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Robert A. Zeichner
30-Nov-2009, 16:36
I know many of you have discussed this before, but a friend of mine sent the Kodak president an email and I thought I would share this as some of you might want to follow suit. Here goes:

"I am a professional fine arts 8x10 film user. I have for over thirty years used your fine films. About a little over a year ago you stopped packaging T-max 100 and 400 in the normal 50 sheet boxes and instead are now using 10 sheet boxes. Let me explain why this is a big mistake and I will use myself as an example. When I go on a shoot I normally take with me 100 sheets of film which in the past fit into two boxes that measured 2 5/8 inches in height.

That same 100 sheets of film which is now packaged 10 sheets per box (the same box that you used to package 25 sheets in) now measures 8 inches in height! I normally fly so I have no choice but to take the film with me as a carry on. In the past I would not only be able to carry on the film but my lenses, light meter and camera as well. But now, if I carried the ten boxes, I would have to put my lenses, light meter and camera in the hold. I never would trust this costly, fragile equipment out of my sight so what I have been doing is to repackage the ten boxes into two old 50 sheet boxes. By now I am running out of these old boxes to use as they become beat up. When you go through security and have the film X-rayed, if the boxes are sealed the security folks don't question me but if they have been opened and especially if they are old boxes they do. The last trip when I was retuning home through the L.A. airport they wanted to see what was in the opened boxes and I had a very tough time explaining what was inside and why I didn't want to open the boxes. This would not have happened if I had new sealed boxes instead of my old reused tacky boxes. Ten boxes really draw attention while two don't!

Your competitor ILFORD packages their film in 25 sheet boxes and their price is less - perhaps because they are saving in the cost of so many boxes and packaging.

There is another thing to consider, in the past I would purchase a case of film at a time which I would place in my freezer and use over the next several months. Now I can't, because it would take up too much room to do this. As a result I am now purchasing smaller quantities at a time - just what I can use in a short period of time. So you are in-effect losing out of up front purchases - think of it as a free loan to Kodak. It amounts to many hundreds of dollars - so it is not insignificant!

I am not the Lone Ranger in my thinking - as I talk to other photographers they too can't figure out why you are doing this. Many are moving to ILFORD film - but some of us have been hoping that you would like in the past (you made this same mistake in the past) change your mind and go back to the 50 sheet boxes. PLEASE!"

jeroldharter
30-Nov-2009, 17:38
Someone here told me that two foil packs of film will fit in a single box and that is true which reduces the bulk by 50%. So I am OK with that and now place 2 packs of 10 sheets in each box when I travel. The price is now more painful than the space!

Richard M. Coda
30-Nov-2009, 18:00
You would think Kodak would try and be more "green" by using less packaging. Correct me if I'm wrong... the 10 sheet box is the same size as the old 25 sheet box.

My college roommate was a VP of film sales for Kodak for many years (his dad was a Kodak lifer). He got canned maybe 5 or 6 years ago. He was a brilliant marketer, though. Fast forward... Kodak hired him back last year... he is now "Director, World Wide Marketing Communications". Wish I could get some gifts from him.

Mike1234
30-Nov-2009, 18:23
There's nothing "green" about analog photography. :D

Robert A. Zeichner
1-Dec-2009, 04:37
You would think Kodak would try and be more "green" by using less packaging. Correct me if I'm wrong... the 10 sheet box is the same size as the old 25 sheet box.

My college roommate was a VP of film sales for Kodak for many years (his dad was a Kodak lifer). He got canned maybe 5 or 6 years ago. He was a brilliant marketer, though. Fast forward... Kodak hired him back last year... he is now "Director, World Wide Marketing Communications". Wish I could get some gifts from him.

Any chance you could forward him my friends email as posted above?

Richard M. Coda
1-Dec-2009, 10:23
I will email him the link, and copy the post in the body.

Drew Wiley
1-Dec-2009, 13:06
Mike - the analog film and chem industry might not be "green", but it doesn't even come close to the amount of serious hazardous waste being generated by the electronics and computer industries, which is even more aggravated by the rapid
obsolescence of many the gadgets themselves. Both in disposal and in actual mfg,
the digital revolution involves chemicals and compounds which would terrify the
average film chemist.

BILL3075
1-Dec-2009, 13:06
I have to agree completely with Robert. It's absurd that Kodak would reduce the box size to 10 sheets per box.

Perhaps a short "Declaration" to the appropriate Kodak person or persons on this subject would be appropriate. However, it should be done with as many LF photographers 'signing on' with their 'signatures' to it.

Anyway, my 2 cents,

BILL

Mike1234
1-Dec-2009, 13:15
Mike - the analog film and chem industry might not be "green", but it doesn't even come close to the amount of serious hazardous waste being generated by the electronics and computer industries, which is even more aggravated by the rapid
obsolescence of many the gadgets themselves. Both in disposal and in actual mfg,
the digital revolution involves chemicals and compounds which would terrify the
average film chemist.

Yeah... I was just being facetious regarding an earlier "green" comment. :D

Darin Boville
1-Dec-2009, 14:04
If the Kodak "Director, World Wide Marketing Communications" is reading this...

I'm new to 8x10 and would very much prefer 25-sheet boxes of the TMax products. Or 20-sheet boxes--as posted above that may require only minimal changes on Kodak's end--just put two packages in the same box with a different label.

--Darin

Bruce Watson
1-Dec-2009, 15:42
I normally fly so I have no choice but to take the film with me as a carry on.

Um... your friend needs to learn about UPS and FedEx. I haven't dared put my film into TSA's inept hands since they screwed up a 50 sheet box of 5x4 Tri-X for me years ago. Now I send the film ahead via UPS or FedEx completely outside the TSA system. Not a problem.

That said, I agree that 10 sheet boxes is stupid. None of the end-user customers want this. But apparently the stores and Kodak do. I wonder who'll win that fight? :(

George Stewart
1-Dec-2009, 17:33
I stopped using Kodak's 8x10 films for the original reasons stated - volume (and cost) while traveling. The bottom line is that a 10-sheet box is hardly worth considering. I too am shooting Ilford.

Additionally, with the demise of 4x5 Readyloads (B&W), I've almost decided to sell the 4x5.

Andrew O'Neill
1-Dec-2009, 19:27
I recently got my order of 6 boxes 8x10 TMY. Sixty sheets. Lots of boxes but so little film. :mad:

CG
2-Dec-2009, 10:16
I'm usually pretty forgiving of Kodak, given the drubbing the whole analog industry is taking, but on the issue of how many sheets to a box, I'd say 25 is minimum. 10 is a pain in the backside. I'd be happier with 50 or 100.

Drew Wiley
2-Dec-2009, 10:37
We're all preaching to the choir. Some poor department head at Kodak was probably
under a mandate to reduce inventory and overhead or else face the axe himself. The
feelings of the end user rarely factor into decisions in today's economy. I too like the
film but hate the packaging.

Lenny Eiger
2-Dec-2009, 10:54
There's nothing "green" about analog photography. :D

Unless you include that an analog photographer might be more likely to use cotton paper vs wood pulp paper....

Probably nothing green about making plastic chips, either.

Complicated....


Lenny