reasonable price petzval lenses

[tenderobject]

sorry, i've posted this in the wrong place.. hope mods can delete it there..

anyway, here is what i have posted..

hi guys,

sorry if this was posted before.. i was trying to dig in a few threads but there are too many so i'm kinda confused now. hope it's fine..

anyway, i'm looking for a good reasonable price petzval lens that will cover 5x7 (with swirly petzval effect) and will be also usable on 8x10 just incase if i go with 8x10 next time.. a good price for 4x5 petzval as well is appreciated..

how much would it cost and what are the models, manufacturers, focal length for the format etc. there are tons of petzval lenses, different manufacturers and stuff but what are the best for their price? like a hundred or 2 for a good petzval lens. would that be possible?

thank you very much.

regards

J

[Steven Tribe]

Well if you want a petzval with a name and a iris/waterhouse stops you will have to pay quite a lot these days. However, there are still a lot of projection petzvals with unknown makers on offer. These are from magic lanterns and other early projection equipment, like episcopes. Whilst camera petzvals are around f3 - f5, most projection petzvals are much slower, that is, thinner. Typical focal lengths are from 6" - 18" and this is often the only data (if any) stamped on the lens. B&L are a known maker of late petzvals and they typically have a nickel plated barrel. The better class of magic lantern lenses (but not necessarily the best performers for your use!) often have the magic lantern manufacturer's name stamped on the barrel. There is quite a lot of info through google on these makers. Glass is usually pretty good ( they used mostly standard reliable flint/crown) but you can be unlucky and find one of the rear lenses missing. A good sign is a brass flap in front ( movement sideways or swinging up ) or the remains of a flap. I havn't bought recently (last year or so) but these were very cheap on e**y - prices were about $20.

[tenderobject]

thanks a lot steve!

i have a 6" petzval with unknown manufacturer. A.J thompson & co. Importers. got it with the ansco 5x7 i bought heremonths ago.. still trying to learn but for now i really love the brass lenses shots especially the petzval effect so im hoping to get another one soon that would be fine with 5x7 and 8x10.

[Steven Tribe]

Probably French. A.J.Thompson was based in Boston (USA). A 16" petzval from him was sold for just over $100 recently.

[tenderobject]

Probably French. A.J.Thompson was based in Boston (USA). A 16" petzval from him was sold for just over $100 recently.

thats reasonable! theres a lot on the auction site but i don;t like to use the site anymore.. plus theres a lot to choose from.. are there any petzval to avoid?
some sells complete with flange and some only sells elements. thats why im so very confused. :o

[Steven Tribe]

Have a look at e**y 130347089620. This is exactly the type of petzval I was talking about. I have no connection with seller, of course!

[tenderobject]

Have a look at e**y 130347089620. This is exactly the type of petzval I was talking about. I have no connection with seller, of course!

thanks again steve!!!

anyway, im just curios about the filter diameter of my 6" petzval. 58mm doesn't fit it. much bigger. i can only find 55mm available. no 56 or 57 around. i like to try ND filter to my lens so i can use it outdoor much..

will check the lens on the auction site. :)

[tenderobject]

saw it but theres no flange for the lens board.. is there a way i could just put a lens to a lensboard without a flange? diy maybe. some rubber, tape or glue? hehe watching the listing. thanks!

[eddie]

try anmd get a "taking" lens if you can. the magic lantern are fine but you might as well get one with a water house slot. even the ML lenses are getting expensive so you may just pay a bit more for a taking lens.

IMO most 5x7 lenses are too short of a focal length for 8x10. i prefer a bit of a longer lens. also the DOF gets really really small when you get in tight on an 8x10. this makes getting the focus you want difficult. it is very hard to buy one lens to do it all. they are like cars....one will do but it may not be the best choice for the situation....a Ferrari will go get groceries on a dirt road but why? just liek an old VW beetle will go round a race track.....

make alens board out of card board and tape it in. this is what i do. no pretty but no one sees it....they only see the photos you take with the set up.

get a 3x3 or 4x4 ND filter and just hold it in front of the lens. modern filter threads will not usually work.

avoid all lenses by cameo-need-ham, carla8schoolgirl and his other aliases here....he is from NSW australia....you can read all about him on LF forums.

eddie

[tenderobject]

eddie, thanks a lot for the advice. i'm really inspired by you and jim when it comes to old/vintage ones.. :P

ok, i'll just buy a lens for 5x7 for now, will think about next lens when im into 8x10 haha. i think 8"-9" would do the trick i'm looking for. :)

forgot.. if i use 3x3 or 4x4 ND filters in front on my lens my workflow would be different from what im doing right now.. this is my procedure.

1. put the lens cap on
2. put the film holder
3. pull the darkslide
4. pull the lens cap for exposure
5. put back the lens cap
6. put back the darkslide then pull the film holder

what do you think about this procedure? i might add the ND filter at first maybe. :)

still open for more advice... not easy to be noob haha

[eddie]

yeah. you will find that 8x10 petzval lenses are HUGE and expensive. make sure you buy a camera with a lens board BIGGER than 6x6. 6x6 will not work for 8x10 petzvals. look for the 7 1/2 x 7 1/2 inch lens boards on the ansco cameras.

you do not need a ND filter. i do not use them. i just use a darkslide and under develop. or you can make a focal plane shutter using a piece of card board witha slit in it. you pull the slit across the front of teh lens. to get faster speeds cut a thinner slit.

eddie

[tenderobject]

yeah. you will find that 8x10 petzval lenses are HUGE and expensive. make sure you buy a camera with a lens board BIGGER than 6x6. 6x6 will not work for 8x10 petzvals. look for the 7 1/2 x 7 1/2 inch lens boards on the ansco cameras.

you do not need a ND filter. i do not use them. i just use a darkslide and under develop. or you can make a focal plane shutter using a piece of card board witha slit in it. you pull the slit across the front of teh lens. to get faster speeds cut a thinner slit.

eddie

great eddie! :) will follow your advice! will try that diy cardboard shutter:D

[Steven Tribe]

Quite a few old projection petzvals have a very wide slot in the front which is profiled like a waterhouse stop (flat sides) . These can be used for front disc stops or cheap gelatine ND cutouts etc. I enclose a photo of what they look like. These had the lift up type lens cover. These two have the pressure/spring type mounting in the associated mount. 2" seems to have been a standard at some stage. The F's of these are 8 and 7. I did know the coverage but will check again to-day!

[Steven Tribe]

OK I have checked them again. The 16" covered 5x7" - only the corners were dark on my 8x10. The ca. 12" covered 4x5" - just!

[tenderobject]

OK I have checked them again. The 16" covered 5x7" - only the corners were dark on my 8x10. The ca. 12" covered 4x5" - just!

can i see some photos taken with these beautiful lenses? where would you put watrehouse stop in those lenses? i can't see the slot..

what do you mean by cheap gelatine ND? is it in front of the lens? was thinking of putting an Nd filter infront of the lens (the filter ring type) with bluetack :D co's i only have a 77mm nd here i might buy another which is small so i can make a small lenscap as a shutter..

[Steven Tribe]

Gelatine ND filters are produced in sheet sizes for use with lighting intensity control and are often considerable disposable. When I was with the state tv company, we used meters of blue gelatine filters to control the temperature of light coming through windows. These gelatine filters are available at places other than the usual photographic stores. With even a few objectives with odd/large sizes with special/non existant threads, it is far more reasonable to invest in sheet gelatine, a cutting blade and stiff mounting card.
I have not made a slit in these but will try and control the aperture with discs in the very wide front "Waterhouse" slot. No photos yet I'm afraid - I suffer from the - too much equipment - so little time syndrome at the moment!

[tenderobject]

Gelatine ND filters are produced in sheet sizes for use with lighting intensity control and are often considerable disposable. When I was with the state tv company, we used meters of blue gelatine filters to control the temperature of light coming through windows. These gelatine filters are available at places other than the usual photographic stores. With even a few objectives with odd/large sizes with special/non existant threads, it is far more reasonable to invest in sheet gelatine, a cutting blade and stiff mounting card.
I have not made a slit in these but will try and control the aperture with discs in the very wide front "Waterhouse" slot. No photos yet I'm afraid - I suffer from the - too much equipment - so little time syndrome at the moment!

many thanks steve. :)

[Steven Tribe]

I have checked out ND filters - mostly for my own use! They are probably a better solution for non iris petzvals than home made stops and enhance the "petzval effect". You can find them under Lee Filters - but under the section for Lighting - not cameras. They are sold in rolls or sheets. The size of sheets is 122cm x 55cm and the cost (in Denmark) is £6 per sheet. Enough to supply a number of users! Range is 1/2 to 4 stops. Of course you only have to buy one of the lower values and combine 2 or more to come up to the ND factor you need. If these ND filters are not homogenous for optical use I am sure someone will respond quickly!

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

I have a nice Rapid Rectilinear just listed here
Taylor 7" (178mm) Rapid Rectilinear (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?p=532527#post532527)

[Steven Tribe]

I think the seller of the small projection petzval I mentioned on the 27th must have gotten a shock. This must be world record for this kind of objective. Note to myself: do not mention item types which you might be interested in bidding for now or in the future.

[tenderobject]

heheh steve.. about that rapid rectilinear. whats the difference with that lens to petzval?

[Steven Tribe]

RR's cover a much large part of the frame with quality focussed detail while petzvals "break down" quickly away from the center. The P objectives which made for 5x7 (or the equivalent cabinet size) are now sold for 8x10 as the breakdown area is currently popular. I personally like RRs and I already have the TTH that is for sale ! The lacquer on these is fantastic (golden yellow). We must remember that anastigmatics only became popular because they were just that bit faster than the RR's and dry plates were still a bit slow in the 1890's.

[Steven Tribe]

I have found a nice new petzval on the site but no information this time! I want to do a bit of price research without possibilities of intervention!

[domaz]

I have found a nice new petzval on the site but no information this time! I want to do a bit of price research without possibilities of intervention!

You will still get outbid in the last seconds of the auction - don't kid yourself. That's E*ay for you.

[eddie]

We must remember that anastigmatics only became popular because they were just that bit faster than the RR's and dry plates were still a bit slow in the 1890's.

while this may be true in part remember that anastigmats are a flat field that are corrected for astigmatism as well. a revolutionary step.

[tenderobject]

RR's cover a much large part of the frame with quality focussed detail while petzvals "break down" quickly away from the center. The P objectives which made for 5x7 (or the equivalent cabinet size) are now sold for 8x10 as the breakdown area is currently popular. I personally like RRs and I already have the TTH that is for sale ! The lacquer on these is fantastic (golden yellow). We must remember that anastigmatics only became popular because they were just that bit faster than the RR's and dry plates were still a bit slow in the 1890's.

thanks steven! are there anyway you can tell if a barrel lens is a petzval design or RR or other types of lens? or its usual barrel with the focusing knob and such.. i'm still confused. :D by the way, my petzval is a magic lantern lens.. should i just leave or ignore the focusing knob? if it's advanced or not would there be any effect with my shots? that knob is kinda annoying at times haha.. i'm enjoying playing with the petzval with a ND filter now. hopefully i could get the diameter of my lens so i could put a stepup ring for nd400.. 52 and 58 doesn't fit. might be in 55-57!

[Louis Pacilla]

Hi tenderobject

On my small Petzval's I use a set of series 7 ND filters (pick em up for pennies) & if you look around there are holders that have two metal bands (half moon) spring loaded when you push them together they open up & I slip it gently around the rear part of the lens I no you should not put glass behind the lens. but really, I have noticed no ill effects.
I did this because of the hood on my little Darlot (the one that swirls best on 4x5) has a very useful original brass cap. you know my shutter. this way my filters are tucked away inside the camera. & I can pull the cap & securely place it back on the lens after exposure.

I've posted a couple of photos of the set up

The knob really does nothing more than place or move focus. You can lose it if you want but comes on handy to tweak focus w/ out touching camera movements after locked down. That's why they continued to make lenses this way long after they it was out of fashion. for the old timers. they became adapt at using the focus knob this way. I believe the 1st use of the knob was well,,, the 1st cameras had no bellows.
Hope this helps. BTW the holder & filters coast $3.00. Money well spent.
Peace
Louis P

[tenderobject]

Hi tenderobject

On my small Petzval's I use a set of series 7 ND filters (pick em up for pennies) & if you look around there are holders that have two metal bands (half moon) spring loaded when you push them together they open up & I slip it gently around the rear part of the lens I no you should not put glass behind the lens. but really, I have noticed no ill effects.
I did this because of the hood on my little Darlot (the one that swirls best on 4x5) has a very useful original brass cap. you know my shutter. this way my filters are tucked away inside the camera. & I can pull the cap & securely place it back on the lens after exposure.

I've posted a couple of photos of the set up

The knob really does nothing more than place or move focus. You can lose it if you want but comes on handy to tweak focus w/ out touching camera movements after locked down. That's why they continued to make lenses this way long after they it was out of fashion. for the old timers. they became adapt at using the focus knob this way. I believe the 1st use of the knob was well,,, the 1st cameras had no bellows.
Hope this helps. BTW the holder & filters coast $3.00. Money well spent.
Peace
Louis P


god louis thanks for sharing! my magic lantern has this hood as well without a thread so i need to seperate it with the lens to put on the filters or put a bluetac on the hood to stick the filter in or i should do your method.. my magic lantern is 6" and i use it in 5x7 i'll try it with 4x5 to see if the petzval effect are much better than using 5x7. ehe i'll try if i can get a hold of those spring type filters locally if not will hceck the auction site.

thanks again!

[Louis Pacilla]

Hi Tenerobject

Yea. I think this is part of the fun of using the not so new & shiny optical Gem .
No modern shutter. Hell, no shutter @ all in this case. Not to mention lack of standard filter thread ,hell no standard anything.

However, after working the bugs out & making a compelling image .Man what a rush:)

This was a very easy & inexpensive way around this problem & I hope it works for you.

peace
Louis P

[Frank_E]

Hi Tenerobject

Yea. I think this is part of the fun of using the not so new & shiny optical Gem .
No modern shutter. Hell, no shutter @ all in this case. Not to mention lack of standard filter thread ,hell no standard anything.

However, after working the bugs out & making a compelling image .Man what a rush:)

This was a very easy & inexpensive way around this problem & I hope it works for you.

peace
Louis P


some background and then a question about your post

I was successful yesterday in my bid on Ebay for a brass lens with flange. Whether it has a "petzval look" or not, I will discover when the lens arrives..

in case you are interested this is the one

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130347633649&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_2456wt_1167

I suspect it does not have a petzval profile because of the general dimensions of the lens. But I wanted to experiment anyways.

I plan to try and mount it on a 4x5 Cambo SC

my question relates to how you expose without a shutter. I have not been successful so far in purchasing a shutter so will have to experiment without one.

once you have metered your scene how do you then set up the correct exposure on an old lens like this. In other words both the iris setting (with no iris) and presumably the manual shutter simulation (cap on the front on and off) . I realize that you can do "trial and error" but that is alot of film to burn and develop...

thanks

[goamules]

It looks like a Petzval to me. On older brass barrels, the knob usually means it's a petzval. For newer black lacquered barrels, they are sometimes triplets and still have a knob. Remember, most of these are projector or magic lantern lenses. They had to have a way to focus the projected image, so they almost all have knobs.

For shuttering, I use a darkslide in front of the lens and just approximate the timing (after metering). I've even been shooting ISO 400 speed that way, but I shoot in lower light settings so I can get about 1 second exposures.

[Steven Tribe]

Could be a P - it certainly looks like a magic lantern objective! Did you ask for estimate of the back focal length? The "two thick lens" doesn't mean anything as sellers only discover two lenses at the back if there is a lot of dust between them. They kept making petzvals for projectors quite late because they didn't trust their balsamed pairs would stand up to the considerable heat at that area and later they went over to triplets! Another good quality fast projection/petzval is item 380184203036 with B&L's standard nickel plating - unusually long though.

[Frank_E]

It looks like a Petzval to me. On older brass barrels, the knob usually means it's a petzval. For newer black lacquered barrels, they are sometimes triplets and still have a knob. Remember, most of these are projector or magic lantern lenses. They had to have a way to focus the projected image, so they almost all have knobs.

For shuttering, I use a darkslide in front of the lens and just approximate the timing (after metering). I've even been shooting ISO 400 speed that way, but I shoot in lower light settings so I can get about 1 second exposures.

thanks for the feedback. I can understand how you can estimate the shutter speed manually (ie practice counting with a stopwatch). What I don't understand is how you know what the aperture of the lens is. Are these old brass lenses typically a certain aperture or do you do a light meter reading on the ground glass and compare it to a know aperture in order to know what the speed of the lens is and then do all of your other settings accordingly (I think I just answered my own question Yes?)

thanks again

[Frank_E]

Could be a P - it certainly looks like a magic lantern objective! Did you ask for estimate of the back focal length? The "two thick lens" doesn't mean anything as sellers only discover two lenses at the back if there is a lot of dust between them. They kept making petzvals for projectors quite late because they didn't trust their balsamed pairs would stand up to the considerable heat at that area and later they went over to triplets! Another good quality fast projection/petzval is item 380184203036 with B&L's standard nickel plating - unusually long though.

Steven,
thank you also for your feedback. considering their other listings and apparent lack of "photographic knowledge". I didn't ask any questions. Just figured I would take my chances and see what happens. Have been tracking a number of these lenses and most seem to go in the $100-200 range. So I thought this was a reasonable bargain. Especially considering the fact that most of the lantern lenses don't appear to come with a mounting flange, which makes life more difficult (but not impossible).

[Dan Dozer]

Frank,

Here's a simple and fairly accurate method to figure out the aperature on your lenses. Put the lens on the camera and focus at infinity. Measure the distance from the center of the lens to film plane - let's say it's 10" for example. Measure the diameter of the aperature or if no aperature, the dimeter of the inside of the lens - let's say 2" for example. Divide the focal distance by the aperature diameter and you get the F stop - in this example the F stop is F5.

I took apart a Petzval projection lens that wouldn't work on my 8 x 10 - it was much too small and I mounted only the front half of the lens to a lens board. This half lens now had no iris - using this method my F stop turned out to be about F4.5, and it works very well for figuring exposure.

Hope this helps,

Dan

[Steven Tribe]

Well, I was the only bidder on the possible Petzval I mentioned about a week ago. So it is possible to be alone on a bid for an early projection lens. It is a very small one with a back focus of only 4 1/2" so I doubt it will cover 4x5". Made by none other than Emil Busch who produced a number of kino objectives early in the 20th C. Not known as a big petzval firm, though! The company that supplied this was well known in Bristol and the " & Sons" means it was sold between 1895 and about 1920. No. 260516444154if anyone is interested.

[Cesare Berti]

Luis,

I recently picked up a Darlot very similar to yours. I see you have it mounted on a Tech board. How did you mount it? From the photo it does not look like you used a ring or flange. Thanks

[Emil Schildt]

Well, I was the only bidder on the possible Petzval I mentioned about a week ago. So it is possible to be alone on a bid for an early projection lens. It is a very small one with a back focus of only 4 1/2" so I doubt it will cover 4x5". Made by none other than Emil Busch who produced a number of kino objectives early in the 20th C. Not known as a big petzval firm, though! The company that supplied this was well known in Bristol and the " & Sons" means it was sold between 1895 and about 1920. No. 260516444154if anyone is interested.

Steven - I have a "Ki" lens and it covers but swirls a lot on 6x6.... Fun to attach on my Rolleiflex SL 66...

see image taken with that combo (I am sure I have posted that picture somewhere in this LF forum, bu tI don't remember where, and I can't find it... so bear with me.)

Have fun with the lens.

[Steven Tribe]

Yes, I have seen this image before in one of your postings- but forgot about the Ki name associated with it. So it is a petzval then?

[Emil Schildt]

Yes, I have seen this image before in one of your postings- but forgot about the Ki name associated with it. So it is a petzval then?

I havn't put it apart, but I'd say yes...

I'll go try to unscrew it now..

EDIT: I just checked, and it definitively a Petzval.

[Steven Tribe]

Looks as though it is best for a non-full 35mm DSLR experimenter! Of whom there are quite a few! Looks as though one is viewing the subject through a glass cabbage!

[Emil Schildt]

Looks as though it is best for a non-full 35mm DSLR experimenter! Of whom there are quite a few! Looks as though one is viewing the subject through a glass cabbage!

Proberly - I wouldn't know as I don't use digital....

[tenderobject]

some background and then a question about your post

I was successful yesterday in my bid on Ebay for a brass lens with flange. Whether it has a "petzval look" or not, I will discover when the lens arrives..

in case you are interested this is the one

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130347633649&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_2456wt_1167

I suspect it does not have a petzval profile because of the general dimensions of the lens. But I wanted to experiment anyways.

I plan to try and mount it on a 4x5 Cambo SC

my question relates to how you expose without a shutter. I have not been successful so far in purchasing a shutter so will have to experiment without one.

once you have metered your scene how do you then set up the correct exposure on an old lens like this. In other words both the iris setting (with no iris) and presumably the manual shutter simulation (cap on the front on and off) . I realize that you can do "trial and error" but that is alot of film to burn and develop...

thanks

hi frank,

since we are both new here or atleast using petzval.. i would like you to share my workflow..

first thing when i received my 5x7 with petzval i search for some info how to get the focal lenght and the aperture opening of my magic lantern.. just a guess not really accurate it's like a 6" lens with 3.8 to 4.5 opening. so i shoot mainly in 4.5 or so.. got the video on youtube by jbrunner. funny video and it works! although i'm still learning how to use it accurately.. i'm still getting underexpose in my last shots.. or might be the free film i got from the seller had been fogged.. will check it again since im still in the learning process..

so since i know the focal length and the opening (not 100% accurate) i just always keep remembering the aperture hehe so it would much be easy to have your exposure times etc and to compensate.... i used ND filter as well so i can sue it in daylight atleast (check luis post still looking for one). i use lenscap and darkcloth when loading the holder to the camera.. when darkslide is pulled then i will count for exposure. atleast i could get a minimum of 1sec per exposure. hahaha


anyway, another problem with my 6" is i think its a bit short for 5x7.. i would want to have one with great petzval effect on 5x7 (anyone have recommnedation? 8" or 9" or 12" with lots of movements and swirly effect).

this seems like a good thread.. i've seen a german made petzval. is this legit? :)

[Frank_E]

some background and then a question about your post

I was successful yesterday in my bid on Ebay for a brass lens with flange. Whether it has a "petzval look" or not, I will discover when the lens arrives..

in case you are interested this is the one

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130347633649&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_2456wt_1167

I suspect it does not have a petzval profile because of the general dimensions of the lens. But I wanted to experiment anyways.

I plan to try and mount it on a 4x5 Cambo SC

my question relates to how you expose without a shutter. I have not been successful so far in purchasing a shutter so will have to experiment without one.

once you have metered your scene how do you then set up the correct exposure on an old lens like this. In other words both the iris setting (with no iris) and presumably the manual shutter simulation (cap on the front on and off) . I realize that you can do "trial and error" but that is alot of film to burn and develop...

thanks

I feel like I just won the lottery....

got the lens in the mail which I mentioned above
there was no mention of any markings in the listing
when receiving it I checked it carefully and under the corrosion
there is the engraving "Darlot Paris - B.F.&Co."

and the glass is in good condition and cleaned up nicely

what is the best way to clean the brass
simply use "Brasso"?

[tenderobject]

hey frank congrats!!!

haha i was searching the forum for brass cleaning/cleaner and i saw your last post here.. yeah what's the best solution to clean the brass barrel and make it shiny beauty again :)

another question.. my 6" projection lens (magic lantern lens) that i use for 5x7 can cover my camera but not enough movement, i'm fine with that sometimes i like the vignetting in one corner :P.

if i do some pretzelling, i'm getting a vignette in one corner. what should i have to do? :) 8" to 12" would still give me swirly, falloff effect on 5x7 or in 8x10? i've read somewhere that some petzval with 6"-7" focal length can't cover 5x7. why is that?

merry christmas you all!!! thank you Largeformatphotography.info

[frank hoerauf]

Just clean with soap and water, you really dont want it to look new and remove the old patina. just my own opinion on antiques i geuss. maybe i watch antique road show too much, but usually polishing and refinishing antiques ruins the overall appearence as well as the value.