Xtol, multiple tests in same soup ??

[Tim k]

I would appreciate your thoughts, as I have so few.

I was doing some developing/time testing the other day. Then it occurred to me that I may have messed up my findings, by reusing the same developer.

I was using Xtol 1+1. I understand its capacity is about 4-4x5 sheets per 100ml of stock solution. My tank holds about 1000ml so I had 500ml of stock solution in the tank, plus 500ml of water. So, I figure that 1000ml of mix is good for 20 sheets.

My thinking is that I am using it one shot, do my thing then dump it. What I did was, run a couple of sheets, evaluate the results, adjust the time, and run a couple of more sheets in the same soup. I did this for about 5 or 6 times, for a total of 10 or 12 sheets.

SO, here's the question. Even though I'm within the capacity window of the developer, would the developer be more active for the first sheets? My guess is yes, but enough so that what I did was a bad idea.

Appreciate your time,
Thanks

[Gem Singer]

As long as you adjusted the time, and did not exceed the capacity of the developer, there should not be a problem.

A developer does tend to slow down as it is reused. however, increasing the development time should compensate for this effect.

[Tim k]

Gem,
I did not increase the time. But I do see there is some reference in the Kodak stuff I have. I'm trying to decipher it as I type this.
Thx

[Shen45]

Gem,
I did not increase the time. But I do see there is some reference in the Kodak stuff I have. I'm trying to decipher it as I type this.
Thx

Sadly unless you intend to use exactly the same method in future your tests cannot be considered trustworthy.

Repeat the test with fresh 1+1 or whatever dilution you decide for each sheet or batch or how you do your testing. Whatever you do though, always do it exactly as you have done your testing.

[Tim k]

I just read that, full strength there is little change for the first few sheets. Then there is a time comp chart.

But, I also just read; Do not replenish or reuse diluted developer.

Guess I was just being cheap. Got this new 1000ml tank, and its giving me schwintches using that much juice. I've been using little trays and a couple hundred ml.

[Gem Singer]

Tim,

It is possible to reuse diluted developer up to it's capacity providing it is used it within a short time frame.

Pouring it back into a container and using it the next day, or a few days later, is not a good idea. Diluted developer oxidizes rapidly.

Developing the first batch of films at the selected time, then immediately developing a second batch of films in the same diluted developer,with a slight time increase, is okay.

Just don't exceed the capacity (based on the amount of concentrate used, not the total amount of diluted working solution).

[Armin Seeholzer]

Oh man you all belive what big yellow father say he!
I even use my XTOL 1:1 replenish and always for a 1/2 year Kodak prefers you buy more of the soup, they make money!
I replenishe my 10 liter tank which I only use for my 8x10 inch so about all 2 months.
I do it like this: The soup in the tank is at 1:1 from the beginng. For example I did not use it for 2 months but its covered and in a cool place. So I take 1 liter out of the 1:1 soup and put 1 liter fresh soup not diluted so I get almost the fresh times from the beginning. If I did not use it for 3-4 month then I take 2 liters out of it and put 2 liters full strengs back. This way it works even at 1:1 after 6-8 month I start with fresh one at 1:1.
If I know I have very much developing in front of me I use it undiluted for at least 1 year with only replenishing at every new session.
XTOL ist the best soup, but don't drink it!

Cheers Armin

[Michael Kadillak]

Oh man you all belive what big yellow father say he!
I even use my XTOL 1:1 replenish and always for a 1/2 year Kodak prefers you buy more of the soup, they make money!
I replenishe my 10 liter tank which I only use for my 8x10 inch so about all 2 months.
I do it like this: The soup in the tank is at 1:1 from the beginng. For example I did not use it for 2 months but its covered and in a cool place. So I take 1 liter out of the 1:1 soup and put 1 liter fresh soup not diluted so I get almost the fresh times from the beginning. If I did not use it for 3-4 month then I take 2 liters out of it and put 2 liters full strengs back. This way it works even at 1:1 after 6-8 month I start with fresh one at 1:1.
If I know I have very much developing in front of me I use it undiluted for at least 1 year with only replenishing at every new session.
XTOL ist the best soup, but don't drink it!

Cheers Armin

Correct me if I am wrong but if you start with a tank of 1:1 to maintain the same developer proportions should you not replenish it with 1:1 to maintain the same strength working solution?

My point is that if you add Xtol full strength a month of two into the future you are randomly changed your dilution ratios to slowly get back to full strength Xtol.

[dfoo]

I use undilute XTOL replenished. 90-100ml per 35mm roll. For 4x5 sheets (I've only processed two) I also used 90ml. I guess I could use only 45ml... The nice thing with XTOL is that the replenisher is the same as the dev.

[Bruce Watson]

My thinking is that I am using it one shot, do my thing then dump it. What I did was, run a couple of sheets, evaluate the results, adjust the time, and run a couple of more sheets in the same soup. I did this for about 5 or 6 times, for a total of 10 or 12 sheets.

SO, here's the question. Even though I'm within the capacity window of the developer, would the developer be more active for the first sheets? My guess is yes, but enough so that what I did was a bad idea.

The answer is indeed yes. The point of testing is to test the actual working process. So you should clearly use your intended process to make the tests valid.

That said, the way you did it should give you reasonable real world results. That's because you have plenty of "excess" stock left in the tank. By running sheets previously, you've depleted working developer from the tank, thus raising the dilution a bit. But really, not by much.

I think that the results you have aren't entirely worthless. All you really should do is confirm your results using the developer as you always intend to use it. You may find you need a little tweaking, but probably very little.

[Michael Kadillak]

I use undilute XTOL replenished. 90-100ml per 35mm roll. For 4x5 sheets (I've only processed two) I also used 90ml. I guess I could use only 45ml... The nice thing with XTOL is that the replenisher is the same as the dev.

That is what I am planning to do. Fill a 3.5 gallon tank with straight Xtol and use gaseous burst and hangers and season it with some 120 rolls and replenish it according to Kodak recommendations. I will compare these results with 1:2 and 1:3 dilutions and see how much "difference" there is in the results.

[Armin Seeholzer]

Correct me if I am wrong but if you start with a tank of 1:1 to maintain the same developer proportions should you not replenish it with 1:1 to maintain the same strength working solution?

My point is that if you add Xtol full strength a month of two into the future you are randomly changed your dilution ratios to slowly get back to full strength Xtol.

Hi Michael

You have to know this is not recomanded by Kodak I do this just out of my belly;--)))
Kodak recomands to replenish only in full strengs!
I just compensate the loss of power this way, so I always have the same power from the developer. This is not done 10x its done about 4-6 times max.
And thad way it keeps alive for at least 8months.
If I do a large session for example 18 8x10 then I take 2 liters out and fill it with 2 liters in full strengs. For the last 6 sheets I have to compensate at about 10%.

Works wonderfull, Armin

[dfoo]

That is what I am planning to do. Fill a 3.5 gallon tank with straight Xtol and use gaseous burst and hangers and season it with some 120 rolls and replenish it according to Kodak recommendations. I will compare these results with 1:2 and 1:3 dilutions and see how much "difference" there is in the results.

I never did any seasoning besides develop film :) My 5L is currently at 82 rolls of 35mm. I last tested the XTOL against a known scene which I previously developed with fresh stock at 50 rolls, and the negatives to my eye appear identical.

[Michael Kadillak]

Hi Michael

You have to know this is not recomanded by Kodak I do this just out of my belly;--)))
Kodak recomands to replenish only in full strengs!
I just compensate the loss of power this way, so I always have the same power from the developer. This is not done 10x its done about 4-6 times max.
And thad way it keeps alive for at least 8months.
If I do a large session for example 18 8x10 then I take 2 liters out and fill it with 2 liters in full strengs. For the last 6 sheets I have to compensate at about 10%.

Works wonderfull, Armin

I am glad that it works for you Armin but it is inducing an unknown into your film processing. As a function of time each time you replenish at full strength you are progressing to a higher strength developer as this relates to where you started at 1:1. The effect is that this will result in denser more developed negatives as a function of time temp and time being the same. Chemistry is a finite science.

If you are starting down this road with a tank of 1:1 then to be consistent you should replenish with the same concentration that you started the process with which is 1:1. I know that Kodak does not recommend this but I do not see any reason why this would not work perfectly as you have more than adequate active developer in your tank. The technical challenge is to exceed the replenishing guidelines because of the dilution issues.

You approach is insuring that you are on the good side of the equation and realizing printable results, but my feelings are that consistency is being tossed out the window because you have absolutely no idea as to developed ionic strength at any time.

Just my $0.02

[Henry Ambrose]

If you replenish you will have to test often to see what is really happening. Or you can just guess at it...........

Do you have a really good densitometer or are you going to buy one? Willing to do a test each time you develop? If not I suggest you use your developer one-shot. You can dilute Xtol to 1:3 so you're not wasting chemicals by using it one-shot. The results are fabulous.

I use Xtol 1:3 in tanks and one-shot. It does not use too much developer if you match the tank size to the number of sheets. Just remember the 100ml stock to 80 sq. in. of film rule. (100ml stock for one 8x10 or four 4x5 sheets) I use 125ml as my minimum just to be safe and because my storage containers are 125, 250 and 500ml.

If I process one or two sheets I do so in trays and follow the same dilution with moderate agitation. 125ml Xtol with 375ml water in a tray. I've tested this to give the same results as my tanks and hangers.

Now I will hop on my soap box.......

Developing film is not about how much developer you can save. It is about developing the film. If you want to save developer, don't shoot any film. If you want perfect film every time use plenty of developer.

(and super consistent technique - but that's another discussion)

[Tim k]

Oh man you all belive what big yellow father say he!
Cheers Armin

Surely, big yellow corporate machine wouldn't lie, would they?
What your saying is encouraging, for my "please forgive me, hope this works" factor.
Thanks

[dfoo]

If you replenish you will have to test often to see what is really happening. Or you can just guess at it...........

As I said earlier in this thread, I've used XTOL replenished for the past 3 months and haven't run into any issues. Furthermore, I'm using the very same procedure as recommended by Kodak. 90ml per 35mm roll or 8x10 sheet.

[Armin Seeholzer]

It is not so dangerous at all, because I write always down how many sheets I have processed in the soup and you know after so many sheets you have to expand the time or like I do I bring it back to the old beginning power thats just all what I do. It gets not stronger it gets back to the beginning power of 1:1.
And XTOL get also a bit exhausted over time, so I only bring it back to live as it was fresh.
I see not any difference in the outcome to what I was doing the years bevor when I was always take it fresh or replenishing full strengs.
XTOL is quite forgiving in this part.

Cheers Armin

[Tim k]

Bruce,
Thanks, that is reassuring.

Henry,
You and your soapbox have shamed me. Yes, I know the stuff is cheap. And I do plan to use it one shot. I have just lost my way, trying to stretch a buck. But we are talking about a bucks worth of Xtol, and a dollar saved is, well, not worth much anymore. Do you find any significant changes in grain with 1+3?

Thanks everybody for your input.

[Henry Ambrose]

As I said earlier in this thread, I've used XTOL replenished for the past 3 months and haven't run into any issues. Furthermore, I'm using the very same procedure as recommended by Kodak. 90ml per 35mm roll or 8x10 sheet.

Good for you!

The big question is "Do you feel lucky, punk?"




(reference = Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry)

[dfoo]

I'm not sure what your point is... perhaps that Kodak doesn't know what they are talking about?