Questions-24 Inch Dagor

[alan-salsman]

I HAVE A BRASS LENS MADE IN BERLIN BY C.P.GOERZ.MADE BETWEEN 1898 AND 1904,I THINK.IT DOES NOT HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER,NOR
DOES IT HAVE THE F-STOP OR FOCAL LENGTH MARKED ON THE LENS.IT IS MARKED-DOUBLE ANASTIGMAT SERIES III NO.9-WHICH MAKES IT A F7.7 24 INCH DOGOR.QUESTION 1-THE STOPS ON THIS BARREL LENS ARE AS FOLLOWS-6-9-12-24-48-96-192-384-768.anyone know what this scale is?It does not seem to be american stops since there is no f-16.question2-since it is known to be a f7.7 can it be remarked with current f-stops.question 3-this lens needs to be taken apart and cleaned.that being the the case should i have it coated at that time-would those of you doing ulf black and white have any prefernce. question 4 anyone seen a dagor without a serial#? since this dagor is not marked as such it would seem to date it prior to 1904-any care to correct my thinking- please feel free thanks.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Alan,

the serial # should be on the barrel on the opposite side from the markings you posted. It would be most valuable in it's as-is condition. The aperture scale was used by Goerz, a member here, 'C.P. Goerz', posted the conversion quite some time ago, maybe you can find it with a search here.

Hopefully it has it's flange with it

[alan-salsman]

Thanks Paul If this lens ever had a serial# I cannot tell it.Mayby its a 100 year hot lens? It does seen to be complete except for possibly a ring for the flange. I will have to give some thought to its value as is.

[Arne Croell]

1) That seems to be the Stolze aperture system, more information here (last post): http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=789&highlight=stolze
2)Yes, see the post mentioned above.
3)Recoating will be difficult and expensive. A Dagor consists of course of 2 cemented triplets. Given the age, the cement is Canada balsam. Since a hard coating needs somewhat higher temperatures, one would either risk misalignement or worse in the process (see http://www.focalpointlens.com/fp_intro.html), or the groups have to be "de-cemented", then coated, and recemented.

[Steven Tribe]

The only goerz lens I have seen without serial numbers (front AND rear cells) were those mounted in the Goertz XL shutter - where the outer rims are about flush with the shutter face. The numbers were stamped on this shutter face. So perhaps this was mounted in some kind of Goerz equipment like a episcope/horizontal enlarger/process camera?

Coating is a very bad idea.

[GPS]

Coating of this old lens is always suspicious for an informed buyer, raising a natural question - how well was it done (i.e. the reassembly)?
A good lens hood, possibly dedicated for the lens focal length and the film format in use will give a better result on pictures.

[alan-salsman]

Steven--------This lens matches exactly the cut view of a Goerv Double Anastigmat in a 1904 add.so I would say it is a camera lens.---------GPS-the proper lens shade is good advice.Two things about this lens annoy me,it has the faintest of cleaning marks on the front element-no affect on film.And on the back of the front lens There is a a1.5 mm spot of very fine dust-probably from the inside of the lens.The guys that made this lens loved machine tools It is screwed-glued and doubletaped.I would mot even consider trying to take the elements out of it.

[GPS]

...
Two things about this lens annoy me,it has the faintest of cleaning marks on the front element-no affect on film.And on the back of the front lens There is a a1.5 mm spot of very fine dust-probably from the inside of the lens.The guys that made this lens loved machine tools It is screwed-glued and doubletaped.I would mot even consider trying to take the elements out of it.

Well, unlike the faint cleaning mark, the 1.5mm dust particle is more than 100 years old! If that can console you...:)

[Steven Tribe]

Alan - Goerz used ordinary photographic lenses (with iris) on their "apparatuses" - in common with Zeiss and some English makers who found a growing market for their episcopes etc. The market for camera mounted 24" fairly wide angled lenses was quite limited.

[alan-salsman]

Steven-----Is the goertv XL shutter one of the old style shutters damped with a little air chamber like a volite?Never heard of it . The 24 inch is truly a wide angle. The 1904 specs. say at f35 it will sharply cover a plate 24x30 inches.

[Steven Tribe]

No - the goerz xl was standard "clockwork" design with dials on the front face. Used as both an independent shutter but also as part of the square front (built in) in Goerz cameras like coat and vest tenax. Only small sizes and probably made only after the introduction of names rather than series no. around 1904.

[Tracy Storer]

As other posters have pointed out, the apertures are marked in the Stolze system, coating will require de-cementing and re-cementing, and really, just a great lens as-is for someone wanting to shoot B+W ULF....I had a chance to use one of these several years ago....I was doing color Polaroid 20x24 so the contrast was a bit low...for B+W negs=just goose your development a bit, coverage like mad. Wish it was mine.

[imagedowser]

Pictures? So we can dream about it, tonight. Mounted on my 8/20.

[alan-salsman]

My son and daughter just finished college midterms,I will see if I can get them to use the D word and post some photos. Some people come to Alaska to search for gold nuggets but I found DAGORS.Actually the 24 came from a camera store in N.Y for 200 dollars-real close to gold. I was in Juneau AK looking at some camera gear,after taking my offer he reached into a box and handing me a 14 inch dagor, and said I will throw this in to! I almost fell over. 4 pictures of the 14@24 DAGOR

[Tracy Storer]

For general use, especially with big cameras, I have found series III Dagors to be VERY satisfactory...Good find, someday, when the stars are aligned, maybe I'll have a 24"Dagor.

[alan-salsman]

Tracy----The dagors have a look that I like very much.I am very tempted to try some 11x14 Silver Gelatin dry plates,some thing I have not yet tried.And I will have to move up.I once shot some chrome with the 14 inch and found them very nice.Did you shoot black and white or color with the 24 on the big polaroid? I am very happy to have the dagors, and expect them to keep me occupied for some time.----Alan

[Tracy Storer]

Alan, it was color, and I was shooting with Wegman, so the expectation was that the "look" would be consistent with his other work....the 600mm Fuji lens had been stolen from the Boston studio, so I borrowed the 24" Dagor from a friend.....beautiful, it just lacked the snap of the Fuji.

[sanking]

Tracy----The dagors have a look that I like very much.I am very tempted to try some 11x14 Silver Gelatin dry plates,some thing I have not yet tried.And I will have to move up.I once shot some chrome with the 14 inch and found them very nice.Did you shoot black and white or color with the 24 on the big polaroid? I am very happy to have the dagors, and expect them to keep me occupied for some time.----Alan

I think it would be a big mistake to have the lens coated. As others have pointed out, there is some danger in doing so, and I think you would also reduce the value of this particular lens. Coating some lenses makes sense, but not a very large Dagor which is perfectly useful as is. After all, even uncoated Dagors transmit about 88% of the light that enters the lens, which is plenty for B&W work.

Bear in mind that 24" Dagors, while not rare, are far from common, and this lens has significant value to ULF photographers.

Sandy King

[alan-salsman]

Sandy--- thanks I will keep the 24 as is based on the opinion of experienced ULF photographers. Having been a skilled and addicted chrome shooter for many years I find my self pulled toward ULF contacts,and will go as far in that direction as my wife and my wallet will allow.Perhaps a difficult journey but far better than Photo Shop.All my e-6 friends have long since gone digital so there is no one in this part of Alaska with any knowledge of his type of work,at least none that I know of. Hopefully when I get a lettle further along I will be able to get some training from people that know how.