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dulioil
30-Nov-2009, 16:15
Hi guys, i'm new to this forum and I'm wondering if you guys could teach me some darkroom manipulation like Jerry Uelsmann. I would really apriciate your help.


Thanks, dulioil.

Btw, I can't find any tutorials on google so i tought it would be best If i could ask some professionals ^_^


Additional details: I know how to process photos with enlarger and the chemicals in the dark.

Greg Blank
30-Nov-2009, 16:49
To be blunt your nuts :) But I encourage you to do it often and with 16x20 sheet film bought from Ilford! ;)

The skills involved takes lots of time and practice as well as now expensive materials. If you asked Jerry how long it took him to acquire and become proficient with the skills of masking and printing you might get and answer of 15 years "or more". In college back in 1986 I tried doing a couple of photo comps using a homemade pinbar and punch. Basically you make litho masks and reversed litho masks of your primary background negative, to leave areas of the paper unexposed and then you expose them with the sandwiched reversed mask and image you want to appear in the unexposed area. You can also use red liquid masking agent to hold back areas by painting onto your masks thereby creating custom areas to expose through onto the paper.





Hi guys, i'm new to this forum and I'm wondering if you guys could teach me some darkroom manipulation like Jerry Uelsmann. I would really apriciate your help.


Thanks, dulioil.

Btw, I can't find any tutorials on google so i tought it would be best If i could ask some professionals ^_^


Additional details: I know how to process photos with enlarger and the chemicals in the dark.

Drew Wiley
30-Nov-2009, 16:54
He also used an assembly line of six enlargers, as I recall.

Richard M. Coda
30-Nov-2009, 16:59
Mr. Uelsmann was the master at this, but to be frank, this is MUCH easier accomplished today with Photoshop. You can still shoot LF film, then scan your negs and do it in PS.

Richard Rees
30-Nov-2009, 18:04
The person who got my started in photography in the early 80's, studied under Jerry at the University of Florida in the mid 70,s and showed me how it was done. Several enlargers set up with different negatives set in each enlargers. Prints were made,then cut out were made in the prints than put back in the easels to block or print different negatives on the same paper. Very time /labor intensive. . All blended together ,same tones, different subject matter. This is the general process.

jnantz
30-Nov-2009, 18:28
hi dulioil

while it won't be the same thing
you could also coat paper and then coat and recoat area ..
and re-expose / feather-in these areas and re-process the image ...
then either use that as your final print or make a copy negative to reprint it.

another way would be to collage different prints onto
the background print ( cutting and putting the image BEHIND the background instead of re-exposing onto the paper )
and when you finish the image, rephotograph it, and blend the tones by retouching the film ( or work print ).

when i was a student i made collages both ways, except i didn't retouch the film
i used photographic emulsion on large glass plates, not paper ... and then contact print a final image onto photo paper ...

it was very time consuming, a lot of trial and error, but it was a lot of fun and worth it in the end ...

while photoshop may make things easier, sometimes doing things the old fashioned way is worth the time and effort ...

have fun
- john

bob carnie
30-Nov-2009, 18:38
Photo Comp is a very complex technique. One has to be able to see how each element sits on top of the one below and by looking down on the image, seeing what needs to sit on top of each element and then figuring out how to make the masks , sharp , unsharp, hard/ soft and then make them all work together is IMHO mind blowing and very hard to grasp, In the 80's my job at a very large lab was photo composition using multiple images and laying them all down on one piece of film or paper. I took me 9 months of 15 hour days/ 7 days a week to get a grasp of this .

Mr Ullesman was a master of this and could make images that were not considered Kitch. Today any wanker can try to emulate his style with PS but unfortunately most of it belongs in the trash can. Most of mask making and selections that are in PS and other editing software today mimic principles that Mr Ullesman and others did under an enlarger over 30 years ago.

I burned out some of my vision making 1000 of an inch mask corrections to make a perfect overlap.
It totally blows me away the power of PS to do in a minute what would take hours of painstaking rubylith cutting, micro modification blending and then double exposure years ago.

Richard Rees
30-Nov-2009, 18:46
Notting can move during the whole process, easels, masks,negs, all has to line up.

BetterSense
30-Nov-2009, 19:14
Mr. Uelsmann was the master at this, but to be frank, this is MUCH easier accomplished today with Photoshop.

Why is it easier to do in Photoshop? I don't know everyything, but it was my understanding that Photoshop is a digital image manipulation program. I don't even see how photoshop is relevant to purely optical photomanipulation such as that done by Jerry Uelsmann.


Of course one can do digital art INSTEAD of doing complex darkroom photo-manipulation. That is one option, as is splatter painting, making ham sandwiches, and being king of londinium and wearing a shiney hat. But don't say that this kind of art is "easier to do in photoshop". By that line of thinking, painting is easier to do with cameras, and horseback riding is easier now that we have cars.

bob carnie
1-Dec-2009, 07:02
Today making selections , masks and bluring images together in PS is very easy. Any student in digital imaging can do this with ease.
Doing this with an enlarger and a micro modifier, a blade and rubylith was very difficult and labour intensive. For fun try and put together three images on top of each other and let me know your views and post the image.
Try placing a drop shadow on the ground of an object floating in the sky and make it realistic enough to fool the eye , by hand it could take you all day, even to get to a point where the comp looked realistic.
Placing one image in front and behind another image was really tough to do and once a technician mastered that hand photocomposition became easier to grasp.

The maskmaking techniques of hand optical photocomp were mimiced in PS and I have done both manual and digitally with PS and you may or may not believe me but today it is much easier to do with PS.

Jerry Uelsmann was great at hand comps, I do not know the man and I do not know if he is still doing montage and am not aware how he is doing it today. I only know I have huge respect for him as an artist and probably more as a techician as I have walked in the somewhat same shoes in my past career as a photocomp technician.*Yes there use to be this job title in any major lab worldwide*
I know he used many enlargers , as did others, all locked down, I do know he blurred micro modified masks to shrink or swell *feather* to allow images to fit . I also know he used objects under the enlarger to create shadows.
I think he would agree that most of the montaging stages done in PS are variations of what he did in the darkroom.

There are a lot of good PS technicians on this site, I would say that a 50 image composed image from supplied layout and files in PS would probably take anywhere from three hours to 2 days depending upon the skill level of the technician.
By hand , a 50 image composed image using rubylith masks and enlarger took myself and a second technician 7 full working days to complete.

At the end of the day both images in magazine would look the same .
The original poster is asking a specific question regarding Jerry Uellseman and his methods, and I hope some of what I have said answers his question.







Why is it easier to do in Photoshop? I don't know everyything, but it was my understanding that Photoshop is a digital image manipulation program. I don't even see how photoshop is relevant to purely optical photomanipulation such as that done by Jerry Uelsmann.


Of course one can do digital art INSTEAD of doing complex darkroom photo-manipulation. That is one option, as is splatter painting, making ham sandwiches, and being king of londinium and wearing a shiney hat. But don't say that this kind of art is "easier to do in photoshop". By that line of thinking, painting is easier to do with cameras, and horseback riding is easier now that we have cars.

dulioil
1-Dec-2009, 07:13
Thanks guys ^_^
As a gimp 2.6 user, I know that it is quite simple to manipulate photos unlike darkroom photography but i'm up for the challenge.

However, i'm studying A level photography at Egglescliffe sixthform and I'm interested in surreal monochrome photography for my portfolio.

---
Sorry for my English.

bob carnie
1-Dec-2009, 07:35
I would be happy to try to explain a working method but I would need a reference photo to think about.


Basic equipment needed for high quality photocomp

** lots of this stuff is difficult to find and probably not worth the effort unless you plan on doing this type of work for years***

You will need lith dev , pos neg lith film, rubylith, diffusion material, large lightbox, one or two enlargers, a registration system I preferred stoessor but there are others, for the easal with vacumn pump. A point source light, a very repeatable way of processing the lith film.

For recieving film I used 6121 and 6118 kodak E6 and Kodak Interneg film.
I am not sure the replacements for this, but if you work in Black and White I would then consider FP4 in 8x10 or 4x5.

More expesive Equipment would be a NUArk plate burner and a Nuark Micro Modifier, I pretty well lived with this gear for years as essential but other comp workers I know used Enlarger light .
Also a Copy Camera for enlarging and reducing masks in to fit within the composition was a essential piece of equipment.


If you are over 40 years of age , don't even think of trying this as the stress to your eyes and nerves will show.




Thanks guys ^_^
As a gimp 2.6 user, I know that it is quite simple to manipulate photos unlike darkroom photography but i'm up for the challenge.

However, i'm studying A level photography at Egglescliffe sixthform and I'm interested in surreal monochrome photography for my portfolio.

---
Sorry for my English.

r.e.
1-Dec-2009, 12:21
If you are over 40 years of age , don't even think of trying this as the stress to your eyes and nerves will show.

The young man or woman who started this thread is in sixth form at a school in the UK that offers an intensive arts programme: http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/ :)

Duliol, have you considered contacting Mr. Uelsmann directly? He is still very active, in fact he has a new book coming out. See the news section on his web site: http://www.uelsmann.net/ Also, while he doesn't provide an e-mail address, his wife, Maggie Taylor, does on her site: info at maggietaylor.com

Maybe Bob Carnie, who knows a lot about printing and apparently about the kind of project you want to do, can figure out a way for you to get started without going bankrupt :)

bob carnie
1-Dec-2009, 12:29
I guess then that this person has the right eyeball stress level.
what is sixth form btw?

The young man or woman who started this thread is in sixth form at a school in the UK that offers an intensive arts programme: http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/ :)

dsphotog
1-Dec-2009, 12:43
I took a workshop from Jerry.
I'll tell how to do the symmetrical trees,
1, mask 1/2 of the camera lens, I use a Cokin double exposure mask.
2, shoot & process 2 identical negs.
3, put both negs in the neg carrier flipping one so the images are facing each other.
4 print!

Jerry told us "The camera is a license to explore."
This type of work is a lot of test prints & experimenting.

r.e.
1-Dec-2009, 12:44
what is sixth form btw?

It means that he/she is probably between 16 and 18 and in the last two years of high school, getting ready for A-level examinations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_form

bob carnie
1-Dec-2009, 12:55
Then I hope the school has the gear.
One of my best workers is 18 going on 19 who had three years of high school photography classes. So I feel there is hope for this person if they are indeed game.

It means that he/she is probably between 16 and 18 and in the last two years of high school, getting ready for A-level examinations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_form

bob carnie
1-Dec-2009, 12:56
Ok that was a easy one, how about the floating tree over the city?

I took a workshop from Jerry.
I'll tell how to do the symmetrical trees,
1, mask 1/2 of the camera lens, I use a Cokin double exposure mask.
2, shoot & process 2 identical negs.
3, put both negs in the neg carrier flipping one so the images are facing each other.
4 print!

Jerry told us "The camera is a license to explore."
This type of work is a lot of test prints & experimenting.

Peter Langham
1-Dec-2009, 13:41
Uelsmann's book "Process and Perception" (I think) gives a pretty good description of the working methods, but I'm not sure if that makes it any easier. Don't know if the book is still in publication.

dulioil
1-Dec-2009, 14:47
The young man or woman who started this thread is in sixth form at a school in the UK that offers an intensive arts programme: http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/

Duliol, have you considered contacting Mr. Uelsmann directly? He is still very active, in fact he has a new book coming out. See the news section on his web site: http://www.uelsmann.net/ Also, while he doesn't provide an e-mail address, his wife, Maggie Taylor, does on her site: info at maggietaylor.com

Maybe Bob Carnie, who knows a lot about printing and apparently about the kind of project you want to do, can figure out a way for you to get started without going bankrupt


Again, thanks for your help ^_^ but what is his email? I can't find it from his website :D

r.e.
1-Dec-2009, 15:13
Uelsmann hasn't put his e-mail address on his web site. However, his wife, Maggie Taylor, who is also a photographer, has a site of her own at www.maggietaylor.com. Click on About, and then on Contact, and you will find an e-mail address. I expect that you can reach Mr. Uelsmann through her. Explain who you are, your age, where you go to school and your project. You just might get a response; there's no harm in trying.

dsphotog
1-Dec-2009, 20:58
Ok that was a easy one, how about the floating tree over the city?

That requires 2 enlargers...... not so hard, you are printing a darker object into a lighter tone background.
Just a bit of test printing.
Important to tape the easels down to maintain accuracy when moving the paper between enlargers.

bob carnie
2-Dec-2009, 06:25
Ok , now I have to drag out the book because I am asking about easy ones it seems , how about the floating rock with the drop shadow below on the ground.

This time without the line about ** just a bit of testing *** and go into a bit more detail.

I did a floating egg with drop shadow once and it was quite difficult. To be honest well over twenty years have past since I did a photocomp and I cannot remember how I did it.
btw every comp I ever did was on a single easel with one computer controlled enlarger using multiple layer masks. I used a overhead Lisle Camera hooked up to a xy bubble memory computer system.
Basically a closed looped Deverre enlager and a front light copy board so that we could combine reflective art and transparancies would be backlight by the Enlarger head.
A rotating glass mount vacumn system for the images and a rotating vacumn easel in the back. This way I could position, and rotate images to within a 1000'inch mask on the back of the ease.
In North America there were only two or three shops that used a Lisle Camera and it was expensive, complicated(1980's standards) and prone to problems.
We had this camera which I worked on for four years and then 8 other photocomp technicians who did work on enlarger only but once again they would only use one easel.


That requires 2 enlargers...... not so hard, you are printing a darker object into a lighter tone background.
Just a bit of test printing.
Important to tape the easels down to maintain accuracy when moving the paper between enlargers.

dsphotog
2-Dec-2009, 15:53
Hi Bob,
Sorry if I made it sound easy, Jerry is a genius, and has spent much of his life developing & perfecting his technique.
He is also quite modest, and the nicest guy !
I've followed his work since 1976...

Ok the rock in the sky...
With the neg of the scene in the 1st enlarger, expose onto the paper.
The rock in the sky is best done by shooting the rock (or any object ) on a white background, to produce an opaque bkgrnd on the neg.
Move the paper to the second enlarger with the rock neg, adding exposure only from the rock.
Now for the shadow... you can take a test print of the rock & cut out the rock, so you have a rock shaped hole , use a third enlarger, lens stopped way down with no neg.
Shine the light through the rock shaped hole, to carefully fog the paper forming the shadow on the print.

If you prefer a reflection of the rock, like maybe in water.
use another neg of the rock (always shoot several) reversed in another enlarger & slightly out of focus.

Of course all this takes a lot of exposure testing, paper & set up time.
Oh yeah a bunch of enlargers, too!
Happy printing!
David Silva
Modesto Ca

Chris Jones
2-Dec-2009, 19:21
See also:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=54748&highlight=chris+jones+montage

Jerry Uelsmann's basic mechanics is fairly easy and requires only one enlarger. He uses more to make it a quicker process.

You can begin by taking two boring landscapes of one third ground and two thirds sky in which one has clouds and the other not and by masking out the sky on the paper on the first print, print the ground and then with the second neg in the enlarger mask the ground and print the sky.

Also, consider matte boxes. I have a Profectomat for the Mamiya TLR which can be used to mask out areas and on the mono-rail a bellows shade and filter holder which can also act as a matte box.

DON'T buy a matte box as they are way overpriced, but make one from black card which can be attached to the front of a lens with rubber bands rather like a Lee filter holder. I see no reason why this cannot be done with a 35mm SLR. (I am thinking of making one for the RB67, also.)

I am also thinking of making a frame from plastic angle glued together with PVC cement which would sit over the printing and enlarger base board which can also hold masks in the manner of a matte box on a camera, as well as providing dodge and burn.

I found GIMP and Photoshop too slow for sketching so now use a pair of scissor on 10X8 RC proof prints. This gives me a good enough compositional idea. As shown below:

dulioil
16-Dec-2009, 11:17
Hi i did it ^_^ wooop

http://dulioil.deviantart.com/art/Floating-tree-darkroom-146949123

http://dulioil.deviantart.com/art/Hands-of-Growth-146857406

http://dulioil.deviantart.com/art/Is-this-heaven-146949296


thanks all ^_^ thanks very much for the information. I only used 1 enlarger and up to 3 negatives (max) :)

r.e.
16-Dec-2009, 11:25
Dulioil, those are impressive. Congratulations. If you do more, please post them.

r.e.
16-Dec-2009, 11:38
How about filling us in a little about how you made these?

bob carnie
16-Dec-2009, 11:48
Very good, I was wondering if you were going to follow this through ,I hope your instructors are impressed

dulioil
16-Dec-2009, 12:00
okay, i'll tell you how i made them ^_^ I will post more soon xD

I made a test strip for each negative for timing and exposure.

I masked with the card which is traced through the projected light. and apply the correct time/filter and exposure whilst the desired areas is covered to prevent light exposure. After the 1st photograph, I noticed that the edges is quite rough so i started to shake the card to blur the edges and it worked. I only have access to 1 enlarger so switching to another negative was time consuming and the red guard keeps falling off :Z btw, i held the photographic paper in place with masking tape to prevent disturbance.

It was very difficult but it was worth it ^_^

dulioil
16-Dec-2009, 12:01
I hope my photographs won't go yellow . took me a while to make lol

bob carnie
16-Dec-2009, 12:34
Keep at this , there are very few or none doing this now , you are unique. Just think in these days all hand photomontage , who of thunk it.

dulioil
16-Dec-2009, 12:36
thanks ^_^, btw, how do i edit the 1st post of my topic because I want to update it thank xD

r.e.
16-Dec-2009, 12:44
Dulioil, I think that only a moderator can edit your original post at this point.

You can always start a new thread. There's a new sub-forum here called Image Sharing and Discussion that might interest you.

Whether in this thread or elsewhere, I think that a lot of people here, including some very experienced photographers, will be interested in what you are doing. As Bob Carnie says, your teachers should be impressed.

dulioil
16-Dec-2009, 12:48
wow thanks ^_^ I have 2 college tutors and they were great ^_^

before I started darkroom manipulations, non of my photography tutors know how to replicate Jerry Uelsmann's techniques. I spent countless hours researching but found no
techniques until i went onto this forum.

I thank you all ^_^

link http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=57035

bob carnie
16-Dec-2009, 13:47
It has been years since I attempted a montage, in fact I swore I would never do another .
Tip
One thing to consider is to look straight down at the montage, see which image sits on top of the other , the top images are the one's you make the masks for first , then as you go down through the layers by burning the top mask into the second layer mask and so on and so on. At some point you are at the very bottom image and you burn all the other image masks into it and then you have the layers all ready to reassemble on the enlarger.
It took me 9months of head scratching to figure this out. If you continue I hope you keep posting your images so we can see.



wow thanks ^_^ I have 2 college tutors and they were great ^_^

before I started darkroom manipulations, non of my photography tutors know how to replicate Jerry Uelsmann's techniques. I spent countless hours researching but found no
techniques until i went onto this forum.

I thank you all ^_^

link http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=57035

dulioil
16-Dec-2009, 13:51
okays, i will do it ^_^ it's nearly christmas holiday soon so you'll be expecting more soon in early January because I only have access to the darkroom in college :)

I'm glad I've took photography despite having regrets :)

cjbroadbent
17-Dec-2009, 00:35
... I'm wondering if you guys could teach me some darkroom manipulation...
You can do it on transparency film right in the camera without a darkroom. Shoot some sheets of the subject on a darkish background outlining the subject on the ground-glass with a grease-pencil. Set up the new 'background', focus, and put black out-of-focus masks in position to mask out the subject area. It works in a rather dreamy way.
Back before Photoshop, I did a dozen or so jobs this way for furniture, fashion and even cigarettes. I'll dig some out and post here tomorrow.
Keep at it.

cjbroadbent
17-Dec-2009, 05:39
As promised. No darkroom no photoshop. All in one on 4x5. You need the ground glass to mark positions.

bob carnie
17-Dec-2009, 05:45
nice

As promised. No darkroom no photoshop. All in one on 4x5. You need the ground glass to mark positions.

BetterSense
17-Dec-2009, 09:34
How do the oof masks work? Do they go in a mat box in front of the lens?

cjbroadbent
17-Dec-2009, 11:44
How do the oof masks work? Do they go in a mat box in front of the lens?
Lying on a sheet of glass about half way between camera and background artwork.
Bits of black paper shaped with scissors.

dulioil
17-Dec-2009, 16:36
As promised. No darkroom no photoshop. All in one on 4x5. You need the ground glass to mark positions.

WOW ^__^ so amazing

bob carnie
17-Dec-2009, 16:49
Ok for something different I will add an image of my own from the series heavy metal.
Ilford Warmtone, trix push one stop, Mr Jolly's chemical mix , solarization in darkroom on print, tri toned , sepia, gold and selenium
sorry tried to load tiff I will do again.

bob carnie
17-Dec-2009, 16:58
file was too big here it is

D. Bryant
17-Dec-2009, 21:09
I don't even see how photoshop is relevant to purely optical photomanipulation such as that done by Jerry Uelsmann.




Uelsmann uses Photoshop now and has for a good while.

Don Bryant

Lolalu
5-Mar-2014, 13:24
Hello everybody!

It's been years since this subject was active. I would really wanna see Dulioils work or others if that is still possible?:) I am really interested in darkroom manipulation (seen a lot from past potographers) and I would like to see analog manipulation done these days;)

Bill Kumpf
5-Mar-2014, 14:35
MTSU Baldwin Photographic Gallery currently is showing works of Jerry Uelsmann and Maggie Taylor. Mr. Uelsmann work is all darkroom and Ms. Taylor is Digital. It offers an interesting comparison of the two methods. It is up for a few more days.

http://baldwinphotogallery.com/

https://www.facebook.com/BaldwinPhotoGallery

Lolalu
5-Mar-2014, 14:59
Thank you for that. I know their work, they are both fantastic! If somebody didn't watch it allready there is also a documentary of them and it's worth watching;)