Ernemann-Werke A.G. 360mm f4.5?

[Math]

I know it's not large format, but people here seem to be very knowledgeable in general. I didn't get any replies at all over at APUG, and I really want to find out!
Well, I acquired this lens together with some others, and it looked interesting.
Does anyone have ANY information on it at all? I can't seem to even find a reference to any large lenses by Ernemann at all! Let alone past eBay auctions or any way to find a value.
It is very heavy, has a metal barrel covered with leather the length of it's focal length, with a really fine focusing mechanism. Fine as in, really really long throw. When you focus, you can actually see the ridges on the helicoid mechanism, and the whole front turns.
The aperture is changed by two 'ears' at the front of the lens. It has a large tripod screw in the middle, and a screwmount at the end for the body. It's not M42, M39. It is smaller then M42 though, but larger then M39.
It has two serial numbers, one is no. 52841, but the other is no. 8. Perhaps the longer serial is a continious serial, and the 8 is the serial of this type of lens? It would certainly explain the lack of information. Please note, in the first image the lens cap is in place.


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http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2336/68222181.jpg
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With kind regards,
Mathijs.

[Steven Tribe]

This can't be the definitive answer to your many questions - someone who knows more will chip in eventually! I would suggest that this is a large format lens. Serial no. is as your write. But the No. 8 refers to the size of this F4.5 anastigmat - that is, 360mm. No.7 might have been a 300mm etc. This was standard german practice at the time.

Ernemann made many exciting fast lenses at this period - but I don't recognise this one! F value would suggest a Tessar design but there are other possibilities. Ernemann made a whole range of large format cameras and this would have fitted one of the really big ones. Unless it was factory adapted to fit on a smaller format when it was new, it has been modified later with the tube and helical mount to fit a small format camera with a focal plane shutter - of which I have no knowledge!

[Math]

Out of curiosity I unscrewed the lens from the barrel, and all that remains is a large barrel lens that would be easy to use on large format indeed. It is quite large however! Inside the tube at the end are three square sheets spaced three centimeter apart, going from square the size of the diameter, to a 6x6 sized square opening. From there on it's still 10cm to the lens mount or so.
You might be right it's adapted later on for a smaller format. Looks like a really good adapting job, however!

[Dan Fromm]

The VM mentions several f/4.5 lenses from Ernemann, none particularly long focus.

Chances are that your lens has been remounted for a smaller format than it was made for. The "ears" and apparent lack - did I miss something in your pictures of it? -- of a focusing scale bring lenses made for LF SLRs to mind.

Pont's chronology puts the date of manufacture between 1910 and 1914.

[Steven Tribe]

The "light baffles" confirm that this lens has a very large coverage originally. A dark tube is not enough to remove the tiny reflections (perhaps 0.01 % only) of the inside of the tube. Baffles remove the last 0.01% which would diminish image quality on the plate which was probably 6x6cm.

I think Dan is right about it fitting on a very large SLR camera which were really gaining in popularity when this objective was made. I have just checked the maximum extension on my 13x18cm Mentor SLR (B&G) which was a tiny 33cm! So we are talking about a huge SLR with Focal Plane shutter.

[seven]

it is a LF lens, adapted in your case for 35mm or cine of some kind. this is the second 360mm Ernemann i hear of, and yes, the VM doesn't mention them. the guy that owns the other 360mm shoots wet plate with it, nice sharp lens.

[Steven Tribe]

I have checked the standard Ernemann Ernoflex sizes (double/triple extension) - which was ernemann's fancy SLR with Focal Plane shutter. Doesn't seem to match, though. I have another guess - perhaps it was fitted as standard to a Globus Salon-Kamera by Ernemann. This is the equivalent of the Century and was sold with a similar stand. Made from around 1900 - 1920. I suggest you google around these words and see if you find an image with the lens visable - the "ears" will help!

[Wimpler]

I'm just guessing but this might have been a lens that was used on an episcope/epidiascope (also known as opaque projector).

[Steven Tribe]

I would have thought that this is too modern an objective to have been mounted on an episcope and perhaps too slow as well. F4.5 would have fast enough for studio cameras with the emulsions available in the 1910's, whilst the speed required for projection didn't diminish. I can't remember seeing a aperture on an episcope - only on horizontal enlargers. A quick check of episcopes of the period still shows them with the old protruding barrels. A convertible episcope/epidiascope would have dificult to have this mounted as there would have to have been room for the slide mechanism between the objective and the body/condenser lens.

[Dan Fromm]

I'm just guessing but this might have been a lens that was used on an episcope/epidiascope (also known as opaque projector).They don't have diaphragms.

[leighmarrin]

As its threads are smaller than M42 and larger than M39, it MIGHT be for a 6x6cm Reflex Korelle? The Korelle had a 40.5mm thread, according to Google. That was one of the earliest 120 reflexes from the 1930s.

[Steven Tribe]

Sounds very likely! The korelle had the FP shutter, needed the helicoid focussing and has the same leatherette appearance. A typical korelle owner in the 30's would have had the dedication and resourcefulness (and economic status!) to have had a special long lens made up from a surplus LF quality lens from around 1910.

Question is - would the interest of a korelle owner now be greater than an LFer who would use it as originally intended? Don't know the korelle "scene" but I would guess that only ex-factory items would be of interest.

[Math]

it is a LF lens, adapted in your case for 35mm or cine of some kind. this is the second 360mm Ernemann i hear of, and yes, the VM doesn't mention them. the guy that owns the other 360mm shoots wet plate with it, nice sharp lens.

Interesting to hear, sadly it's too big for me to mount. Do you know of any of his work visible online? I'd love to see what this lens is capable of.



As its threads are smaller than M42 and larger than M39, it MIGHT be for a 6x6cm Reflex Korelle? The Korelle had a 40.5mm thread, according to Google. That was one of the earliest 120 reflexes from the 1930s.

Wow, great guess! The mount is indeed 40.5mm, I tried screwing a 40.5mm filter on the mount, and it fits perfectly! I suppose this makes it one of the longest lenses available, haha.

And now here's a bit of a greedy question... What would this do to it's worth? Just seeing if I'd rather sell or keep it.

Anyhow, thanks for all the replies, the knowledge here is great! Seems the topic was even related to the forum after all. :)

[leighmarrin]

Math, glad to have helped. I don't own a Reflex Korelle, but have a lens for one. It's a 75mm f3.5 Ludwig Victar I found in an antique store for $10.00. I bought it hoping it was M39 mount, but through Google learned it was for the interesting but evidently quite unreliable Korelle.

[Armin Seeholzer]

If I remember correctly did Ernemann also made some slide and filmprojectors could it be a lens for this?

God luck, Armin

[Dan Fromm]

Armin, projector lenses rarely have diaphragms, they are normally fixed aperture.

[Armin Seeholzer]

Dan rarely is the right word for it. Some very seldom highend one had one!
But you are right f 16 doesn't make sens on a lens like this!