Jim C.]

My pleasure BarryS, now I have save up again for bellows covering ;)

[CCB]

Has anyone used the Thorlabs BK5 cloth on a bellows yet?

[Shadowtracker]

Out of curiosity, since the last post here, has anyone made a bellows out of the BK5 material? Results to share? I'm looking at making a bellows for a 5x7 and an 8x10 this summer. The information here has been great to read, just wondering if there were dismal results, or wonderful ones.

[cdholden]

I'm looking for darkbox shroud material and have seen where this Thorlabs search leads to a dead end online. I'm heading to Joann Fabrics, Hobby Lobby and Wal-Mart this weekend with a flashlight and a laser pointer. I'll be looking at sheer black velveteen and some other material to be determined.
Oh yeah... I still need to build the darkbox too!

Chris

[CCB]

I found that the BK5 material was a bit too shiny for a bellows liner. The HH-66 cement did the best job of bonding it to other fabrics. Be sure to make your own tests.

The fabric thickness is critical here, because of the foldability factor.

You have to admire the original materials for opacity, flexibility and longevity!