Your method for matching lens to landscape composition

[emo supremo]

Chicken or the egg? Could someone suggest key words to put in the search engine in order to find pet methods of matching lens to the shot composed in your mind.

Does one use their legs to zoom to a point selected by ... what? ... degrees, two right angled "L" composition aids, the Force young Skywalker, a coin toss?

This is a serious question: my wife and neighbors cast unfriendly looks when I'm out in the yard practicing with these L's. But the L's permit me to frame the shot's boundaries, and a compass reading on the boundaries gives the angle, and the angle can be matched to the lens. This seems the quickest, accurate way of getting the image on the ground glass.

Another method I've been using that is fast is to hold a tape measure out in front of me (both hands extended) with my thumbs on the boundaries of my composition i.e. the L and R vertices of a triangle (the third vertice being my eyes). I've marked the lens's length of the opposite side on the tape measure.

(The tape measure doubles when measuring reciprocity correction due to bellows extension)

[Mike1234]

I move around until I find all the compnents I want into (our out of) the composition then decide how I want the foreground and background to relate. I move to that position and select the lens that fits the need. I don't try to complicate composition with formulas.

[Jim Noel]

Always use a viewing (composing) card. If a string is attached with knots at appropriate distances it will not only frame the scene, but prescribe the appropriate lens.
If this solution was good enough for AA, it is good enough for me.

[jim kitchen]

Dear emo supremo,

Cool name... :)

I use a viewing card too, but without the strings and knots. An 11X14 8ply matte board with a 4X5 hole cutout in the middle works well, where the matte board is black on both sides to minimize my confusion, and to block any extraneous background information. Age taught me how far away to hold it from my eyes for each lens. My board could be smaller, but I have never made it smaller.

I hope this helps...

jim k

[Brian Ellis]

I use the 4x5/8x10 Visualizer sold by B&H, Adorama, et al. It's a black plastic card about 8x10" with a 4x5 cutout in the center and a tape with 4x5 and 8x10 focal lengths marked. You hold the tape up to your cheek (the one under your eye, not the other one), extend the Visualizer out with your other hand until you see the composition you want in the cutout, then check the tape to see what focal length lens iis needed for that composition. I've been using this method for years and have always liked it. I think the Visualizers cost about $10 - $15 if they're still sold.

[SamReeves]

Hmmm

Put in the first lens, see the ground glass…if it sucks, change it for another lens. ;)

[pocketfulladoubles]

I use a homemade card. Basically, I took a piece card stock and cut out a 4x5" hole, and affixed a piece of string coming from just beneath the bottom of the cutout. Then for each lens, I held the card out at a distance to match the ground glass focused on some landscape scene. I place a small tab on the string that I could bite on, and labeled it the focal distance of that lens. So, in essence, the string will have as many tabs as you have lenses, and you can walk around looking at things through the card. When you find something, just pull the string to your teeth and pick the closest one, selecting a shorter focal distance if in-between, and crop.

[Robert Hughes]

I look for a scene that will fit inside my camera. If it's too big, I move back ...

[Gem Singer]

I usually use my thumbs and forefingers to form a rectangular shape, similar to the size of the format I am using, to scope out the scene.

When it looks right, I then set up my tripod, aim my camera, and mount a lens of a focal length that I feel will best cover the scene. If the image in the ground glass looks too large, or small, I replace the lens with one of more suitable focal length.

The ground glass tells the story. That's the place to crop.

If you don't have a choice of different focal length lenses, either move forward, backward, or don't shoot the scene.

I have a friend that shoots almost everything with a wide angle lens then crops the image in Photoshop. He has a variety of lenses to choose from, but he prefers to do it the easy way.

[Vaughn]

After 30 years of using just a normal lens for each format as I went from 120 to 4x5 to 5x7 and now 8x10, I pretty much can place my pod where it should go. Perhaps with some fine-tuning, as Robert suggests, so I'll move until the image fits on the GG. I have never used a viewing card, but sometimes I use my fingers to frame a scene.

And sometimes the desired image never fits the GG -- changing focal length won't help, though perhaps changing focal length will help one find a different image. I have expanded my range of lenses for the 8x10, and generally can predict what will show up on the GG, except the long lenses. They never seem to be long as I think they are (19" and 24"), so they fool me sometimes. So it goes, perhaps I will get better with them as I use them more...no hurry. Ninety percent of my images are still made with my normal lens (300mm).

Vaughn

[Brian Ellis]

Hmmm

Put in the first lens, see the ground glass…if it sucks, change it for another lens. ;)

For some reason whenever I tried that method the good light always disappeared while I was changing lenses. : - )

[Armin Seeholzer]

Oh I do it the dangerous way, look at what I want take a picture from and now I just take the right lens out of my car put it on the camera and make the picture.
If I'm on the way by feet its not alway as easy, many times I had not the right lens in my Rucksack, so I got pissed on my self and look out for an other possiblity.
If I'm on the way for a payed shooting I take my Linhof viewfinder with me and I make some notes! But I very seldom use the viewfinder anymore, most of the time I just know what is needed.
I think after 20 years with LF it should like this!

Cheers Armin

[MIke Sherck]

Viewing card, with string marked for each lens' focal length. my card is 5x7 with a 4x5 hole.

[emo supremo]

Hmmm, no one made any real disparaging remarks with their hand and/or fingers. Excellent for the craft! Here's another one that I used to use before the tape measure: put my thumbnaills face to face extend my arms and spread finger as wide as they'll go. When I have a 250 Ektar WF on the 8x10 I know that at infinity everything between the tips of my pinkies can fit the ground glass.

I like this method of using my anatomy because I ususally bring my hands along. Problem is the ink keeps washing off.

I wish there was a club to shoot with. It's really, really swell being able to associate with you Forumites.

[Vlad Soare]

I wish I had one of these (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31203-GREY/Linhof_001378_45_Multifocus_Viewfinder_with.html).
Unfortunately, my budget doesn't allow for this right now.

[Mike1234]

I wish I had one of these (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31203-GREY/Linhof_001378_45_Multifocus_Viewfinder_with.html).
Unfortunately, my budget doesn't allow for this right now.

Buy one of the inexpensive Chinese versions with zoom and ability to switch masks... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330393738197

Or a director's viewfinder like this... http://cgi.ebay.com/Directors-Viewfinder-Black-version-Film-Video-formats_W0QQitemZ180451418101QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a03be1ff5

[Lon Overacker]

Although there are times I wish I had a viewing card, I simply look at the scene and can decide what lens I'm going to use. It's not too hard when I only have 5 lenses and I can narrow it down pretty quick without any tools or gadgets by determining if I want wide angle, normal or long. Years of shooting the same focal lengths helps too and there is something to be said about an educated/experienced guess. Every once in a while I'll have to zoom in and out with my legs if there's room.... but for the most part I can pull out the lens I need without too much thought.

The less I have to think about, the more I can enjoy the moment...

Lon

[Donald Miller]

Although there are times I wish I had a viewing card, I simply look at the scene and can decide what lens I'm going to use. It's not too hard when I only have 5 lenses and I can narrow it down pretty quick without any tools or gadgets by determining if I want wide angle, normal or long. Years of shooting the same focal lengths helps too and there is something to be said about an educated/experienced guess. Every once in a while I'll have to zoom in and out with my legs if there's room.... but for the most part I can pull out the lens I need without too much thought.

The less I have to think about, the more I can enjoy the moment...
Lon

I agree. My experience is that I can choose a lens without much thought. That comes after repetition. I have the Zone VI viewing frame/filter but rarely use it today.

Donald Miller

[Mike1234]

Right on, Van, if one needs a little help composing then a director's zoom finder with adjustable mask is the way to go. See post #16 for links to a decent one and for a cheap zoom viewfinder alternative.

[Lon Overacker]

Guessing can cause you to miss your shot.
So can fooling around with a tool just to select your lens. If time is of the essence and you could miss your shot, then your best friend is usually experience. Hopefully you would agree that there is a difference between pure "guessing" and an "educated or experienced guess." Or "repetition" as Donald mentioned. But even more basic than that is for me personally, I have 5 lenses. Am I "guessing" if I know that I want the 300 instead of the 75? Hopefully I already know whether I'm going wide or long. So am I really guessing when I only have 5 lenses to choose from?

I also said there are many times that I wish I had a viewing tool/aid. I think it would be valuable. I just happen to be comfortable without one and the OP was just asking folks what their method for choosing was. We all know that for the most part LF is a slow and contemplative process right? So many times we find ourselves wandering around an area looking for comps and having a viewer would be quite helpful. For some, it may work just as well just using "seeing" the scene and visualizing what a 210 would look like. No biggie.

Lon

[jp]

I just close one eye and I can see how it's going to look represented in 2 dimension. Then I can guess how much I will zoom with my feet, or which lens I will use.

I can use the removable optical finder that attaches to the top of my speed graphic, but I generally don't and leave it in place.

[anchored]

I use the Linhof 45 Multifocus Viewfinder that Vlad wished he had. Expensive way to do it perhaps... but it came with the camera. Saves considerable time in not only choosing a lens but also in choosing exact locations in which to set up and whether the image works better in vertical or horizontal.

Negative to having one is that when shooting with others that use fingers, guesswork, or cardboard cut-outs one finds themself waiting for the viewfinder-less to finish with it.

Awfully expensive to buy new, but can be had used for $400-$600 for the new version and less for the older. Honestly one of the best "accessories" to be in a kit.

[Gem Singer]

Hey Glenn.

If that expensive Linhof viewer hadn't come with your camera, and you had never used one of those accessories before, would you have purchased it anyhow?

I've been with you when you walked about a scene peering through that Linhof viewer, and never even bothering to set up your camera. The rest of us came away with a couple of very nice shots of the scene after framing it with our fingers.

[anchored]

Gem:

a) Yes, I would've purchased one (no doubt used).

b) The use of the viewer has never prevented taking a photo wanted, except to indicate that setting up a camera was a waste of time and film, in my personal opinion.

c) As far as "nice shots" being missed... what is or what is not an image one desires to capture is a very subjective matter.

[Shen45]

I look for a scene that will fit inside my camera. If it's too big, I move back ...

:)

[Gem Singer]

I wonder if Ansel Adams used an optical view finder to compose his photos.

Anybody know?

[ljb0904]

I have a 5x7 black mat board with a 4x5 hole cut out. I tied a string to it and marked off my focal lengths with a sharpie. The string is a loop so I can hang the thing around my head. Most of the time I have it with me, though sometimes I don't. I like using it because it lets me practice composing even when I don't want to photograph something. I find it useful, but it's not a crutch and I don't always use it.

[SamReeves]

For some reason whenever I tried that method the good light always disappeared while I was changing lenses. : - )

Aww c'mon, you gotta be faster than that at sunset! :p J/K

[Brian Ellis]

I use the Linhof 45 Multifocus Viewfinder that Vlad wished he had. Expensive way to do it perhaps... but it came with the camera. Saves considerable time in not only choosing a lens but also in choosing exact locations in which to set up and whether the image works better in vertical or horizontal.

Negative to having one is that when shooting with others that use fingers, guesswork, or cardboard cut-outs one finds themself waiting for the viewfinder-less to finish with it.

Awfully expensive to buy new, but can be had used for $400-$600 for the new version and less for the older. Honestly one of the best "accessories" to be in a kit.

I owned the new version, used it for about six months, sold it, and went back to the viewing card I mentioned in a previous post. I never found a convenient way of carrying it since I couldn't store it on my camera in my back pack. It was fairly big and bulky, too bulky to wear around your neck or on your belt. It also took longer to get on the camera and to the right point for the desired composition than the viewing card because my hand had to be in an awkward position to turn the ring or knob that moved it back and forth. I just found it inconvenient and time-consuming to use compared to a card, not to mention vastly more expensive. I actually thought just from looking at pictures that the older version might have been easier to use. But they're nice instruments and I can see why some would like them especially if they had never used anything else.

[Steve Gledhill]

This is the third time I've posted this - a year or two ago and a few weeks ago - it works perfectly - and is very cheap:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=41735

[Drew Wiley]

I just do it - intuively grab a lens, compose the shot, and if it's fishy either try another
lens or give up. I'm very, very nickpicky about composition; and if it doesn't look right
on the groundglass, I don't know what good some handheld cropping gadget will do.
This doesn't mean my final shot is exactly what I at first imagined, however - I often
readjust the camera and explore around through the ground glass itself before reaching
for film. Might take 30 seconds, or might take half an hour!

[Greg Miller]

Before using a viewing card or rangefinder, you need to think about how you want to represent the spatial relationship between objects, and also think angle of view of foreground elements vs. angle of view of the background elements. If you want to exaggerate the near/far spatial relationships, or you want to have a wider angle of view in the background elements than foreground, then you want a wide angle lens and should move to a position that allows for the appropriate composition (do you want that boulder to loom and dominate the foreground or do you want to diminish its presence? Do you want the faraway mountain range to be majestic or subtle?). If you want to compress the near/far spatial relationship, or narrow the angle of view of the background elements, then you need a longer focal length lens., and you should move to a position that allows for that composition.

Then you can take out your viewing card or rangefinder.

[tgtaylor]

While on a road trip a few years back I stopped in Ink Jet Arts in Salt Lake City and purchased all their remaining 6x7 cardboard Blair mounts for mounting 6x7 transparencies. I also bought some 4x5 Blair mounts. Simply take your camera to an open space with a field of view that encompasses all your lens and determine how many fingers the mount must be held in front of you to encompass the same field of view as seen thru the lens. For example, 6 fingers for my 150mm Rodenstock lens holding the mount between the thumb and index finger of the left hand and all 5 fingers of the right lined-up and touching the left thumb.

Well, they don't make Blair mounts anymore (I bought the last ones) but you can cut out a 4x5 opening in heavy matt board and keep it in your pack. Be sure to write the results in permanent ink on the side of the mount.

Somewhat tacky, I guess, but it's a heck cheaper and lighter than a Universal Linhoff finder.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Save your money and just make yourself a viewing frame. I use a 4x5 inch cutout in white matt board. I use the 4x5 "viewer" when out with the 8x10 too. I just double the focal length. I find it very useful in isolating compositions as well. Pardon me, I've had too much Sherry... how come there's no drunk smiley face??

[argos33]

I usually scratch my head for a second or two, then do a dance. After the dance, I always know which lens it is...

In all seriousness though, I have to agree with Greg. I usually spend a good amount of time just staring at the scene, and deciding what about it I find interesting or what draws my eye. Sometimes the "big picture" is what I find most interesting, other times one small detail. Once I've decided what I want to include/exclude, and what I want the spatial relationships to be I'll reach for the framing card, but I usually have a pretty good idea of which lens is going to do the trick.

[cyberman1946]

Emo, this question never gets old. There are several good ways to turn your mental image into a virtual image into a film image. Cheapest (a card in your format) to elegant (a Linhof viewfinder). Use the method that doesn't get in the way and practice, practice, practice. After about forty years of the aforementioned practice you can just walk to the exact spot and mount the right optic.

[Mike1234]

I've been thinking of using a small ~7" ultra-thin digital photo frame with an external battery and mini USB input together with a cheap P-&-S camera that accepts W/A or tele adapters as needed to simulate the FL of the lenses I'm using for film. One could use a transparent mask with lines placed over the photo frame to show different aspect ratios. There are digital cameras that show real-time images while one composes. Just watch the 7" screen while composing and shoot. If you don't like what you see then shoot another until you get it just right. Set up the 8x10 and take the shot. Of course, the light may be gone by then. :D

Think of it as "chimping" on steroids for LF photographers. :)

[Winger]

I use a homemade card. Basically, I took a piece card stock and cut out a 4x5" hole, and affixed a piece of string coming from just beneath the bottom of the cutout. Then for each lens, I held the card out at a distance to match the ground glass focused on some landscape scene. I place a small tab on the string that I could bite on, and labeled it the focal distance of that lens. So, in essence, the string will have as many tabs as you have lenses, and you can walk around looking at things through the card. When you find something, just pull the string to your teeth and pick the closest one, selecting a shorter focal distance if in-between, and crop.

I know this is an older thread, but I didn't want to start a new one and the quote above is part of what I'm looking for. When making your own and marking the string, what type of scene do you focus on and how far away? Do you focus on something at close to infinity or something closer?

I frequently am out somewhere without a camera and want to get an idea of whether the scene will work with one of my lenses (or the lens, depending on the camera). I know experience will help, but I only have about 3 years of LF so far. I'm also considering the iPhone app "Viewfinder Pro" but it's $20 and a piece of mat board is cheaper (though I nearly always have the phone with me anyway).

Thanks!

[Scott Walker]

I started out using a grey card with a 4x5 hole in it and a string attached. I now use Viewfinder Pro.
The card with the hole and string really sucks in comparison.
The only time I have used the grey card with the hole since getting the app was as a grey card. :p

[Winger]

I started out using a grey card with a 4x5 hole in it and a string attached. I now use Viewfinder Pro.
The card with the hole and string really sucks in comparison.
The only time I have used the grey card with the hole since getting the app was as a grey card. :p
Good to know. Maybe it'll be worth the $20 then. Thanks!

[Bill_1856]

Hmmm

Put in the first lens, see the ground glass…if it sucks, change it for another lens. ;)

Sounds right to me.

[Drew Bedo]

The ground glass is truth.

If the view on the gg doesn't match your creative vision you must change the lens or change your position.


shooting a scene with the intention to crop to your desired compositionis also a valid technique, as is stiching multiple shots.


No system or application beats experience. Know your gear. Know what it is capable of (and what the limitations are) and visualize the images your kit can capture well.

[John Kasaian]

With a 10", 14" & 19" lens in the kit, I've got a one in three chance of nailing it first time around, but thinking to myself wide, normal or long? Increases the odds I'll pick the correct focal length for what I'm after:)
When I only had one lens, this was no problem!:rolleyes:

[E. von Hoegh]

Chicken or the egg? Could someone suggest key words to put in the search engine in order to find pet methods of matching lens to the shot composed in your mind.

Does one use their legs to zoom to a point selected by ... what? ... degrees, two right angled "L" composition aids, the Force young Skywalker, a coin toss?

This is a serious question: my wife and neighbors cast unfriendly looks when I'm out in the yard practicing with these L's. But the L's permit me to frame the shot's boundaries, and a compass reading on the boundaries gives the angle, and the angle can be matched to the lens. This seems the quickest, accurate way of getting the image on the ground glass.

Another method I've been using that is fast is to hold a tape measure out in front of me (both hands extended) with my thumbs on the boundaries of my composition i.e. the L and R vertices of a triangle (the third vertice being my eyes). I've marked the lens's length of the opposite side on the tape measure.

(The tape measure doubles when measuring reciprocity correction due to bellows extension)

I look at the scene. Then I choose the lens to match what I want on the film. Sometimes I move. Sometimes I have only the one lens with me, in which case I choose the scene to match the equipment I have, moving if neccesary.

[ROL]

Method, shmethod.

IMO, composition/viewing/framing devices indicate a distinct lack of experience and/or aesthetics (i.e., "seeing") of landscape composition.

[Frank Petronio]

Agree w ROL

[Vaughn]

Method, shmethod.

IMO, composition/viewing/framing devices indicate a distinct lack of experience and/or aesthetics (i.e., "seeing") of landscape composition.

How about photographing the scene with a digital camera, then checking the composition on the screen...;)

[Andrew O'Neill]

Card board with a 4x5 cut out. Can't beat that.

[DrTang]

first..I find something I want to photograph... then I walk forward and back..sometimes closing one eye..until I get the perspective I want - that is where I plant my tripod

next..I put on a lens that will capture the amount of scene I want to photograph - I try to not move forward, for instance if I don't have a long enough lens...this would only mess up the perspective

I used to walk around with a cropping deal ..but I can do it just as well without

[mdm]

If you only use 1 lens then you get pretty good at just looking and knowing what works for you, and where you need to put the camera. You dont have to go out with an arsenal ready to make every possible picture.

[Brian C. Miller]

Method, shmethod.

IMO, composition/viewing/framing devices indicate a distinct lack of experience and/or aesthetics (i.e., "seeing") of landscape composition.

So what? Experience starts somewhere. The best "teacher" is curiosity and a willingness to try.


This is a serious question: my wife and neighbors cast unfriendly looks when I'm out in the yard practicing with these L's. But the L's permit me to frame the shot's boundaries, and a compass reading on the boundaries gives the angle, and the angle can be matched to the lens. This seems the quickest, accurate way of getting the image on the ground glass.

Emo, the original poster, actually has a different problem that what the thread title suggests. His actual problem is "my wife and neighbors cast unfriendly looks" when he's practicing setting up a shot. I have no idea how many lenses he has, and I'm sure it's more than me, but that's besides the point. Recommendation: tell your wife you love her, and ignore the neighbors.

[gliderbee]

If you have a smartphone, there are utilities for this. I use "viewfinder"for android. It allows me to define focal length and film format used, and it shows the "frame" in the camera image of your phone; you can even have multiple frames displayed together, e.g. all the frames of the lenses you have with you at that moment.

Stefan

[Brian K]

I use a Linhof Multifocus viewfinder to determine focal length and I use L croppers for composing. I usually carry about 7-8 lenses so the linhof multifocus comes in handy.

[ROL]

How about photographing the scene with a digital camera, then checking the composition on the screen...;)

Just how exactly would that work? (or are we merely talking between our cheeks :D)




So what? Experience starts somewhere. The best "teacher" is curiosity and a willingness to try.

Agreed. Try it without your "crutch".

If switching between camera systems (i.e., 120, 5X7, 8X10), not photographing everyday, some kind of shortcut using any particular system may speed composition. However, too often I see people wandering around with these framing deals, attempting to "find" a composition, not "seeing", or having any real feeling for their stalked subject. These devices are used as a crutch, for my previous simply stated reasons. As previously posted, restricting one's choices to one or two lenses at most – and taking the mind off too many equipment choices in the bargain – will likely do wonders for your composing skills, not to mention your ability to choose a lens. Not everyone is equipped physically, mentally, emotionally, or aesthetically to produce worthy photographs of every type of subject they come across. Likely as not, you may find the particular style of photography you are best at.

[Drew Wiley]

My method ... Hmm, this lens might do it ... look thru groundglass ... er, think I'd like to try something else ... Hmm ... life was so much better when I only owned one lens ...

[Lachlan 717]

Shoot sunrises/sunsets and get to your location late.

I guarantee that you'll learn to understand your vision versus which lens very quickly! You'll also learn how to set up, focus, work out exposure and shoot quickly as well...

[Geraldine Powell]

I downloaded the ViewFinder for android app, but I cannot get it to work. How do you input data? My screen is showing mo popups or indication of how to use it. I did not get asked for money when I downloaded it, maybe that is the problem somehow.
Thanks
Geraldine

[Old-N-Feeble]

Smart Phones... iPhones... ehhh!!!!!!!!!!

I'd rather buy a cheap DSLR and cheap lenses that span all the equivalent angles of view that my film cameras/lenses offer. Phoney-babies can't offer that much versatility. Not yet anyway. :D

The above stated... Thirty years ago I'd have said I don't need no steenkeen visual aid!! But, after these many years and significant sight loss, I might. We'll see soon enough.

[Shen45]

Look around, look behind. Maybe sit somewhere in the scene and let your creative brain catch up with your walking or driving brain. After a period of time when the location is starting to sink in and you can actually see what is in front of you examine the scene for all the components that make the image that struck you in the first place. For some the process of slowing down to catch up with the scene doesn't take long at all but others can spend hours in an area that at first impression held nothing before the landscape begins to reveal its component parts. I carry a viewing frame and find it very useful. When I reach that point I'm starting to see the scene in front of me I start contemplating the refinement of lens choices. My viewing frame has a 5x4 opening then a knotted string at the focal length of each lens I have. After all this is large format so if this seems a bit slow you can always get a video camera.

[John Kasaian]

If you only use 1 lens then you get pretty good at just looking and knowing what works for you, and where you need to put the camera. You dont have to go out with an arsenal ready to make every possible picture.

Dat true!

[Leigh]

I use a Linhof Multifocal viewer, but for selecting scenes, not lenses.

In an outdoor environment there are usually many different views that can be captured.
I find it instructive to look through the viewer at different FL settings to isolate images.

Perhaps a more experienced artist would not need such assistance. I've only been
shooting for 50+ years, so I'm still learning.

- Leigh

[David_Senesac]

Decades ago as a 35mm SLR photographer carrying several different fixed lenses, I got pretty good at just looking at a scene and knowing which lens to grab. As a LF photographer due to the weight I only have a 90mm, 150mm, and 300mm so now it is even more obviously easy. Also carry a small digital compact that I will sometimes take quick for the record pics to evaluate frame aesthetics in order to return when light is optimal. In any case in my old age, maybe 80% of my shots are with the normal 150mm Nikor because I prefer natural looking images in all ways. Thus usually work to find a way to get an image with that perspective. There are times nonetheless when only a wide angle lens is capable of getting all a scene and will immediately go to work with my 90mm. Often I figure out perspectives in areas I haven't yet visited by doing my topo map work beforehand using clear plastic angle of view protractors and trigonmetry for what can be viewed. In mountainous areas, one does not want to be hefting heavy gear up and down terrain inefficiently. And time good light is worthwhile does not last long so one does not want to be wasting time in the wrong places.

http://www.davidsenesac.com/Information/angle_of_view.html

[gliderbee]

Just to be sure we are talking about the same app, this is the one I meant: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jfdupuis.photography.viewfinder&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5qZmR1cHVpcy5waG90b2dyYXBoeS52aWV3ZmluZGVyIl0.

It's not free, but it works. You get to the menus through the menu key of your phone.

Stefan.


I downloaded the ViewFinder for android app, but I cannot get it to work. How do you input data? My screen is showing mo popups or indication of how to use it. I did not get asked for money when I downloaded it, maybe that is the problem somehow.
Thanks
Geraldine

[gliderbee]

Well, yes, you said it: BUY a cheap DSLR, BUY the lenses, and carry all the stuff with you; don't you have enough to carry as it is with your LF gear :) ? As I said in my first message: IF you have a smartphone ...

Stefan.


Smart Phones... iPhones... ehhh!!!!!!!!!!

I'd rather buy a cheap DSLR and cheap lenses that span all the equivalent angles of view that my film cameras/lenses offer. Phoney-babies can't offer that much versatility. Not yet anyway. :D

The above stated... Thirty years ago I'd have said I don't need no steenkeen visual aid!! But, after these many years and significant sight loss, I might. We'll see soon enough.

[Doremus Scudder]

Two things are important in composing/arranging an image for me. 1. The spatial relationship of the elements in the scene. 2. Placing the borders of the image. Ideally, the spatial relationship is a direct function of camera position; the placing of the borders then determines lens choice and cropping.

To assist in determining borders, I usually use a Zone VI viewing filter. It is small, fits easily in a pocket and has the added benefit of rendering the tones in their approximate relationships, which helps in filter choice. Once the scene is framed as I wish, the distance from the viewing filter to the eye is directly proportional to lens focal length. After a while, one gets a pretty good feeling for which lens to choose based on how far the viewing filter is from the eye. One could do some tests and make a knotted string or the like to indicate the exact focal lengths one has; I've never felt the need.

I normally have determined camera position and framing and know which lens I'm going to mount on the camera before I start to set up. If I do have to change to a different lens, it's only the next focal length up or down, and usually because I'm making some compromise (like changing camera position, or having to crop more because the closest focal length is just a tad too long for the camera position).

I'd recommend the Zone VI viewing filter unreservedly. However, since these are getting rarer and rather expensive on the used market, I would also recommend a small viewing frame. I have used a 4x5-inch card with a rectangle cut out of the center then folded in half and stuck in my shirt pocket (I made one out of the bottom of a Kodak 4x5 film box; nice and black). There's no reason the hole has to be the same size as the film to do its framing/lens choosing job, and I see no reason to lug an unwieldy 8x10-inch piece of mat board around in the field. Small is better.

Best,

Doremus

[Brian K]

Method, shmethod.

IMO, composition/viewing/framing devices indicate a distinct lack of experience and/or aesthetics (i.e., "seeing") of landscape composition.


Well then I guess after 35 years I don't know anything about aesthetics or composition because I still use croppers every time I shoot and every time I examine a contact print. To me a pair of L croppers is absolutely a must.

[johnmsanderson]

Often times I will see a subject in a certain dimension (or aspect ratio) and rather than forcing it into fitting the film size I will change the dimensions of the frame to match how I see the subject. This is why I started stitching several images together to create something like a 4x10 equivalent.

www.john-sanderson.com

[Doremus Scudder]

Often times I will see a subject in a certain dimension (or aspect ratio) and rather than forcing it into fitting the film size I will change the dimensions of the frame to match how I see the subject. ...

For me, the subject determines the final aspect ratio. The world just doesn't come in 4x5 or 1.6:1 packages. I plan my image borders carefully when composing and almost always crop to get a final aspect ratio that suits the subject. All this full-frame stuff and printing black borders to prove you can use a full frame of film to photograph with is just pretentiousness IMHO...

Best,

Doremus

[Old-N-Feeble]

Doremus... I agree with your belief that the subject, and our interpretation of it, affects aspect ratio. However, I don't think those who force image framing to fit their full film format are being pretentious. I think they're just boxing themselves in.

Heck, I made that mistake several times. I was trying to use every square mm of the film to retain the best image quality possible from the film. I finally realized "maximum image quality" doesn't always equal "maximum image aesthetic". I think I eventually learned my balance and, I hope, once I start shooting again, that I've retained at least some of the few skills I once had so very long ago.

[John Rodriguez]

I use the Viewfinder Pro iphone app. It can show masks/gridlines for any format/lens combination.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I have no issues with folks using an iPhone app to preview before they shoot. In fact, I might buy an outdated DSLR with a decent LCD screen and some cheap lenses for this purpose. I'd consider using an iPhone except; 1. I don't have or need an iPhone and, 2. I'll be shooting ultra-wide sometimes (wider than iPhones can capture). What's stopping me from getting a DSLR and lenses is cost. I did purchase a used director's viewfinder with a wide-angle adapter and this combo will get close enough to the same viewing angles and aspect ratios I intend to shoot... close enough that I can interpolate from what it shows me.

[Preston]

I have a framing card with a 4x5 cut-out that I use infrequently. Most times I'll simply make a frame with my hands.

Most of my final print/web images are cropped in some way from the original full-frame neg. Crops are usually planned when I make the exposure.

I try to keep things simple. Why? Because I have only two remaining brain cells, one of which is showing smoke, so I have to be careful in how much I tax the good one. :D

--P

[Old-N-Feeble]

Adjustable viewing cards are good. I tend to over-complicate the obviously simple... as do many of us. ;)

[Corran]

I've gotten pretty good at seeing a scene and just knowing what lens to grab on my 4x5 or 8x10.

Curiously, I still can't do that on my DSLR. I think it's the long aspect ratio that gets me. If I put my D800 in 4:5 mode it helps. Also annoying - if I am carrying my 17-35mm zoom I can't seem to compose anything not either at 17mm or 35mm. I hate shooting landscapes on digital or 35mm...

[Alan Gales]

In my opinion, if you can't decide which lens to use it's because you are carrying too many lenses near the same focal length.

Years ago when I was young and shot 35mm, I used to carry all 5 of my lenses. I finally learned that less is more. I now don't believe in carrying more than 3 lenses at a time. Usually 1 or 2 is just fine for me. If my framing is not what I like, well that's why God gave me feet and legs. :)

As far as those cut out cards go I have never used one. I can pretty much visualize what I want in my head. If they help you though then go for it.

[John Rodriguez]

I'll be shooting ultra-wide sometimes (wider than iPhones can capture).

You can use a wide angle adapter for the iPhone to go as wide as 47mm.

[Old-N-Feeble]

You can use a wide angle adapter for the iPhone to go as wide as 47mm.

Really? Wow... maybe I need an iPhone after all!! :)

What's it called when a film photographer uses electronic capture devices to aid with composition? Monkey-ing around... pimping? I guess I might become a pimp-monkey.

[Gary Tarbert]

I know this is going to sound lame but i just put the 90mm on most of the time , Unless it is obvious that my main subject is too far away ,with too much foreground . I then compose with this lens and will change too a 75 or 135 if required , 90% of the time the 90 stays on . Cheers Gary

[Leigh]

If my framing is not what I like, well that's why God gave me feet and legs. :)
Feet and legs are of little benefit when the best vantage point is 50 feet on the wrong side of a cliff edge. :D

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

Lelgh, that's very true.

The point that I was making was to only carry two to three lenses at most and use your feet to fill in between. If I was going to shoot the Grand Canyon then you can bet that one of the lenses that I brought would be my longest and my next one or two lenses would also be long.

Of course this would be a moot point with me since my longest three lenses are 14", 300mm and 250mm. It's probably a good thing that I don't shoot off cliffs. ;)

[Leigh]

Hi Alan,

Yeah. I'm just funnin' wif ya. :D

I carry 16 lenses from 65mm to 450mm for 4x5.
That's the way the kit is packed, and it's not worth the effort to remove any.

The wide selection of FLs gives me a lot of latitude when selecting subjects and views.
I tend toward shorter FLs to ensure that I have room to crop or change aspect ratio if needed.

I have some mobility issues, so I'm never far from the van when shooting. No hiking for me.

- Leigh

[Maris Rusis]

Perfect landscape composition? Easy steps:

1. Learn and use the rules of composition, rule of thirds, all that stuff. People naturally find some picture arrangements more attractive or persuasive than others. The "rules" are the ploys we picture makers use to persuade our audiences to fall in love with our pictures. They don't know why they embrace some pictures and not others, but we do.

2. Have something in mind before you start. Random scouting for masterpieces rarely delivers. A good half-hour think before going out is more productive than a day of bush-bashing or fussing in the darkroom (or in front of a computer) trying to spin straw into gold.

3. Go and get the subject matter you need so that the photograph says what you need it to say. This often involves effort and travel.

4. Put the camera in the subject space so all the things in it have the right relationship front to back and side to side. That's composition finished. What's right? See items 2 and 3 above.

5. After composition comes framing. Framing is not composition. Don't move the camera, don't step forward, don't move away. Doing any of those things changes the composition and you are back to square one. Either change lenses, zoom or crop to include only those things that support items 2, 3 and 4 above. Importantly, always choose the wider angle lens that includes all the subject matter you need. Large format negatives are generous. Include some extra air and crop as required.

6. Complete the picture making process faithfully and without hurtful error.

The resulting picture features good composition and good framing. The goodness comes not from the physical arrangement of pictorial details but because a sentient photographer in full possession of their faculties and skills chose those details, that arrangement. The picture is a mind-map of the photographer; Art in a nutshell.

[Jody_S]

I find I compose landscapes according to whatever lens I feel like using that day and happen to have in the bag. Usually 2-4 brassers of various lengths and configurations. I do urban landscapes and night shoots very differently, but for better or for worse when I do landscape I do think in terms of the lenses I happen to have on me.

[Alan Gales]

Leigh, I figured you were messing with me. ;) If carrying all those lenses works for you then I'm not about to argue with you. I'm sure you know what you are doing. For me though I have found that less is more.

Maris, I don't quite agree with your #5. I do understand where you are coming from with framing is not composition. Sure, there may be a one perfect focal length for your desired composition. The problem lies with practicality. How many focal lengths are you going to carry with you? Leigh obviously agrees with you. He's carrying 16 lenses from 65mm to 450mm. :)

[Leigh]

As I said, the van is carrying the lenses. If I were back-packing the situation would certainly be different.

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

As I said, the van is carrying the lenses. If I were back-packing the situation would certainly be different.

- Leigh

Yeah, I understand you, Leigh. You make plenty of sense. I don't back pack either due to a bad back but I do take what I need with me in a big cordura tool bag from Home Depot. It has a telescoping handle and wheels on it. I just started using an 8x10 so I have even less room in the old tool bag for lenses! :)

I don't think there is any right or wrong answer here. I do think it is a great discussion especially for people new to large format.

[Leigh]

Yeah, it's certainly a matter of personal preference. No right or wrong.

My lens kit is reasonably compact. I long ago standardized on Technika boards.
They're only native to one of the five LF cameras, but I have adapters so I can use them on all.

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

Smart! I did the same thing. I have learned so much from guys like you on this forum!

I own 3 large format cameras right now. Well, three for me. I have at least another 4 cameras around here I'm going to sell. I sell camera gear to help support my photography hobby or obsession as my wife refers to it. Notice I said help support, 8x10 film ain't exactly cheap but of course you all ready know that! :D

My Tachi takes Technika boards and I have adapters for my Sinar P 4x5 and Wehman 8x10. My 14" Commercial Ektar however is mounted on a Wehman board. Ilex #5 shutters are huge!

[Leigh]

An Ilex #5 is certainly a large shutter. I have nothing that big. I suppose the Sinar boards would handle it.

For field cameras I have a Toho (yea, Toho, like a Wista), and a Zone VI in 4x5, and an 8x10 Tachihara.
The studio cameras are Sinar F2 in 4x5 and 8x10 (a real 8x10, with the large heavy standards).

If I'm going to shoot something interesting in the field, I take the Tachihara since I have a 4x5 reducing back for it,
and film in both sizes. It simplifies matters a bit, but I still have all the lenses.
Two backpacks plus all the film is a lot of stuff to schlep around.

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

Nice collection, indeed!

I wish I had an 8x10 standard for my Sinar P like you have for your F2. Field cameras are great for their light weight, I could never carry around the Sinar P in the outdoors but like Frank says a quality monorail is a joy to use!

[Leigh]

If you go for an 8x10 Sinar you need a taller front standard also.

A year ago I was offered an "8x10" Sinar, but it was put together from parts. The rear standard/back were obviously 8x10, but
the front standard was from a 4x5 and wouldn't rise enough to even center the lens on the back, much less allow movements.

- Leigh

[John Kasaian]

I mainly shoot 8x10, so unless my target is somewhere close to the car, I'll use either a 240 G Claron or 19" Artar depending on if I need a wide or long lens. If I'm working out of the trunk I can take more lenses but mostly the G Claron & the Artar do it all.

[rdenney]

If you go for an 8x10 Sinar you need a taller front standard also.

A year ago I was offered an "8x10" Sinar, but it was put together from parts. The rear standard/back were obviously 8x10, but
the front standard was from a 4x5 and wouldn't rise enough to even center the lens on the back, much less allow movements.

Given the relative rarity of those "special" front multipurpose standards, I wonder if someone like Grimes could machine rods that would screw into the bottoms of the existing rise columns to make them longer. The columns are threaded at the bottom for those caps that prevent the columns from being accidentally pulled out of the carrier. Seems like a pretty easy machining job.

That does not, of course, make the rods any stiffer.

Of course, with base tilts and a yaw-free design, one can aim the rail upward and use the base tilts to plumb the standards. That would allow one to raise the lens with respect to the film without having to extend the rise columns as far.

Rick "thinking a person adding an 8x10 rear standard might still be able to make a standard 4x5 front standard work passably" Denney

[Leigh]

Nope.

On the "real" 8x10 F2, the rear rods (vertical) are 20mm diameter, while the front ones are 15mm.

On the 4x5 F2, both front and rear rods are 10mm diameter.

- Leigh "having just measured all, to be sure" {but nothing cute at the end}

[Alan Gales]

Given the relative rarity of those "special" front multipurpose standards, I wonder if someone like Grimes could machine rods that would screw into the bottoms of the existing rise columns to make them longer. The columns are threaded at the bottom for those caps that prevent the columns from being accidentally pulled out of the carrier. Seems like a pretty easy machining job.

That does not, of course, make the rods any stiffer.

Of course, with base tilts and a yaw-free design, one can aim the rail upward and use the base tilts to plumb the standards. That would allow one to raise the lens with respect to the film without having to extend the rise columns as far.

Rick "thinking a person adding an 8x10 rear standard might still be able to make a standard 4x5 front standard work passably" Denney

Interesting, Leigh and Rick!

I have read that there are actually 3 8x10 backs for the Sinar P with various amounts of movements. I plan to only use it for portraiture. Unfortunately all 3 8x10 standards are expensive so I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with my Wehman for 8x10 portraits. Not a bad thing, I just enjoy using the Sinar a bit more.

[Leigh]

Hi Alan,

I should have mentioned that my comments were about the F2; not meaningful for the P series cameras.

i edited the previous post to include that clarification.

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

I mainly shoot 8x10, so unless my target is somewhere close to the car, I'll use either a 240 G Claron or 19" Artar depending on if I need a wide or long lens. If I'm working out of the trunk I can take more lenses but mostly the G Claron & the Artar do it all.

John, I own 3 lenses for my 8x10, a 14" Commercial Ektar, 250mm f6.7 Fujinon, and a Schneider 121mm F8 lens. The Schneider 121 is supposed to just cover 8x10. It covers my ground glass but I have not actually used it yet (it's pretty wide!). I purchased it for less than $200.00 including shipping off Ebay. I figured it would double as an ultra wide on 8x10 and a very nice mild wide on 4x5. If I end up not liking it I won't have any problem getting my money back.

The 2 lenses that I would love to have are a 19" Artar and a 165mm Schneider Super Angulon. Right now both are out of my price range.

[Alan Gales]

Hi Alan,

I should have mentioned that my comments were about the F2; not meaningful for the P series cameras.

i edited the previous post to include that clarification.

- Leigh

Thanks Leigh!

[Leigh]

The 2 lenses that I would love to have are a 19" Artar and a 165mm Schneider Super Angulon. Right now both are out of my price range.
There's a 19" RD Artar on APUG right now http://www.apug.org/forums/forum379/107529-fs-19-rd-artar-w-ilex-5-adapter.html very cheap.

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

There's a 19" RD Artar on APUG right now http://www.apug.org/forums/forum379/107529-fs-19-rd-artar-w-ilex-5-adapter.html very cheap.

- Leigh

Leigh, I'm a bit confused by the ad. It says that no shutter is included but it it mountable in an Ilex #5. Is this correct? Thanks!

[Alan Gales]

Nevermind, I see there is an adapter included to mount the lens into an Ilex #5.

[Leigh]

Hi Alan,

It appears to have an adapter that fits an Ilex #5 shutter, but not the actual shutter.

A PM to the seller would be in order. Are you active on APUG, or would you like me to relay?

- Leigh

[rdenney]

Nope.

On the "real" 8x10 F2, the rear rods (vertical) are 20mm diameter, while the front ones are 15mm.

On the 4x5 F2, both front and rear rods are 10mm diameter.

- Leigh "having just measured all, to be sure" {but nothing cute at the end}

That's why they wouldn't be as stiff. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

Rick "Yup." Denney

[Leigh]

Hi Rick,

True. It depends a lot on how much stress you put on it, like how big the lens/shutter is.

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

Thanks Leigh,

It took me awhile but I was able to contact the Seller. I had joined Apug a long time ago but never posted and forgot my password. Anyway, I told him that I am interested so I'll have to wait until he contacts me. He probably isn't a night owl like us!

[Leigh]

Great. Good luck with it.

Night owls? Who? Us? Naw! :D

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

Hello Leigh,

I talked to Charlie (the Seller on APUG) and unfortunately his adapter won't work on my shutter. It turns out that the Ilex #5 shutters that the Ektars were mounted in had different threads.

Thanks anyway. It was worth a try!

Alan

[Jim Andrada]

Charlie posts here as well on occassion

[Scotty230358]

I use a viewing card and tape measure (the sprung type with a little hook on the end). I frame the shot and hook the tape measure over the edge of the card and voila.

[Robert Opheim]

I found an older Linhof viewfinder on E-bay for $150 after looking for some time. They are bigger than I would like - but it does help. I walk around with it and find the image first with my naked eyes and then use the finder to find the exact (or near) lens and location for the image.

[C. D. Keth]

I have an app for my phone called "artemis." It's a director's finder for filmmaking for when you don't have a set of lenses and a finder handy. It just happens to support 4x5 and 8x10 in addition to the usual motion picture formats because they used to be used for shooting effects plates and images for set backdrops.

[pixelda]

I use my Canon G12 for sketching. I don't have it set to give 5x4 on the screen so I carry a true 5x4 inch cut-out.
It is possible to guess on a wide, standard, long lens from there.

When I take others on workshops, the main composition issue they have seems to be translating what is viewed into a final composition.
Often, they see more context than they need, leading to later cropping.

For landscapes there is often a size relationship between near and distant objects that works. Playing the size of one against the other can be a key task.
I often start further back from the possible tripod spot and walk into the scene until I like the look of it for scale.

Another method that can help is to scan the image into Photoshop, cut out the various parts and change their size/location.
I have a sequence of images that dempnstarte this in a show that I put on at camera clubs.