Baryta vs non-baryta inkjet papers: archival stability??

[chris jordan]

Hi guys, I just finished testing several of the latest greatest inkjet papers, and my two personal faves were Ilford Gold Fibre Silk (a baryta paper) in first place, and the new Canson Platine Fibre Rag, which is not a baryta product, in second place.

The white point of the Canson paper is lower by a smidge, but otherwise the papers, surfaces, etc., are close enough that the difference is negligible to my eye.

So then, the question of archival stability. The Canson is an acid-free rag paper (the only one of the bunch), has no optical brighteners, and claims to be made "without chemical substances that contribute to premature deterioration."

Does anyone have any educated guesses as to how this compares archivally with the baryta papers, the Ilford in particular?

[percepts]

I don't think the paper is the issue. I think the dried ink will start to flake off long before the paper deteriorates significantly. All that constant warming and cooling and humidity changes will affect the surface layer over time and that surface layer is a dried pigment layer which is designed along with the paper not to soak into the paper so that you don't get bleed when it prints. Bit of a dilemma that one...
I could be wrong though but then why do people put acrylic varnish over inkjets on canvas?

[Tyler Boley]

until there are actual tests, probably by Aardenberg, there's no real way of knowing outside of marketing hype. As a side note though, the Canson you liked.. looks like they have some new baryta papers as well... just to complicate matters.
I honestly didn't think to recommend the Ilford, since the prints I've seen that have done in the past were on cold base papers. I like the look of it, and it's performance, but had a lot of handling problems with rolls. Sheets, no problem.
Tyler

[Oren Grad]

I don't know that there's anything useful that can be said on this, other than to follow Wilhelm and Aardenburg and see whether they test the papers you're interested in.

If you join Aardenburg's membership program - not expensive - you can have a voice in their choice of materials to test.

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4117c3Vic2NyMQ==

[Ed Richards]

Funny how we did not care about this for silver photos, beyond the drills for washing and toning, but that was about the image, not the paper. The baryta papers, at least Harmon, appear to be about the same as traditional silver papers minus the silver. I am also of the opinion that the inks are really the issue, esp. with color. If the print gets enough light or other harsh environmental conditions the ink is going to shift before the paper goes. I think we are at the point where the issue is perception, and the art market seems to have made the shift. They really made the shift 40 years ago when collectors and museums starting buying color prints, they just did not realize it.:-) Except for some color transfers, which are about as good a current inkjet prints, none of the color stuff was remotely stable compared with current inkjet technology. But then Pollack's and Rauschenberg's paintings are also falling apart.

Ars longa, vita brevis - but only for ceramics and marble?

[Darin Boville]

Ars longa, vita brevis - but only for ceramics and marble?

But digital is forever. Maybe.

--Darin

[neil poulsen]

Chris, What did you like about the Gold Fibre Silk, and how did it compare to the Harman Baryta Fiber Gloss paper? (Did you try the latter?)

There's also that Wilhelm Digital Research guy, who does a lot of the accelerated testing.

[Kirk Gittings]

My 2cs Neil. In terms of b&w. I really liked the GFS at first but once I hung a show with it, I came to hate the cool base color as Tyler noted. It looks drab. Of the two I now much prefer the recent Harman BFG, which has a whiter more neutral base color. I don't print color. Is the base color more noticeable to b&w printers? I almost never hear color printers discussing base color.

[Oren Grad]

Funny how we did not care about this for silver photos, beyond the drills for washing and toning, but that was about the image, not the paper...

Ars longa, vita brevis - but only for ceramics and marble?

The widely-held belief that if only you fix your silver prints carefully, tone them in Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1+20 for a couple of minutes and then wash them thoroughly, you're guaranteed an artifact for the ages, is quite mistaken. There's a lot more to it than that, and still all sorts of things we don't know about the silver gelatin papers we're printing on and their possible failure modes under different environmental conditions. But paper is always fragile over the very long term.

Anyway, color shifts in the ink, and base discoloration and shifts in perceived ink color attributable to decay of OBAs in those papers that have them, are the likely early failure modes for pigment inkjet prints on a decent base. Mark McCormick-Goodhart, who's running the Aardenburg operation, evidently thinks that Wilhelm's tests substantially underestimate the degree of fading likely to be experienced under real-world conditions. He has his own alternative test approach.

Anyone who is seriously worried about this needs to follow both the Wilhelm and Aardenburg tests closely, read up about ways prints can deteriorate and how that relates in general to storage and display conditions, and make their own judgments. Nobody has any definitive answers.

So yeah, only for ceramics and marble (but watch that acid rain)...

[JeffKohn]

The Canson is an acid-free rag paper (the only one of the bunch)Not sure what you mean by this. There are lots of acid- and lignen-free inkjet papers, many of them are cotton rag and some are alpha-cellulose, and all should hold up quite well. Variability in longevity with these papers is more likely to come down to the ink-receptive coatings on the papers, as well as the inks themselves.

[Ed Richards]

What I really meant was that generally artist have left longevity up to the curators and collectors - it is interesting that this is now a topic for artists. I think the current stuff is good enough to not worry about - since collectors were willing to buy type C prints, there should few questions about current inkjet stuff.

[bob carnie]

I print on ink and silver both from digital files.

The silver prints go through all the steps dev, stop, fix , fix, hypo clear wash.
After these steps we also sepia for highlights and selenium for shadows.
This process is the same as any traditional fibre print of the past made on enlarger.

With Black and White Output.
Our position is that if the work is for gallery walls and eventual sale to collectors/buyers of prints we will go the silver route and print either from the digital files or work from original neg with enlargers.
If the work has commercial applications or is not being resold to collectors/buyers we will consider ink which is a much more simple process to put through our shop.

Visually both processes can be adjusted to look exactly the same.

With Colour Output

We have no preference between ink and RA4, they both seem to have devotees for their particular look.
We are now in the process of separating colour images into CMYk black and white negatives to be registered back together and will be printing colour gum for some of out colour workers who are concerned about the longevity of ink or RA4.
The learning curve is extremely steep as we are working with old and new methods to come up with a look that will satisfy me. Trying to tie up all the loose ends to have a ongoing predictable stable process is difficult to do and still keep my business afloat in these economic times.

Keith Carter is doing this in the mid west on gum, and Todd Ganger from Seattle is doing this with carbon, both workers are getting amazing results.

[Bob McCarthy]

I print on ink and silver both from digital files.

The silver prints go through all the steps dev, stop, fix , fix, hypo clear wash.
After these steps we also sepia for highlights and selenium for shadows.
This process is the same as any traditional fibre print of the past made on enlarger.



What is the process that takes digital files to silver directly like an enlarger?

Are we talking making contact printing negatives on an printer?

bob

[percepts]

What is the process that takes digital files to silver directly like an enlarger?

Are we talking making contact printing negatives on an printer?

bob

Ilford Harmon make a digital fibre paper ( not for inkjets ) . This is a traditional fibre base paper but the silver halide emulsion has been prepared especially for use in laser printers such as Lambdas and lightjets. The output from laser can then be processed in trays in the normal way. i.e. its exactly the same as your ilford mgiv except you use a laser to expose the paper instead of your traditional enlarger.

Not cheap though...

[Steven Barall]

Jon Cone has long held that Wilhelm is way overestimating the permanence of inks and papers. It comes down to what your acceptable amount of fading is.