Sinar F

[dfoo]

I see there is a Sinar F on ebay with no bids running currently at $200. Any thoughts on this camera? This would be my first 4x5. I want to use it for landscapes, and perhaps some architectural stuff. I plan to start with a 150mm lens, which I don't yet have :)

[Bob McCarthy]

Best deal in photography. Use one myself.

bob

[dfoo]

This one comes with a lensboard for a Copal #1 shutter. I guess 150mm use Copal #0, so I'd need a new lensboard. What boards are compatible? I'll also need to get some film holders. Are all 4x5 holders compatible?

[Drew Wiley]

Buy only real Sinar boards, not "Sinar/Horseman compatible", which don't always fit
actual Sinars.

[Gem Singer]

Sinar lens boards and 4x5 cut film holders are easily obtainable, new or previously owned.

When you are ready, contact me. I have an extra Sinar Copal 0 board and a few extra 4x5 film holders for sale.

Sinar F's are excellent cameras, and previously owned ones are selling for very reasonable prices these days.

[Frank Petronio]

Under $300 is a good deal so long as it is a functional camera. If you are patient sometimes you can snag an even better deal on an outfit. One spot to look out for on the F is that the plastic parts that secure the front standard to the rail can be cracked (or epoxied). The later F2 used a more robust attachment (but they usually are in the $500 range). Not all F front standards are cracked -- just something to watch for and probably confirm with the seller.

Most 4x5 film holders have been interchangeable since the 1930s except for some exotics. Try to get them five at a time because film is sold in 10 sheet boxes (or larger) and this way you can load an entire box at once. Be patient and you can usually get them for $7-8 each or less. Fidelity and Lisco are the most popular brands and most people prefer the newer plastic ones (only 40 years old!) over the older wooden ones.

[ki6mf]

I recommend the F2 model, I don't know which yours is. A good friend has one and uses an F2 in the field and they are great to work with and the mechanical computer works for getting swings and tilts aligned between the front and back standards! I personally shoot a wooden field camera however this can be a good deal.

[dfoo]

Its auction 300373447068. The seller says its a Sinar F.

[dfoo]

How does the camera mount to a tripod? Is the tripod mount integrated into the bottom of the rail? Will it attach to a standard manfrotto tripod?

[gevalia]

Just out of curiosity, do you guys use Sinar F/F2 for landscape work in the field? Not by-the-car but hiking? I find myself often hiking 8 hours with my 4x5 field. I always thought view cameras were cumbersome for field work. Please correct my naivate.

[Frank Petronio]

They aren't that heavy and you can fold them up, albeit not into a compact box. But especially for beginners a monorail is nice because they can actually see the movements more directly -- movements on field cameras can be "hidden". And they are going to be more rigid than most field cameras, less expensive, more versatile -- so as long as the guy isn't an ultra-light hiking nut, an inexpensive Sinar is an awfully nice way to start. Search past threads on hiking w Sinars, I even posted a diagram on how to fold them most efficiently.

Heck when I started they cost as much as a car and people would laugh in your face if you told them you wanted a Sinar to start out with -- they were the aspirational cameras.

To dfoo's question, not seeing the auction, but the standard Sinar will have a tripod mounting block that holds the rail and has the usual mounting screw hole on the bottom. Some people use these sort of like quick releases. They pair very nicely with the Sinar Pan-Tilt head (which costs more than your F, lol). Any tripod will work, so long as it is large enough for the size of the camera (ie not a cheap 35mm tripod).

I just looked at the auction. It looks like a normal stock Sinar F. When it ends just ask Henry's to substitute a Copal 0 board. Personally I would pass on a smoker's camera, as under a dark cloth it could be gross. There will be plenty of others coming up, often on this forum.

[Professional]

They aren't that heavy and you can fold them up, albeit not into a compact box. But especially for beginners a monorail is nice because they can actually see the movements more directly -- movements on field cameras can be "hidden". And they are going to be more rigid than most field cameras, less expensive, more versatile -- so as long as the guy isn't an ultra-light hiking nut, an inexpensive Sinar is an awfully nice way to start.

Heck when I started they cost as much as a car and people would laugh in your face if you told them you wanted a Sinar to start out with -- they were the aspirational cameras.

In the fact the first high end top camera i heard in the past rather than popular Canon/Nikon/Olympus,Sony... was Sinar, i even didn't hear about Mamiya and Hasselblad and so, it was in 2005, since that i read about photography i saw the other names in MF and LF, but was Sinar my dream and i thought i will never get it at all in my life if i get into photography, now i don't look at sinar, but really i went to a studio 5 months ago in my country and he has Sinar P3 i think http://www.jx-camera.com/jinxiang/bookpic/20073181695196909.jpg that made my mind blown away for its design and look and really confused if it is worthy for studio.

[welly]

I'm interested in a Sinar camera, and have been looking at a Sinar F2 on ebay also. The seller has a number of Sinar P cameras for sale as well. What are the differences between the two types and is one type preferable to another?

[Armin Seeholzer]

The P and P2 is a heavy and fantastic studio camera and not really for the field use.
Some use it for architectural things almost out of the car!

Cheers Armin

[rdenney]

Here is where I show a picture of my Sinar F mounted on a tripod. It has bag bellows in this picture. I also attached a picture showing the "mobile office" roll-around that I carry it around in. As you can see, it's quite a compact package for a monorail. That case is about half the size of the hard case that holds my Calumet 45nx (Cambo SC).

The center tripod adapter should come with the camera. You mound that on top of a standard tripod head. I have it on a Manfrotto 410 geared head in the picture, but now I have it on a Sinar tilt head, which is expensive but more compact and highly functional.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=526151&postcount=551

This camera is extremely useful and handy in the field. It is not my first monorail (actually, it's my fourth) but it is by far the easiest to use and though you can flex it if you apply force it will always return to exactly the spot where you locked it down.

I do prefer the F2 front standard, but the F front standard is completely functional.

I have not had the experience of cheapie lens boards not fitting at all, though I did have to apply flocking paper to the back of a couple of them--they were too shiny.

Sinar cameras were used by pros and most have seen a lot of action. Expect to have wear issues, such as centering detent balls that have worn grooves in the standard frame or some roughness in the detent groove that you may feel when applying lateral shifts. I've seen grooves worn in the vertical rise columns, too. The cameras still worked pretty well even with these issues, and they affect smoothness of operation, not basic functionality. The F2's improved design largely eliminates these wear points.

What I like about the Sinar is its utter flexibility. The same camera can work ideally for a 47mm lens and for a 360mm lens--few cameras work at all at both extremes, let alone work well. The easily added rail extensions allow the basic rail to be short for packing convenience, but easy to extend in the field as needed to whatever length. The standard bellows will stretch to 22", and can be used as a compendium shade when you are using the bag bellows. The mix-and-match nature of Sinar parts is super useful in the field.

Rick "who has become a real Sinar fanboy" Denney

[uhner]

Just out of curiosity, do you guys use Sinar F/F2 for landscape work in the field? Not by-the-car but hiking? I find myself often hiking 8 hours with my 4x5 field. I always thought view cameras were cumbersome for field work. Please correct my naivate.

Yes, a friend of mine uses an F2 4x5 or a Norma 5x7 on long hikes in difficult terrain, and I use a Norma 4x5 or 5x7. Naturally, they are more bulky and a bit heavier than purpose built field cameras - but they are not hard to lug around, and we have room for food and some basic wilderness equipment.

On occasion I even use a Norma 8x10 way out in the backcountry. I do not find the weight of this camera to be a problem, but it is quite bulky and I have to carry the bellows and the film holders in a separate shoulder bag.

[Bjorn Nilsson]

As this is supposed to be your first Large Format Camera, there are few, if any, cameras which will be better suited for you. The F/F1/F2 cameras are very easy to understand and as Frank P. pointed out, you can see every different movement that you can make with it. There are a couple of gadgets (well, scales really...) which will help you in deciding how much to move or which aperture to use. More on that in the manual or on the 'net.
If you are in a hurry to go out hiking with it, go ahead. You can put it into pieces (the back, front, rail, a lens or two ...) which will pack up quite nicely. Even though it is bulkier and a pound (or so) heavier than a wood "field camera", you will definitely get better shots with it as it's easier to learn and use. I.e. the ease of use will support you to focus on the picture, not the camera.

//Björn

[dfoo]

Sweet. I won the auction. ~$250. Now for a lens, lens board some holders, and a loupe. I guess a dark cloth at some point won't hurt :)

[Bjorn Nilsson]

Congratulations and welcome to the club...

Instead of a dark cloth (18'th century) you can get a modern "binocular viewer" which either is just a plate which connects via an extra set of bellows to the back of the camera. ...Or... a "box with a sliding mirror" version, which give you an upright picture (instead of upside down). I have both and use the mirror version at home/by the car. The viewer plate comes with me in the backpack if/when I decide to go hiking.
These items are standard Sinar items. Just look them up on the 'net. Ridiculously expensive when bought new, but they are quite common on the used market.

//Björn

[gevalia]

You know, this sounds a little interesting to me. I see an F2 comes with a rail but that you can buy extension rails. Sounds like my 90mm Grandagon would be fine but what would be the long end of the focal length? On the standard rail? And on the extension rail? Is there a Sinar to linhof board so I can use the same boards I use on my Chamonix?

[dfoo]

Thanks Bjorn! I'll look those up.

[jan staller]

I have a Sinar F that I never use anymore, preferring a Cambo Wide DS for location work. As a field camera, the Sinar can be folded up by detaching one side of the bellows and folding down the standards but that is a slow operation, especially when compared to a field camera. A Cambo wide or a fold up field camera, metal or wood has to be preferable for hiking. I am using a Sinar F 8x10 out of the back seat of my car. It's not convenient, but the camera was about a 3rd of the price of a Deardorff, for example.

[dfoo]

I also just won a bag bellows for $49 :) I guess that means I need to get a wide angle lens! How low can I go with a Sinar F?

[jan staller]

you might want to bid on extra rail components so that you can use longer lenses. Certainly with the standard rail, you can put on a 150. A 90 or 75 would be a good lens for WA.

[dfoo]

What is the limit with the standard rail?

Edit: Ok, I was just reading http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-long.html which says

"The standard rule-of-thumb is that you need about 1.2 times the bellows extention of your longest lens for normal subjects and 2 times for closeups. With a telephoto, you need about 0.9 times the focal length for normal subjects or 1.7 times for closeups. With wooden field cameras, you can get up to about 2" more extension by tilting forward as much as possible with the front base tilt and using the front axis tilt to return the lens standard to vertical. You can also probably fabricate a lens board that extends the lens forward from the lens standard by a few inches and a few companies make recessed lens boards that can be reversed for some extra extension (I've heard of people using a 300mm lens on a Toyo metal field camera this way)."

So for a 210mm lens (about 8") I guess its 8" extension at infinity, 9.6" for "normal subjects" and 16" for closeups. Is that correct? Assuming I get a longer rail (the 12" extension rail) would I need to get a different bellows?

edit (again): I find the answer in the first page of this thread:

"... The standard bellows will stretch to 22", and can be used as a compendium shade when you are using the bag bellows. The mix-and-match nature of Sinar parts is super useful in the field."

[rdenney]

I also just won a bag bellows for $49 :) I guess that means I need to get a wide angle lens! How low can I go with a Sinar F?

An F will go down to a 65 with a flat lensboard, easily. It will focus a 47 with a flat board and bag bellows, but the bellows will rub and you'll have to make sure there aren't any wrinkles at all or it will push the standards out of alignment. Much better with a 47 is to get one of the cheapie square-recess recessed boards on ebay, and paint the back flat black. Mine retains good movements with the 47 and the recessed board, using the bag bellows.

The basic rail is 12 inches, and you'll be able to use a 210 easily. A 240 will work, but you'll have to pull the standards right to the ends and you'll have little close-up capability. A 6" extension makes it easy-schmeazy. I have not yet tested my new 12" lens on the camera, but it should focus to infinity using the 12+6 rail. If it doesn't, I'll get another 6" extension. The extensions have the red handles and will extend either end of the base rail. A range of extenders are available, but the 6-inchers are easy to pack. One of the Sinar's best features compared to the Calumet/Cambo is the short rail that allows me to use a short lens without poking a hole in my chest (or being in the picture), and still be able to switch to a 12" lens by throwing on an extension or two and switching the bag bellows for standard bellows. That takes all of about 30 seconds, and uses stuff easily carried along. Few cameras have that kind of flexibility.

Rick "whose F with bag bellows cost a hundred bucks more" Denney

[dfoo]

I picked up a 6" rail. That should be good to start! I have a lens with a non-standard shutter mount size. What is the recommended approach? Make my own lensboard and drill a suitable size hole in it? Or buy a Sinar blank, or possibly a pre-drilled board and then enlarge the hole. How tricky are the boards to make?

[Frank Petronio]

You can simply drill a board with a small hole out to be larger, or have someone else do it for you. There are third-party lensboards on eBay that are a bit less expensive but they may or may not fit as well. It's probably not economical to make one or two lensboards yourself, but plywood built up to be the right thickness, painted matte black on the interior will work.

I've also filed holes out to be a few mm's larger when needed. I suppose a hack saw might work too.

Hopefully your camera won't smell too bad! Fabreeze the bellows, I doubt the other parts will hold the smell. If it is really bad, you can always buy another bellows.

[dfoo]

Making a board is probably pretty simple to me. I have lots of ply due to another hobby of mine (model airplanes). I'm not sure how the board attaches to the front standard, but if it is too thick will it put the focus off? Or is that simply dealt with in the process of focusing the camera?

[Frank Petronio]

You'll see how simple it is once you get the camera, but I'd just watch ebay or post a WTB on this forum, they aren't very expensive.

You can put anything you want upfront, if it's in focus on the ground glass then it will be in focus on your film.

[Bjorn Nilsson]

I also just won a bag bellows for $49 :) I guess that means I need to get a wide angle lens! How low can I go with a Sinar F?

First, get a 150mm lens (Well, 135 is OK too, as well as a 180 or even a 210mm, depending upon personal taste.) as a starter lens. There is plenty to learn and you will learn about the basics on how to adjust the camera much better with only one "normal" lens. While it's nice to have a few lenses, you will find that the whole process of large format photography in itself makes you concentrate more on the camera initally and after a while you will turn your attention to the subject. All of this with one single lens.
Apart from that a second wide-angle lens is a matter of personal taste, but a 90mm is plenty wide. Do remember that with the typical 90mm (Super Angulon or Grandagon or similar) you will have a generous image circle which will allow you to shift the picture up (most common) without disturbing the perspective. By the way, when you buy that wide angle lens, don't forget to find a fresnel lens for the ground glass. Without the fresnel you will end up in that common question: "My ground glass is too dark, will it be any better with that superlarge and superheavy f/4.5 90mm lens?" to which my standard answer have always been: "Get a fresnel! (Your f/8 lens is plenty sharp and plenty good.)".
I recon that you can find somewhere in this message that you don't need that many lenses, so a third longer lens could be a 240-300mm lens (depending on the length of your normal lens). But that would be by 2011 or so... :)
Don't get me wrong here, I do want you to have great fun with your new Sinar. But there is plenty to learn and you don't need too many boxes of stuff to find the hidden pleasure of large format photography. One of the things you may learn is taking the time to look at the scene/subject long enough to make the very best picture of it. LF photography is the main key to doing this, as setting up the camera takes a few minutes if you're fast. In terms of quality, it's quite easy to achieve similar quality with e.g. a Hasselblad in fractions of the time needed with an LF camera, so most of us don't use LF cameras for superior picture quality, rather something else. (You will find out it's very easy to goof up with an LF camera, much easier than with any other kind of camera you've encountered.) But again, have fun and learn from the mistakes.

//Björn

[dfoo]

Thanks for the advice Bjorn. I have a 150mm and 220mm lens. I'll get the wide angle later :) Looks like 90mm is a good choice!

[rdenney]

Making a board is probably pretty simple to me. I have lots of ply due to another hobby of mine (model airplanes). I'm not sure how the board attaches to the front standard, but if it is too thick will it put the focus off? Or is that simply dealt with in the process of focusing the camera?

The plywood will have to be very thin. If you try to route down the edge to fit under the clips, you'll be down to only one veneer and it will crack. You'll also need a slot routed in the edge for the light-trap ridge. You'd have to use plywood intended for model-building, but then that slot would likely weaken it too much. It wold be easier to buy a cheapie off-brand or Horseman board aluminum with a smaller hole and drill it yourself.

I had to do this for my Ilex No. 4 shutters. I drilled the hole with a drill press and a hole saw. When I installed a flange, it required me to slightly enlarge the hole, which I did with a drum-sander attachment for my drill press.

Rick "who hasn't had trouble with off-brand boards for Sinar" Denney

[dfoo]

I just received the Sinar F. From what I can tell everything looks good, except the center plastic piece that would attach the rail to the tripod has a crack at the top. Henry's didn't say anything about that in the auction, and I'm wondering whether that matters?

[Richard Raymond]

No problem with the rail ring. It is supposed to have a "crack" in it. This allows you to get the ring onto the rail. The rail clamp then goes around the ring and tightens it against the rail. If the ring was solid and made "just to fit the rail" then it would loosen as it wore out with use.
Ric

[dfoo]

Ah, I thought it was broken :) I'm very excited to get the remainder of the stuff now so I can take some pictures! Its definitely not the lightest thing in the world though.

[Bjorn Nilsson]

Ah, I thought it was broken :) I'm very excited to get the remainder of the stuff now so I can take some pictures! Its definitely not the lightest thing in the world though.

Eh no, it isn't. But on the other hand once you lock the controls down it's very stable and you can easily use a long lens (e.g. 300mm) without any risk of the camera giving up or flexing on you. The longest lens I've used with an F is a 480mm (Apo-Ronar). It took an extra 30cm rail, an extra bellows and an intermedate bellows frame, but the camera was steady.

//Björn

[dfoo]

After looking at the camera for a while tonight I found an issue. On the rear there are two levers which I guess are supposed to raise the ground glass so a film holder can be inserted. When I press the levers the back raises unevenly. I took off the ground glass holder and took a good look. The issue is that some teeth are stripped off one lever, meaning that two bars which push the ground glass off the rear standard move unevenly...

Is this is a big deal? It looks pretty easy to replace the gears, assuming they are available.

[Bob McCarthy]

After looking at the camera for a while tonight I found an issue. On the rear there are two levers which I guess are supposed to raise the ground glass so a film holder can be inserted. When I press the levers the back raises unevenly. I took off the ground glass holder and took a good look. The issue is that some teeth are stripped off one lever, meaning that two bars which push the ground glass off the rear standard move unevenly...

Is this is a big deal? It looks pretty easy to replace the gears, assuming they are available.

As long as the spring back holds the film holder snuggly in the correct position, no harm.

Use your thumb and finger to spread the spring back, not the levers to insert the film holder.

bob

[B.S.Kumar]

Here is where I show a picture of my Sinar F mounted on a tripod. It has bag bellows in this picture. I also attached a picture showing the "mobile office" roll-around that I carry it around in. As you can see, it's quite a compact package for a monorail. That case is about half the size of the hard case that holds my Calumet 45nx (Cambo SC).

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=526151&postcount=551

Rick "who has become a real Sinar fanboy" Denney

Rick,

I couldn't find the "mobile office" roll-around on the Staples website. Do you have a product code?

Thanks,
Kumar

[rdenney]

Rick,

I couldn't find the "mobile office" roll-around on the Staples website. Do you have a product code?

Turns out it was Office Depot. Here it is on their web site:

Foray Mobile Workmate (http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/536055/Foray-Mobile-Workmate-Black-Gray/?cm_cat=2000000010)

http://static.www.odcdn.com/pictures/us/od/sk/lg/536055_sk_lg.jpg

The insert compartment on the left holds about six lenses on Sinar boards. The hard plastic file holder I discarded. The internal divider separates a small area in the back where I put the spare sets of bellows and the Fuji holder, plus the Pentax meter. The big space left in the middle is where the camera goes, with the rail sitting on top of the divider and the lens compartment. The only PITA is getting at the lenses in the bottom part of the separate insert in which I put the lenses. I keep film in the outside pockets. There would be room for four or six 4x5 holders there instead of those. Here's the picture of it with the camera in it from the "Show your camera" thread:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=33044&d=1257744524

It is a compromise, to be sure. But so far it's the best I've come up with. I have a Sinar Rainbow Case and don't much like it, though I'll use it when I need that sort of protection.

Rick "always confusing Staples and Office Depot" Denney

[B.S.Kumar]

Rick,

Thanks for the quick reply. Think it will hold a Sinar P and Betterlight setup? No film! Now to find out if I can get it here in Japan, or see if they'll ship.

Cheers,
Kumar

[rdenney]

Rick,

Thanks for the quick reply. Think it will hold a Sinar P and Betterlight setup? No film! Now to find out if I can get it here in Japan, or see if they'll ship.

Cheers,
Kumar

Doubtful on the P--my F2 front standard is just nearly too tall and causes the top to bulge quite a bit. I'm afraid a P will be too tall, but I haven't compared them side-by-side.

Also, it seems like the P consumes more rail space than the F.

Rick "not seeing any extra room in this setup" Denney

[B.S.Kumar]

Thanks, Rick. I'll see what I can find.

Kumar

[Photomax]

I am selling my Sinar (F1, late, w/ black rail), with normal bellows, wide bellows, 210 Sinaron lens, 65/4 Grandagon lens, black extension rail, bino viewer housing, molded steel system case, filters, Fresnel ground glass, etc...

Max