Tips for using lightmeter with LF

[welly]

Hey guys,

Looking for some tips/tutorials/advice on using my lightmeter with large format. My camera is yet to arrive but thought I'd do some reading in the meantime. I've got a Sekonic 758 meter which I've mainly used for flash metering with my old DSLR and have a basic idea of navigating my way around the meter but that's really as far as it goes. I understand the basics spot metering, having done so on many occasions with my DSLR but I get the impression there's a little more to metering with LF cameras. Can anyone point me to any links or if you've got any resources on best practices etc. and ideally some kind of tutorial or guide!

Cheers!

Welly

[vinny]

metering for lf isn't any different than any other film format. sometimes bellows factory comes into play but other than that I never meter any differently.

[welly]

metering for lf isn't any different than any other film format. sometimes bellows factory comes into play but other than that I never meter any differently.

95% of the time I used matrix/evaluative metering on my old DSLR, and that's something I don't have with my Sekonic light meter, so I'd kind of assumed I'd be spot metering everything. Is that the case or do you use something else?

[jeroldharter]

If you really want to understand metering and your materials, read Beyond the Zone System by Phil Davis.

[welly]

If you really want to understand metering and your materials, read Beyond the Zone System by Phil Davis.

Thank you, I'll go take a look for that book.

Ta!

[percepts]

suggest you read the following recent thread on using a spot meter.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=56334

works for B+W but you may need to modify for colour if you want colour matching. Possibly even use meter in incident mode.

[welly]

suggest you read the following recent thread on using a spot meter.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=56334

works for B+W but you may need to modify for colour if you want colour matching. Possibly even use meter in incident mode.

Very useful thread. Thank you.

[Walter Calahan]

Don't give up using the incident meter feature of the 758. LF isn't always about spot meters and the zone system.

[welly]

Don't give up using the incident meter feature of the 758. LF isn't always about spot meters and the zone system.

I think I'll experiment with the spot and incident meter with my digital camera and see what kind of difference there is between the two.

[Joseph Dickerson]

Bob Shell, Martin Silverman, and Jim Zukerman collaborated on a book some 10 years ago titled "The Hand Exposure Meter Book".

If you can find a copy, you may find it useful. The publisher was Mamiya America. It concentrate on Sekonic meters, naturally enough. ISBN number is 0-9671523-0-5.

Joe D.

[Richard Raymond]

Welly,
Your DSLR is one of the best meters that you can use. It also provides you with immediate visual feedback. If you are comfortable with the camera and can work your way through histogram curves once in a while you will not need a separate light meter in many situations. In the "old days" it used to be that a general metering was done and then Polaroids were taken to make the final adjustments. Now the digital camera will do the same thing faster and cheaper. You can also get immediate filter adjustment information by using the same filters on the DSLR. Saves a lot of calculation time. The DSLR also can provide you with camera setting information attached to the raw data file that could prove to be very useful later. In general outside the studio multi flash setting I think of the light meter as a good backup for the DSLR.
Good luck.
Ric

[dave_whatever]

Your DSLR is one of the best meters that you can use.

Except for the size, bulk, weight, battery reliance, the fact they often don't stop down to small enough apertures (f/32?), or run at low ISOs (velvia 50?)....;)

[Paul Kierstead]

Hmm, lots of people are giving you advice like using the zone system without even asking if you are shooting B&W or Colour.

So, what kind of film are you shooting? For example, most people may would likely have very different strategies for metering B&W Neg vrs Colour Transparency. For simple metering, most would meter/expose for the shadows on the Neg but for the highlights for the Transparency. Subject matter makes a big difference as well. For intimate shots having only subject matter close by, incident metering can, in particular, work extremely well. Or if you don't care where the background falls. For vista-style landscape, may people might spot meter and average, with the films limits taken into account; if your shot includes clouds, for example, and you are shooting transparency film, you'll likely not want those clouds to be 3 stops over your shooting exposure regardless of the average unless you want flat white blobs.

So, start by narrowing down your film and style (at least somewhat), then work out a metering strategy.

[Brian Ellis]

Thank you, I'll go take a look for that book.

Ta!

For someone who just wants to understand the basics of metering Beyond The Zone System is overkill. It's an excellent book if you want to use that System. I used it for years. But the book is very difficult reading and goes way beyond what you need to know just to understand metering. I spent hours studying the book and ended up taking two workshops - about 10 days total - from Phil Davis before I felt that I fully understood it. It's probably the last book I'd recommend for someone just trying gain a basic understanding of metering.

Fred Picker's book "Zone VI Workshop" is much better for a basic understanding if you can find a used copy, it's been out of print for a while. The chapter on exposure in Ansel Adams' book "The Negative" and also the chapter on the Zone System are both excellent sources and that book is still in print. You might be able to find a copy in your local library.

[ki6mf]

Gem Singer did a post at this url;
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=56334

Aim the one degree spot at the darkest area in the scene where you still want to see some detail. Close down two stops.

You have just placed the shadow area in Zone III.

That's usually the proper exposure for the scene.

Now, aim the spot at the brightest area in the scene.

If it's a five stop range between the darkest and brightest reading, use normal development.

Less than five, increase development.

More than five, decrease development.

No need to take a whole series of meter readings and average them. That's defeating the purpose.

Just make certain that you have given enough exposure to get some detail in the shadows. Then, develop for the highlights.

That's the Zone System in a nut shell.

I read this is its the best work flow for using a spot meter to light accurately. Search for how to do films speed test to develop your ISO on the LF sight.

[Paul Kierstead]

Gem Singer did a post at this url;

No need to take a whole series of meter readings and average them. That's defeating the purpose.


You are making an (unstated) assumption of B&W.

[Gem Singer]

Paul,

The Zone System was originally designed for B&W film. Plus and minus development is at the heart of the Zone System.

Although it can be done, it's difficult to vary the development of color film and still maintain color balance.

For color film, it's more practical to use a smaller format, let the camera's built-in meter choose the proper exposure, and then bracket the exposures.

For large format, when using a spot meter with color film, merely learn to recognize middle grey (Zone V). Place the one degree spot on a middle grey area, and transfer the reading to the camera.

Color transparency film has a narrow range of stops in which to work compared to B&W film.

[Paul Kierstead]

I'm aware of the issues with the Zone system and colour film, but no one seems to bother mentioning it, making numerous implicit assumptions about the desired contrast range (likely from an assumption about how it will be printed), the type of film, etc.

I mean, seriously, people *do* shoot colour sometimes. Maybe the OP wants to. People could at least move past the knee-jerk 'use the zone system' response.


Paul,
For large format, when using a spot meter with color film, merely learn to recognize middle grey (Zone V). Place the one degree spot on a middle grey area, and transfer the reading to the camera.


If the colour film is transparency, I can't agree with that. It will very often leave quite a few highlights blown out, and if your subject matter was in those highlights, you're pooched. For negative film, it might be a good idea unless your subject was in the shadows, and then you're likely to get excessive grain if you attempt to bring up those shadows some. Depending, of course, on how deep those shadows are.

[dave_whatever]

I'm aware of the issues with the Zone system and colour film, but no one seems to bother mentioning it, making numerous implicit assumptions about the desired contrast range (likely from an assumption about how it will be printed), the type of film, etc.

I mean, seriously, people *do* shoot colour sometimes. Maybe the OP wants to. People could at least move past the knee-jerk 'use the zone system' response.



If the colour film is transparency, I can't agree with that. It will very often leave quite a few highlights blown out, and if your subject matter was in those highlights, you're pooched. For negative film, it might be a good idea unless your subject was in the shadows, and then you're likely to get excessive grain if you attempt to bring up those shadows some. Depending, of course, on how deep those shadows are.

I'm with paul on this one. Spotmetering for colour reversal film is not about just finding a middle grey and clicking the shutter. Its about finding out the relative brightness of elements in your shot and establishing if this is within the range of your film.

If it isn't, then either live with it or deal with it (grads or add light). If it is in the range of your film, great, just work out your exposure. And you don't need a middle grey to do that, you just have to know where you want to place the elements in your scene tonally, i.e. an artistic choice based on how you want it to look.

[welly]

Hmm, lots of people are giving you advice like using the zone system without even asking if you are shooting B&W or Colour.

So, what kind of film are you shooting? For example, most people may would likely have very different strategies for metering B&W Neg vrs Colour Transparency. For simple metering, most would meter/expose for the shadows on the Neg but for the highlights for the Transparency. Subject matter makes a big difference as well. For intimate shots having only subject matter close by, incident metering can, in particular, work extremely well. Or if you don't care where the background falls. For vista-style landscape, may people might spot meter and average, with the films limits taken into account; if your shot includes clouds, for example, and you are shooting transparency film, you'll likely not want those clouds to be 3 stops over your shooting exposure regardless of the average unless you want flat white blobs.

So, start by narrowing down your film and style (at least somewhat), then work out a metering strategy.

I'm planning on shooting both colour and b+w to start with until I get settled into a format. I do plan to shoot more b+w though, so I can easily process at home.

My local library has the Beyond The Zone System book in, so have reserved that, and they've actually got a pretty decent collection of older text books on photography so I'm going to grab a big pile of them and read them over christmas, plus actively using the meter and experimenting with that and my digi camera until the Sinar arrives. Can't wait though!

[percepts]

I'm planning on shooting both colour and b+w to start with until I get settled into a format. I do plan to shoot more b+w though, so I can easily process at home.

My local library has the Beyond The Zone System book in, so have reserved that, and they've actually got a pretty decent collection of older text books on photography so I'm going to grab a big pile of them and read them over christmas, plus actively using the meter and experimenting with that and my digi camera until the Sinar arrives. Can't wait though!

Well for B+W the important thing is that everything is on the negative and the negative fits the film. If you are going to err, then err on the side of overexposure and NOT under exposure. But better still to get your exposure and development spot on.

The trick is to work out your "normal" development and know how many stops of subject brightness range that is from black to white which just fits the paper at a nominal grade 2. Only then can you know whether to meter a shadow and close down 1.5, 2 or 2.5 stops. All depends what you set as "Normal". That is upto you but normally for landscapes it is 8 to 10 stops of subject range. If it were 8 then you meter a shadow area in which you just want full texctural detail and close down 1.5 stops. If it were 10 then you would close down 2 stops. So you see there is a half stop difference in exposure for an 8 stops range and a 10 stop range so you wil be pretty close in either case. (but there may be a 1/3rd stop difference in effective film speed too.)

p.s. I read Beyond the Zone System and thought the only thing memorable about it was the photo on the cover. It's a step too far into photography by numbers IMO.

[Preston]

Dave wrote, "I'm with paul on this one. Spotmetering for colour reversal film is not about just finding a middle grey and clicking the shutter. Its about finding out the relative brightness of elements in your shot and establishing if this is within the range of your film.

If it isn't, then either live with it or deal with it (grads or add light). If it is in the range of your film, great, just work out your exposure. And you don't need a middle grey to do that, you just have to know where you want to place the elements in your scene tonally, i.e. an artistic choice based on how you want it to look."

I shoot all color, using Astia 100F, primarily. I heartily agree with Dave's statement about color transparency exposure. In order to maintain detail in the high values, you have to expose for them, while allowing the other values to fall where they may. My metering is just as Dave says: Meter the highs, place that value to retain detail and then see if the low values fall within the dynamic range of the film. If the dynamic range is too great, I will either come back later, or compensate in some way.

On a side note: when I meter a scene, I also check for those values that will print pure black. If these areas are small in areal extent, I can usually live with them. If they are large, I will move on and look for something with a better balance of tone.

-Preston

[dikaiosune01]

instead of starting a new forum; i have a few additional questions. Please bear with me.

so i got this crazy idea from kenrockwell about using your digital dslr as a spot meter...
okay, cool, i can save myself a few hundred dollars and i have something to use while i walk up to the location.

- does focal length matter?
- will a longer focal length get me a more accurate spot meter reading?
- should it be the equivalent focal length of my field camera to match composition?
- can i use my compact camera (Canon G10) as a light meter for my view camera?
(i think the last camera is more difficult because it will be difficult to get the correct aperture values above f/8, in case i want to shoot f/32 etc. - the smallest aperture on the canon G10)

[Jack Dahlgren]

instead of starting a new forum; i have a few additional questions. Please bear with me.

so i got this crazy idea from kenrockwell about using your digital dslr as a spot meter...
okay, cool, i can save myself a few hundred dollars and i have something to use while i walk up to the location.

- does focal length matter?
- will a longer focal length get me a more accurate spot meter reading?
- should it be the equivalent focal length of my field camera to match composition?
- can i use my compact camera (Canon G10) as a light meter for my view camera?
(i think the last camera is more difficult because it will be difficult to get the correct aperture values above f/8, in case i want to shoot f/32 etc. - the smallest aperture on the canon G10)

yes
maybe
possibly
yes

Try the search engine, its fabulous.

[Shen45]

Or simply learn about light and use a real exposure meter.

[Frank Petronio]

I wonder if Welly will ever shoot after all of this? I'd be scared to go outside after asking that question and getting such passionate responses.... someone might shoot me if I do it wrong!

[Shen45]

:) Well we are all friends here and other than crocs or bears there isn't much need for a gun. My comment is based on many photographers who have grown up on a diet of plastic and ones and zeroes. There are a large number of men and women photographer who take wonderful fully automatic [no matter how manual the digital camera is] pixelgraphs but have a poor or often confused understanding of light and how it reacts with film. Sure if anyone cannot afford an individual meter or doesn't have one then of course use the digital camera. Still after writing this it really matters zip what I think on this matter and people will find their own methodologies.

[sergiob]

I find much easier to develop a sense of exposure for colour film since development is generally a fixed issue. Just test your film to know your range, write it down in the back of your brain and that's it. With BW you have the development variables come into play.

[ki6mf]

This was from a post from Gem Singer in Texas. If refers to Black and White film

I would add one note if doing the trial and error method take a high ISO film of you choice. Do the Tests at half the ISO if shadows are not dark increase your ISO. For Example use HP5 at ISO 200 and go to ISO 400 if shadows are closer in of a 18 % Gray card than a darker shadow. The Step by step link at the bottom of the pose does talk about this if you follow those directions.

Original Post : http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=56334
Aim the one degree spot at the darkest area in the scene where you still want to see some detail. Close down two stops.

You have just placed the shadow area in Zone III.

That's usually the proper exposure for the scene.

Now, aim the spot at the brightest area in the scene.

If it's a five stop range between the darkest and brightest reading, use normal development.

Less than five, increase development.

More than five, decrease development.

No need to take a whole series of meter readings and average them. That's defeating the purpose.
Just make certain that you have given enough exposure to get some detail in the shadows. Then, develop for the highlights.

That's the Zone System in a nut shell.

For a Step by step guide to exposure and film speed index calculation use the Film Speed Test and Developing Test from Jerry Orabona Photography http://www.jerryo.com/teaching.htm

[Brian Ellis]

Thank you, I'll go take a look for that book.

Ta!

I'd strongly urge you to forget that book at this point. Not that it isn't a good book, it is. But it's way more complicated than you need right now. I took two week-long workshops from the late Phil Davis, the author of the book, and used the BTZS system that he teaches in his workshops and in the book for many years. With all that the book still wasn't easy to follow.

If you start using the zone system (which is really what the book is about, the title is misleading as Phil himself used to say) there are much easier introductions to it than that. The chapters in Ansel Adams' book "The Negative" on the zone system are one good place to learn the system and they're much eaiser to understand and apply for someone new to spot metering than BTZS in my opinion.

[Preston]

If you start using the zone system (which is really what the book is about, the title is misleading as Phil himself used to say) there are much easier introductions to it than that. The chapters in Ansel Adams' book "The Negative" on the zone system are one good place to learn the system and they're much eaiser to understand and apply for someone new to spot metering than BTZS in my opinion.

I agree with Brian. The explanation of the Zone Systems in St. Ansel's book is pretty straightforward. It is the reference I used when I wanted to learn the Zone System.

--P