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View Full Version : New to 4x5, Hoping to clear things up/Get Suggestions.



sheeep
27-Nov-2009, 02:29
Hey all, I'm glad to have found this forum and this site, tons of useful information here.

I originally was going to wait until summer to dive into large format, but I'll be headed out on a West Coast trip this winter and I don't want to pass up having the opportunity to have that much fun shooting.

I wanna get a 4x5, rail, I want to be able to have adjustments. Looking at the options on the market I see the options as:


Cambo/Calumet (4x5 Legend (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800643906-USE/Cambo_Calumet__4x5_Legend_with_Copal.html), 45N (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800613584-USE/Calumet_Cambo__45N_4x5_View_Camera.html))
low end Toyo (45C (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800396209-USE/Toyo_View_180104_4x5_45C_View_Camera.html))
low end Sinar's (F series (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800625983-USE/Sinar__F_4X5_CAMERA_BODY.html))

I've been told the Sinar cameras are the worlds greatest, both because of their construction and their full line of accessories. Accessories being available sound like a huge plus, which is also why the Calumet/Cambo's seem interesting.

So my first question is, are there any other camera bodies that I should be considering?

On to lenses. I'm probably going to be (attempting to) shoot a lot of landscape stuff. I've been told that it's not difficult to get away with a lens that has a small image circle (170-180mm), but then again I'm buying a view camera for the adjustments, so I feel like I'd rather pay a bit more for more functionality in this regard.

I want to get a slightly-wider than normal lens, something around 120-130mm. I've heard positive things about the Rodenstock 135mm F/5.6 Sironar-N (http://www.keh.com/Product-Details/1/LF069990381150/LF06/FE.aspx) It has a 190mm circle, but unfortunately I really don't have any experience with 4x5 to know if that will give me room to play.

I'm concerned about mounting the lens on a lens board, so if anyone knows any NYC local camera stores that would provide such services, and possibly be able to help me out and answer some questions that would be amazing.

thanks a bunch

-Omar

Brian Stein
27-Nov-2009, 04:27
Key first move: head to the main page http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ and start looking around

movements: look at http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/ and the spreadsheets http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/ In short a 190 circle on 4x5 will give you plenty of movements

monorail camera: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/mono-field.html for someone elseś experience.

Which camera: doesnt matter too much IMHO. the first one is never quite right! Sinar, Cambo, Toyo all fine starters if you want a monorail

lens: The rodenstock is a very good lens

Mounting on a board is a pretty simple task: unscrew flange at back of lens, poke through hole in board, screw flange back on. Holes are fairly standard sizes; baords are specific for each camera and pretty easy to come by.

cjbroadbent
27-Nov-2009, 06:05
I couldn't imagine a better choice than the Sironar 135. A press-type shutter would save you a lot of awkward fiddling behind the compendium.
Avoid a camera with accessories. You buy the ones you don't need and you can't afford the ones you need when you need them. Get a camera that folds up and nothing hangs out. Rails and stuff are a pain to set up outdoors.
This is a humble opinion, of course, meaning no offense to the toiling railies.

jeroldharter
27-Nov-2009, 08:02
As mentioned, any would be great starter cameras. The problem as I see it though is that you really want a field camera rather than a monorail for shooting landscapes and travelling.

Among field cameras you will have many options but not Sinar or Toyo. A used Toyo AX or CF would be a good place to start or Shen Hao and Chamonix. All of these cameras are a bit idiosyncratic in how they operate so the ergonomics might seem intuitive or awkward depending on your opinion. But a field camera will be much lighter and more compact and therefore more suitable to your plans.

As for a first lens, a 135mm lens is great except that the image circle on most is limiting for landscape photography when you need a lot of front rise. I would get a 150mm lens because they are ubiquitous, have very large image circles, and even excellent modern lenses like Rodenstock, Schneider, and Nikkor are really cheap used.

Brian Ellis
27-Nov-2009, 08:11
For what you plan to do, I'd suggest you choose a field camera rather than a monorail.

John T
27-Nov-2009, 09:27
Like the others, I strongly recommend a field camera for your stated intent. You can compare field cameras vs monorails to computers. The monorails, like the desktop computer have a lot of flexibility, can be easily expanded and have the most production power–within the studio. What they don't do well is travel. Try using a desktop computer up in the mountains. You could outfit your vehicle with a deep cycle battery array, run the power through the proper inverter and use your computer, but for most people/usage that isn't very practical or pleasurable. Now a monorail camera isn't quite that absurd, in fact some monorails like one made by Toho are designed specially for location work.

Sinar is a fine modular camera system. If you change formats or need extremely long bellows draw it is great. As for the accessories, they are most important if you are working in a studio, have specific requirements for the shoot, and have DEEP POCKETS. (Some accessories aren't too expensive but most of the stuff that is fun and exciting can be pricey.)

Also most of the Sinar accessories aren't designed for field work. For instance, the compendium system is very unwieldy in the field but works fine in the studio.

The field cameras, like the laptop computer is designed to travel. They fold up into a compact (or relatively compact) package. This serves two purposed. First, it is easier to pack and also it helps self protect the camera's workings-less stuff to stick out and get caught on things. Most modern field cameras have plenty of camera movements. Most don't have the fine tuning ability of the monorails (rear rise and shift, geared movements other than focus) but for most field usage these can also be liabilities. Rear rise and shift requires a larger, more durable construction of the rear standard. This adds weight to the camera-taking away from the portability. Gearing is more susceptible to sand/dirt. You should also try to avoid cameras that require a lot of grease in the mechanisms for this same reason. Some of the press type cameras and some older field cameras, while wholly capable, have more limited movements which can be frustrating.

Cameras that I have used or owned and would recommend (in alphabetical order) are: Chamonix 45N-1 (extremely light-2nd lightest in this group, but hard to find), Shen Hao PTB (copy of the Chamonix-different materials make this a little heavier) or HZX, Tachihara/Osaka, Toho FC-45X(monorail, but designed for travel-lightest camera n this group), and Toyo 45AX (metal body-extremely durable, but heaviest camera in group).

The biggest issue in picking cameras is that, as Jerold mentioned, each one has their own quirks and issues. One person will love how the camera operates while others can't stand it (or at least isn't bothered by the operation) For me a good example is the Canham line of cameras. Interesting design, Chris Canham is very accessible for questions and tips, but I found them mechanism too finicky and not intuitive. While I found my Phillips and Chamonix setup basic and easy, others find them too slow and aggravating.

As for the lens, your choice is small, inexpensive and an excellent performer. As Jerold mentioned, the image circle is a little tight, but if you don't use much front movements it wouldn't be a problem. In fact you will find that in the field you generally don't need a lot of movements. Most people starting out use way too much tilt. But you could quickly run out of image if you need a large front rise which is not an unusual situation.

For a larger image circle, you could go down to the wider 120mm/125mm wide field lenses, but they are quite a bit larger and much more expensive. Going up to a comparable 150 would get you a lens that is very small, inexpensive and a larger image circle.

sheeep
28-Nov-2009, 16:14
Thanks for the responses everyone. I'm going to B&H tomorrow to hopefully play with some of the cameras, and after reading some more about field cameras I'll definitely be giving them more attention.

On the topic of accessories, I was mostly concerned with replacement parts, bag bellows, things of that sort.

It seems a lot of the movements that limit field cameras (i.e. rear movements) can still be achieved by tilting the camera on the sticks.

I have a question about vendors, are keh/b&h/adorama/ebay the best options for large format or is there another more specific reseller site online?

thanks again.

brian mcweeney
28-Nov-2009, 17:38
http://www.badgergraphic.com/

r.e.
28-Nov-2009, 18:02
B&H's and Adorama's prices for used gear, if that is what you are looking for, are higher than you need to pay. In New York, you can also try Lens and Repro, but their prices are fairly steep as well. Of the Manhattan vendors, I would go to Fotocare - probably no cheaper than B&H, etc. for used gear, but in a different league when it comes to knowledge and service. Fotocare has gone largely digital, but they still have an analogue clientele and they would do a first class job of setting you up.

Consider the classifieds on this site. The people selling, at least those who regularly participate, are in my experience honest, and their prices usually reasonable. You can get a good handle on what a vendor on this site is about by checking his/her posting history.

One camera that is not on your list, and that is worth considering, is the Arca-Swiss Discovery. Arca targetted this camera at students, and priced it accordingly. A few years ago, they stopped offering it, presumably for marketing reasons, but it was and is a hell of a deal if you can find one. The downside, and it is a significant consideration, is that if you want additional bits and pieces, the cost of Arca-Swiss parts is high, whether new or on the used market. That said, the Discovery is a fully functional view camera that could last a lifetime with no additions except a rail extension when and if you want to use a longer lens than about 210mm, or a bag bellows if you want to use a really wide lens. B&H sells Arca-Swiss cameras, so they may have one that you can check out when you go to their large format section on the second floor tomorrow. The price that they'll quote you will make your jaw drop, but that's why you want to find a Discovery.

Re your question about mounting lenses, Lens and Repro is still drilling lens boards if you need to change the size of a lens board hole or need a lens to be mounted with screws. They charge $35, and turnaround time is two or three days (current as of last week, when I was in town and had them re-drill a board for me).

P.S. Pay a lot of attention to Christopher Broadbent, who responded to you earlier. Read his posts, and you'll get an education. That said, despite Christopher's comments on monorails, I think that the Discovery is worth checking out. I'm not sure that I'd backpack with one, something that I've never done, and probably never will do, with a view camera, but with that possible exception I don't see any downside to it in relation to the field cameras on the market.

Lachlan 717
29-Nov-2009, 01:01
If you are still heading towards the rail camera, also consider an L series Horseman.

Bit heavier than a Sinar, but usually cheaper and can use many of the Sinar accessories.

If heading down the field route, definitely look at Shen Hao.

The money that you save if you go with either of these cameras will show in you results when you are able to buy better glass.

Lachlan

sheeep
29-Nov-2009, 20:03
I'm leaning a lot more to the field camera side as many of you suggested.

I didn't get to play with any of the specific models listed, but I got a general idea of them. Looking at new available models, its between the Shen-Hao PTB (https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2766), and the slightly more expensive Tachihara (https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=136). Does anyone have any suggestions to sway me from one to another? I've read the rear standard of the Tachihara can become loose easily.

As far as necessary camera accessories, Cable release, 3-4 film holders, changing tent, focusing loupe, and a cloth hood. Anything else?

Bruce A Cahn
29-Nov-2009, 20:24
If you get a monorail, the best buy might be a Plaubel Peco Jr. They turn up on Ebay once in a while and go for about $400. Plaubel is still in business. I believe they were bought by Horseman. The camera is about $5000. new. Their site is in German. Probably the only monorails that are better are the Linhof and Sinar P. As mentioned above, I agree that you should get a field camera. They are much lighter and do the same things with few restrictions. The best are Ebony and Linhof. Other good ones are Lotus, Deardorff, and for budget, Osaka, Tachihara or maybe Shen Hao. Given no budget restrictions get a Linhof or an Ebony. The Rodenstock N lenses are not as good and do not have the coverage of the S (Apo Sironar S) lenses. The 135 is very excellent and covers plenty. I have used mine on 5x7.