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Professional
26-Nov-2009, 08:51
Hi all,

I am new here and it is first time to post here, so i will ask this question.

I am new to film photography, and i just bought 2 film medium format cameras to start into film, but i am always thinking about large formats, many many photographers who are shooting digital these days said they were using film mostly large formats maybe, so i would like to get into large format photography as well even it is too late for me now, so what do you recommend me as a large format camera?

give me more than one option, i shoot landscapes and outdoors but i can shoot portraits sometimes, also reading about cameras making me to get crazy because really i don't know anything at all about those movements on some LF cameras and what i should look at in LF cameras, budget is not a big problem, also i was hoping or wish that if i can find any LF new completely [not used], and i wish to get 8x10, but i will accept 4x5 anyway, any recommendations?!!!

MIke Sherck
26-Nov-2009, 08:59
It might conceivably help if we had some idea where you are located and knew more about you.

Vick Vickery
26-Nov-2009, 09:00
Welcome to group therepy! :) For landscape and occasional portrature use, I would suggest a 4x5 Field camera or even an older Press camera (like the Crown or Super Graphic) since you probably won't need much more front movement than these allow for that type of shooting. The press cameras, especially, are often priced very attractively and will usually handle lenses from 90mm to 250mm with no problem; you will probably use the wide to normal lenses for most of the landscape shots and a longer lens (200mm to 250mm) for most of the portrait shots. Don't forget that you will also need a tripod heavy enough for these cameras, a focusing hood, and film holders to get started.

Professional
26-Nov-2009, 14:08
It might conceivably help if we had some idea where you are located and knew more about you.

I live in United Arab Emirates.
What more details or information about me you would like to know?




Welcome to group therepy! :) For landscape and occasional portrature use, I would suggest a 4x5 Field camera or even an older Press camera (like the Crown or Super Graphic) since you probably won't need much more front movement than these allow for that type of shooting. The press cameras, especially, are often priced very attractively and will usually handle lenses from 90mm to 250mm with no problem; you will probably use the wide to normal lenses for most of the landscape shots and a longer lens (200mm to 250mm) for most of the portrait shots. Don't forget that you will also need a tripod heavy enough for these cameras, a focusing hood, and film holders to get started.

Ah ok, thank very much, i will have a look at that, and also waiting for more recommendations here!

venchka
26-Nov-2009, 14:45
Richard Ritter 8x10 camera.
4x5 and/or 5x7 reducing backs.
Lenses to match.

http://www.lg4mat.net/LFcamera.html

Have Fun!

Ron Marshall
26-Nov-2009, 18:45
I have no experience with the seller, and offer this only as an example of what I consider a good camera at a good price:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=41609

gary mulder
27-Nov-2009, 00:59
Considering that budget is not a argument, you will still have to make up you mind, 8 X 10 or 4 X 5. If you have never seen both, I suggest buy a dark slide in each format. And decide if you are willing to lug a 8 X 10 camera around, Taking landscape pictures will involve lugging a camera! You get a good notion of the camera from the dark slide that goes into the beast.

Steve Wright
27-Nov-2009, 06:53
Well, if you are planning on portraiture then a 4X5 camera with a rangefinder for quick focusing would be a BIG help. That would include the Speed Graphic and (my favorite) a Linhof Super Technika III, IV, V, or Master. They work well for landscape shooting as well!
Steve

vickersdc
30-Nov-2009, 05:36
How are you going to deal with printing the images? If you shoot 5x4 then you may well need an enlarger to suit (or scan the negatives). If you want 8x10, then you will probably be contact printing (or scanning).

Monorail / flatbed? Film negative / paper negative / glass negative (although I assume film)? How much travelling are you going to do with the camera?

There are so many options that you might need to look a little bitter closer at your own needs for your photography before making any decision - sure, post your thoughts here and I'm sure we'll all help you to spend your money ;)

You might like to check out the articles at http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ as well.

Cheers,
David.

John Kasaian
1-Dec-2009, 17:50
If you have a budget for 8x10 then by all means start out with an 8x10. (although personally I think color 8x10 would put a strain on anyone's budget)There are plenty of good ones out there both new and used. If you are intent on color get a 4x5, but if you want to do something exceptional in B&W portraiture you might even consider an 11x14 (just be sure it comes with film holders----11x14 film holders are expen$$$ive!)

First get a copy of Using The View Camera. It is a great introduction to view cameras. It will explain a lot.

If you are buying new, look at the Shen Hao, Argentium, Chaminoix (sp?) and Tachihara. Any dealer should be able to set you up with a "kit" with a lens, lensboard, holders, dark cloth & tripod. Or for used gear look at the "for sale" section here.
Have fun and enjoy the experience!

Tim Meisburger
1-Dec-2009, 17:58
I think if money is no object, I would follow Wayne's suggestion in post #5 and look at a Richard Ritter 8x10, as they are super cameras and super light, and will do anything landscape or portrait wise. For lenses, as Richard for recommendations for a few to cover landscape and portrait, then as you get experience you may want more.

Best of luck, Tim

Professional
7-Dec-2009, 08:19
I think i want a large format to use for landscapes only, later i can worry about portraits, but i really into landscapes and i want to do colors or B&W all, and i really want to go with 8x10 as then i have good large size over 4x5 for any reason, i know that 4x5 is so popular format size in LF but i really don't look for sizes as many times i feel any size is sometimes overkill and sometimes it is not enough at all and i will use any size, but i know myself that even with 8x10 i will ask myself i want larger but i will force myself with 8x10 at least, so i don't think 4x5 will make my mind over.

Anyway, thank you very much for Rechard Ritter website, and now i have a big problem or confusion about which 8x10 for landscape i should choose and which lens and what accessories, i really appreciate any help someone can give me about to choose the 8x10 with all necessary stuff [lenses, adapters, accessories,...].

Robert Hughes
7-Dec-2009, 08:34
...now i have a big problem or confusion about which 8x10 for landscape i should choose and which lens and what accessories, i really appreciate any help someone can give me about to choose the 8x10 with all necessary stuff [lenses, adapters, accessories,...].
Well... what's everybody else using? What did Ansel Adams use in his classic "On Photography" series? A little homework on your end won't hurt.

venchka
7-Dec-2009, 08:36
I suggest that you call Mr. Ritter on the phone. He has been building view cameras for a long time. He will know what you need. Be careful of the time difference. As I recall from my days in Abu Dhabi, you are about 8 hours ahead of Mr. Ritter. Not only can he build a state of the art 8x10 camera for you now, but he can build a larger camera for you in the future. Bruce Barlow and Mike Castles of this Forum use the Ritter 8x10 for landscapes.

There are many lenses for 8x10. Too many perhaps. That is a subject for another post.

Brian Ellis
7-Dec-2009, 09:36
This question has been asked hundreds of times here. I don't mean that as criticism of you for asking it. The forum is all about answering questions even if they've been asked before so yours is a perfectly legitimate question. I mention that just so you know that there is a search function here. And if you use it with key words such as "newbie" or "first camera" or "new to large format" or any other similar phrase you'll find a wealth of information about buying your first large format camera, far more than you'll get just from this one thread.

Professional
7-Dec-2009, 09:47
Well... what's everybody else using? What did Ansel Adams use in his classic "On Photography" series? A little homework on your end won't hurt.

I am not good in English or search anyway, also it doesn't matter what others like masters or pros were using, i just will choose one and good and use it, in all cases i will not be dedicated with Large Format, also even i will not use it much doesn't mean i have to buy anything cheap and less, but as you said, i will keep searching and research about large format even i don't understand much about them after 1 year long of reading already.


I suggest that you call Mr. Ritter on the phone. He has been building view cameras for a long time. He will know what you need. Be careful of the time difference. As I recall from my days in Abu Dhabi, you are about 8 hours ahead of Mr. Ritter. Not only can he build a state of the art 8x10 camera for you now, but he can build a larger camera for you in the future. Bruce Barlow and Mike Castles of this Forum use the Ritter 8x10 for landscapes.

There are many lenses for 8x10. Too many perhaps. That is a subject for another post.

Thanks!
I will call him later, even i can call him now as the time there is ok, and will check with him about it, thanks again!

Professional
7-Dec-2009, 09:50
This question has been asked hundreds of times here. I don't mean that as criticism of you for asking it. The forum is all about answering questions even if they've been asked before so yours is a perfectly legitimate question. I mention that just so you know that there is a search function here. And if you use it with key words such as "newbie" or "first camera" or "new to large format" or any other similar phrase you'll find a wealth of information about buying your first large format camera, far more than you'll get just from this one thread.

Yes i know, and i am reading some of those threads anyway, but each thread sometimes has something to personal choices or decisions, and here i said i want 8x10 and i want for landscape now, so i narrowed or shrinking my question a bit rather than looking at many threads with different newbie/first time large format questions, and i think many are going with 4x5 maybe and also some has budget issue so maybe some answers not matching my criteria for a reason.

gary mulder
8-Dec-2009, 01:15
Nobody can tell you what fits your personal way of photography. This is absorbed by experience. Thats why most people begin with a learner. Do not expect that the first large format camera to be a perfect fit. Just get your self a camera try taking pictures with it, make some of the mistakes we all have made ( and still do ), and have fun. Besides making mistakes on 8 X 10 color is probably the most expensive way to make them, photographically. And there are more to make with 8 X 10 than with 4 X 5. Maybe thats why most people begin with a smaller format. There is a less hill to climb up before getting some results.

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 06:47
Nobody can tell you what fits your personal way of photography. This is absorbed by experience. Thats why most people begin with a learner. Do not expect that the first large format camera to be a perfect fit. Just get your self a camera try taking pictures with it, make some of the mistakes we all have made ( and still do ), and have fun. Besides making mistakes on 8 X 10 color is probably the most expensive way to make them, photographically. And there are more to make with 8 X 10 than with 4 X 5. Maybe thats why most people begin with a smaller format. There is a less hill to climb up before getting some results.

Make sense, but also i sometimes start where others ends or stops, at least i don't want to take a camera that many people stated it is worse or not practical, so i keep looking for and gathering more information then i can have my final decision, at least if i choose a camera after long search and reviews will be better than choose anyone then replace it again and again, sure people will tell their best reviews of what they used before, and maybe what they found will be helpful for me to avoid or to go with, same with digital if i look for certain performances, some tested certain cameras and end up with final reviews that we as beginner may take it or reject it, and for sure sooner or later i will get one camera to use but no rush, more information is harmless anyway.
And i really like learning curve with photography gear, sure i will keep shooting and practicing and experimenting, but i prefer to do on a camera that i know i will not regret or replace it, all my digital cameras i am very happy with them because i read about them and saw many tests and reviews, i can buy many digital cameras myself without looking at tests or reviews and then end up maybe to replace one and sell another.

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 06:48
Do you know any excellent book talking about large format?

venchka
8-Dec-2009, 06:54
Steve Simmons "Using the View Camera" will get you started.

http://www.amazon.com/Using-View-Camera-Steve-Simmons/dp/0817463534

The For Sale listings at this forum will provide enough equipment for several lifetimes.

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 07:50
Steve Simmons "Using the View Camera" will get you started.

http://www.amazon.com/Using-View-Camera-Steve-Simmons/dp/0817463534

The For Sale listings at this forum will provide enough equipment for several lifetimes.

Ah ok, thank you very much!

venchka
8-Dec-2009, 09:25
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=36390&highlight=starter+8x10+lens

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 10:24
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=36390&highlight=starter+8x10+lens

I called Richard Ritter as recommended here and he recommended me 210 as wide angle lens, also i sent him an email but still he didn't reply me yet, but about lens i think is not a big problem, i first have to buy a body and holder and whatever accessory i need, and definitely i will buy a good lend and i can buy used lens here, but i want the body "New", or if lens is as important then i may buy it new too.

Anyway, to be honest, let's be simple and straight forward, what i need to buy as a full kit to use a large format?
1. Body
2. Lens
3. Holder
4. Viewfinder or something similar
What else?

venchka
8-Dec-2009, 10:30
The reason calling Richard is best is because it is often easier and more reliable for Richard to answer the phone. His internet connection is not as reliable as the phone.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/matos-begin.html

Be careful when shopping for lenses. You will want/need lenses with an image circle large enough for 8x10 and camera movements. That means an image circle of approximately 350mm or larger. A few 210mm lenses fall into this category, but most do not.

Richard can certainly build you a fine camera custom made for your needs.

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 11:14
The reason calling Richard is best is because it is often easier and more reliable for Richard to answer the phone. His internet connection is not as reliable as the phone.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/matos-begin.html

Be careful when shopping for lenses. You will want/need lenses with an image circle large enough for 8x10 and camera movements. That means an image circle of approximately 350mm or larger. A few 210mm lenses fall into this category, but most do not.

Richard can certainly build you a fine camera custom made for your needs.

I talked with him and told me that he can customize a camera for me, but let me ask this question, is there a big difference between one camera to another if same format size? for example is Deardoff different than Horseman and different than Toyo-view and Sinar and so? What should i look in large format to build my decision on rather than a weight and a lens? I read different cameras features or specifications but really really i didn't understand anything so that i can't be sure what i will build my decision on, so i hope that if i get a book for example i can understand most of what i read about the large format, and the most things i really don't understand is about those movements ability in large formats, and the bellow and extension and so.
Almost i narrowed my choice to 3-4 bodies until now, but i don't want to stop on body only.

venchka
8-Dec-2009, 12:30
If you ask 100 people you will get 100 different answers. That is why it may be best to buy a practice camera first. The lens, holders, tripod, and all the other things you need will be the same.

There is no one perfect camera. If that was true, everyone woule own the same camera. However, based on what I saw and held in my hands, Richard's camera comes very close to being the perfect 8x10 field camera.

Jack Dahlgren
8-Dec-2009, 12:47
Anyway, to be honest, let's be simple and straight forward, what i need to buy as a full kit to use a large format?
1. Body
2. Lens
3. Holder
4. Viewfinder or something similar
What else?

You need more than one film holder unless you want to just shoot two shots.

Also on list:
Sturdy Tripod and head (I'd not consider handholding 8x10)
Focusing hood or dark colored cloth
Changing bag or darkroom
Focusing loupe
Light meter
Shutter release is very useful
Something to carry all this about in. I use a knapsack for 4x5 but it would not be nearly large enough for 8x10.
Filters are often used in B&W work - you may want some.
Lens shade is also very helpful - I just borrowed one from my 35mm camera, but a rectangular compendium type is going to be better for LF as it can be adjusted as required for tilting/shifting.
Film
Empty film box for exposed film.
Negative sleeves
Shoebox

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 13:56
If you ask 100 people you will get 100 different answers. That is why it may be best to buy a practice camera first. The lens, holders, tripod, and all the other things you need will be the same.

There is no one perfect camera. If that was true, everyone woule own the same camera. However, based on what I saw and held in my hands, Richard's camera comes very close to being the perfect 8x10 field camera.

True, as i said, i ended up with 3-4 choices included that Richard's one, so i will read more about compatibility accessories of each and see which is the strongest performance or feature on each then compare which is more important for me and go with one, i can be so crazy and buy one new completely and one used so then i can have two cameras to compare but i don't think it is a good idea unless i buy both cameras with different format size.
I think as long i am not so expert in those cameras then sure any LF camera will be fine for me, i tell you honestly that i will not shoot professionally, just for fun, so maybe i shouldn't be so strict and serious about some items.

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 14:04
You need more than one film holder unless you want to just shoot two shots.

Also on list:
Sturdy Tripod and head (I'd not consider handholding 8x10) What do you recommend?

Focusing hood or dark colored cloth Such as?

Changing bag or darkroom What is that?

Focusing loupe Again what is that and which one?

Light meter I have one, but what do you recommend?

Shutter release is very useful Ofcourse, i have that as a must for my outdoor cameras

Something to carry all this about in. I use a knapsack for 4x5 but it would not be nearly large enough for 8x10. Recommend me one.

Filters are often used in B&W work - you may want some. I have plenty and will get few more.

Lens shade is also very helpful - I just borrowed one from my 35mm camera, but a rectangular compendium type is going to be better for LF as it can be adjusted as required for tilting/shifting. I will look at it and put it into consideration.

Film Mention 2 or 3 [color and B&W]

Empty film box for exposed film. Where i can find one?

Negative sleeves What is that and is there a specific brand or depends on that LF camera brand?

Shoebox I will check out about it, any link about it will be helpful and so appreciate it.



Thank you very much!
So i wrote down in front of each point some questions or FAQs.
Sorry for that, but really the answers will help a lot and saving my time on so long research.

Jack Dahlgren
8-Dec-2009, 14:10
It completely depends on what you are going to do with the camera. If you are going to carry it around in the mountains, you need something light and that means you will have to compromise on how stiff and perhaps how adjustable it is. If you are going to stick it on a stand in the studio, you may want a heavy geared camera with all sorts of accessories.

Only you know what you are going to do with it.

I'm sure that all the cameras on your list are compatible in terms of lenses and film and tripod and film holder and light meter. You may need different lens boards for them but that is trivial. It is not like 35mm where it is difficult or impossible to use one brand of lens on a different camera.

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 14:21
It completely depends on what you are going to do with the camera. If you are going to carry it around in the mountains, you need something light and that means you will have to compromise on how stiff and perhaps how adjustable it is. If you are going to stick it on a stand in the studio, you may want a heavy geared camera with all sorts of accessories.

Only you know what you are going to do with it.

I'm sure that all the cameras on your list are compatible in terms of lenses and film and tripod and film holder and light meter. You may need different lens boards for them but that is trivial. It is not like 35mm where it is difficult or impossible to use one brand of lens on a different camera.

Simple answer from you but making me like still complicated.
OK, body and lenses and film and tripod and filters and light meter are fixed.
Can you explain more about lens boards and loups and sleeve for examples?

OK, can you do me a favor? can you post your full kit of LF that you use? forget about 4x5 or 8x10, let's see what do you get rather than a body and lens.

Yes, i will carry the camera around outdoors when hiking, so i think i will go with lightweight LF, and no plans to use this camera for studio because i am planning only planning to buy a view camera [4x5] for the studio.

Jack Dahlgren
8-Dec-2009, 16:00
You don't want what I have.
70 year old Speed Graphic 4x5
Old wooden film holders
No light meter since my brother borrowed it a few years back.
Loupe made from old enlarging lens and some 35mm roll film cannisters
30 year old Manfrotto 055 tripod
Jacket for focusing hood
The most expensive piece of LF format gear I have is my 135mm symmar-s MC lens which was $150 and is now mounted on a home-made lens board.

None of it was ever new... :-)

I'm cheap and I actually enjoy making do with as simple a setup as possible.

It isn't what I'd recommend for other people though because I know others are much more attracted to shiny new things which are under warranty.

The point is that every LF set of gear is going to be a compromise from one point of view or another. I'm not going to work with 8x10 in the near future. I don't have space or time or money available to take that up. Raising my children is more important to me than spending a bunch of time with a camera like that. But we do have a good time using the Speed Graphic because it is as close to a point and shoot as you can get with 4x5.

Most landscape or architectural photographers would not be happy with an old anniversary speed graphic because the movements are extremely limited, but it works for me and is enjoyable even if the results are less than what is theoretically possible.

I'd recommend getting one of the modern cameras that is on your short list. If it is currently being made, it is completely capable of delivering fantastic images. The fundamentals of LF film photography have not changed in a hundred years so things are about as good as they are going to get and we are just arguing about fit and finish.

Just to answer a couple of questions. The negative sleeves are for storing the negatives after being processed. I you send your film out, it should come back in them. If you develop yourself you need to buy them. Just make sure they are acid free.

Loupes are to see the groundglass better. I didn't need one when I started out, but my eyes don't focus close like they used to. Something around 6x would work. Worst case you can use a magnifying glass or even strong reading glasses.

Large format lenses are typically mounted on a lens board - a flat piece of wood or metal which fits into a hole at the front of the camera. Different cameras use different lens boards - some with baffles, some with bent edges, some are flat with a stairstep pattern. But your camera supplier should be able to supply you with a proper lens board for the camera.

Once you have the lens board, it needs a hole drilled in it (some are predrilled) to mount the lens on. Usually this only requires removing the rear element of the lens, slipping it through the hole and then threading on a retaining ring and finally screwing the rear element back on. Use one lens board for each lens so you don't have to take it off and on again.

With the lens in the board, you just put it in the hole at the front and slid down whatever the camera maker uses to keep it in place - usually some sort of sliding mechanism. It should just take a few seconds to put the lens on or take it off.

I suggest that you might do well to see if you can find a teacher or a workshop to help you through getting started. The learning curve for large format photograpy can be steep and long, so you will do well to get some hands-on help and guidance. The best part of LF photography is that it is very diverse and you can take it many different ways (Velvia landscapes, platinum printing, wet plate, etc, etc, etc.) but you need to learn the basics to get off the ground. The camera does NOTHING without you. It is a very manual process and is rewarding because of that.

Professional
8-Dec-2009, 16:30
You don't want what I have.
70 year old Speed Graphic 4x5
Old wooden film holders
No light meter since my brother borrowed it a few years back.
Loupe made from old enlarging lens and some 35mm roll film cannisters
30 year old Manfrotto 055 tripod
Jacket for focusing hood
The most expensive piece of LF format gear I have is my 135mm symmar-s MC lens which was $150 and is now mounted on a home-made lens board.

None of it was ever new... :-)

I'm cheap and I actually enjoy making do with as simple a setup as possible.

It isn't what I'd recommend for other people though because I know others are much more attracted to shiny new things which are under warranty.

The point is that every LF set of gear is going to be a compromise from one point of view or another. I'm not going to work with 8x10 in the near future. I don't have space or time or money available to take that up. Raising my children is more important to me than spending a bunch of time with a camera like that. But we do have a good time using the Speed Graphic because it is as close to a point and shoot as you can get with 4x5.

Most landscape or architectural photographers would not be happy with an old anniversary speed graphic because the movements are extremely limited, but it works for me and is enjoyable even if the results are less than what is theoretically possible.

I'd recommend getting one of the modern cameras that is on your short list. If it is currently being made, it is completely capable of delivering fantastic images. The fundamentals of LF film photography have not changed in a hundred years so things are about as good as they are going to get and we are just arguing about fit and finish.

Just to answer a couple of questions. The negative sleeves are for storing the negatives after being processed. I you send your film out, it should come back in them. If you develop yourself you need to buy them. Just make sure they are acid free.

Loupes are to see the groundglass better. I didn't need one when I started out, but my eyes don't focus close like they used to. Something around 6x would work. Worst case you can use a magnifying glass or even strong reading glasses.

Large format lenses are typically mounted on a lens board - a flat piece of wood or metal which fits into a hole at the front of the camera. Different cameras use different lens boards - some with baffles, some with bent edges, some are flat with a stairstep pattern. But your camera supplier should be able to supply you with a proper lens board for the camera.

Once you have the lens board, it needs a hole drilled in it (some are predrilled) to mount the lens on. Usually this only requires removing the rear element of the lens, slipping it through the hole and then threading on a retaining ring and finally screwing the rear element back on. Use one lens board for each lens so you don't have to take it off and on again.

With the lens in the board, you just put it in the hole at the front and slid down whatever the camera maker uses to keep it in place - usually some sort of sliding mechanism. It should just take a few seconds to put the lens on or take it off.

I suggest that you might do well to see if you can find a teacher or a workshop to help you through getting started. The learning curve for large format photograpy can be steep and long, so you will do well to get some hands-on help and guidance. The best part of LF photography is that it is very diverse and you can take it many different ways (Velvia landscapes, platinum printing, wet plate, etc, etc, etc.) but you need to learn the basics to get off the ground. The camera does NOTHING without you. It is a very manual process and is rewarding because of that.

Thank you very much!

I think i should decide on one body as soon as possible and then start to buy the necessary parts for it, then let's see what i can do and learn, i feel it is a joy, in all cases i have long spare[free] time to have fun on something, so i will make photography shooting film wasted on that spare time.

pocketfulladoubles
8-Dec-2009, 17:56
Kit includes camera, lenses (on lens boards of course), light meter, film holders, focus loupe, microfiber cloth and lens cleaner, dark cloth, filters, shutter release cable, film, tripod and head. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't see that you'd need anything else.

Professional
9-Dec-2009, 03:08
Kit includes camera, lenses (on lens boards of course), light meter, film holders, focus loupe, microfiber cloth and lens cleaner, dark cloth, filters, shutter release cable, film, tripod and head. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't see that you'd need anything else.

Now i will try to search about each part that i don't have for a kit [body, lens board w/lens, loup, clothes, release cable].

venchka
9-Dec-2009, 16:05
Links & photos. Show & Tell. GOOGLE found everything below with just one or two search words.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/matos-begin.html

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/

Lens+Shutter+Lens board (Lens boards vary from one brand to another. The Linhof Technika boards are common to several brands of 4x5 cameras. I don't know about 8x10 cameras. There are adapters that allow you to use the Technika boards on larger lens boards)

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/125mm%20Fujinon%20on%20board.jpg

Adapter:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/cambo%20adapter%20board.jpg

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/camera-bag/

Camera. Ritter 8x10. Weight: ~6.4 pounds. ~2.9 kilos. The Chamonix 8x10 weighs 3.9 kilos. That is a substantial difference in favor of the Ritter camera. The day I had the pleasure of a test drive with the Ritter 8x10, I was very surprised when I picked it up. It's lighter than my 4x5 cameras.

http://www.lg4mat.net/images/810open.jpg

Dark Cloth. The light colored cloth in the photo. Used to keep light off of the camera during composing & focusing.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/446774.jpg

continued

venchka
9-Dec-2009, 16:05
Loupe. Low power magnifier for use on the ground glass to get critical focus correct.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/40719.jpg

Cable release

http://www.karlu.com/images/00005309abb.jpg

Film, film holders, tripod, tripod head, backpack or camera bag to carry everything, light meter.........all of that is self-explanatory. No magic.

Good luck!

Wayne Crider
9-Dec-2009, 16:14
I've got to ask; What is the availability of LF film and developing in the U.A.E.?

Brand wise some of the top picks in a field camera would be Ebony, Chamonix, Canham, Shen Hao, Tachihara and Wista besides Ritter's camera. Look at http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=2 for examples. Some are pricer then others and specifications differ as well as weight. The main thing is to buy something that locks down good and has a good bellows reach or collapse for the lenses you intend to use. You don't need alot of movements in landscape till you shoot in cities. If I had the money I'd probably buy an 8x10 Arca but thats only because I've seen them. Ritter's camera look pretty nice tho and the weight is pretty low for carrying.
A minimal kit would be 4 film holders, spot meter, solid tripod and a Bogen 410 head besides your choice in a focal length for a lens. If you don't have a dark place to load the holders get a film tent. Get a lightweight dark cloth. Remember the image is upside down. Don't go crazy buying the bank. Many get into the format and drop out because it's not their style. so you might start slow and upgrade over time if it's to your liking. Good luck; I look forward to hearing your experiences.

venchka
9-Dec-2009, 16:21
One more thing I forgot:

Harrison Film Changing Tent. Best purchase I made after good lenses. A totally portable, nearly dust free, dark room. Ideal for travelling.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/172905.jpg

Professional
12-May-2010, 19:48
Thank you very much!
In fact i will delay 8x10 for a while, and now i am just planning to get 4x5 first, and i just confused as i found some used one but i also found 3 or 4 new kits, and i am not sure if i should go with the kits or with used or anything else, i put the budget to be around $1000-2000 no more so i can save for 8x10, i can't afford 8x10 now directly and i can't wait for several months to get any large format, so i decided to get 4x5 to learn and experiment with it and then later get 8x10

Those are the 3 kits i found:

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=121

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2619

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=137

What do you think? also if i should go with a used one, i want it to be in Excellent great condition/ment.

Graflex Shooter
13-May-2010, 08:46
I know there is a lot of GREAT info on this page, here is my vote which has already been said,
Buy a Speed or Crown Graphic made by Graflex. Its my user name, but I don't get too prejudice over one brand or the other.

I have used them for several years and they hold up in all sorts of conditions. The back can accommodate roll film or sheet. Just make sure you get a Graflok not a Graphic spring back if you want to use roll film. They are simple to use and the rangfinders are great. The Optar lenses are great and the shutters are too. You will enjoy them. The cameras suffer from limited movements, but, they were press cameras.

I would get a Crown Graphic simply because the extra focal plane shutter isn't really necessary anymore. The curtain shutter was used mostly for sports photos when lenses only went to a 400th.

In the end, picture quality is every photographers main desire, not the name of his camera.
:)

Professional
13-May-2010, 10:51
I know there is a lot of GREAT info on this page, here is my vote which has already been said,
Buy a Speed or Crown Graphic made by Graflex. Its my user name, but I don't get too prejudice over one brand or the other.

I have used them for several years and they hold up in all sorts of conditions. The back can accommodate roll film or sheet. Just make sure you get a Graflok not a Graphic spring back if you want to use roll film. They are simple to use and the rangfinders are great. The Optar lenses are great and the shutters are too. You will enjoy them. The cameras suffer from limited movements, but, they were press cameras.

I would get a Crown Graphic simply because the extra focal plane shutter isn't really necessary anymore. The curtain shutter was used mostly for sports photos when lenses only went to a 400th.

In the end, picture quality is every photographers main desire, not the name of his camera.
:)

Where i can get a Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic? I tried KEH.com and i found them in BGN condition so i ignored them, maybe there is one in Excellent condition but it is just a body i think then i have to buy a lens and lens board and Graflock and holder and and, but i was thinking to buy this camera as some people on another forums recommended me this camera, can you help me to find a good place to buy this Speed/Crown Graphic, don't say ebay.

Professional
22-Jun-2010, 13:39
Anyway, i think i can't try to search too much and i will try to go with one of the the options i am leaning to, the three links above [2 Shen Hao and 1 Tachihara], and Chamonix 4x5, so i hope someone can give me a brief main differences between those 4-5 cameras and i will go with one i hope.

Professional
20-Jul-2010, 23:22
Hey, i just ordered Speed Graphic Pacemaker [body only], so i would like to know where i can find the rest accessories to start using this camera, i found a dark cloth, film holder, i hope i will choose the right cable release, so the rest will and the lens and lens board, not sure where to get them and which one, want to go wider a bit.

Wade D
21-Jul-2010, 00:16
Most modern/new lenses will fit. Older lens/shutters can be sticky and in need of servicing. A 150mm lens is considered normal. There are many brands to choose from. The camera takes a standard 4x4 inch lens board but buy the lens first so you will know what size mounting hole is needed when ordering the lens board.

Professional
21-Jul-2010, 01:12
Most modern/new lenses will fit. Older lens/shutters can be sticky and in need of servicing. A 150mm lens is considered normal. There are many brands to choose from. The camera takes a standard 4x4 inch lens board but buy the lens first so you will know what size mounting hole is needed when ordering the lens board.

someone told me that to buy the lens first, ok, i will get the lens first, but the question is: Which lens?

Wade D
21-Jul-2010, 16:06
Nikon, Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji are good brand names. There are others as well. If you want a slightly wide angle lens then a 127mm or a 135mm would work. I have a 127mm on my Speed Graphic and like it. Its an old lens that came with the camera and needed cleaning though. A 90mm would be considered very wide. Look at B&H or Adorama for a nice selection of new lenses. KEH and Shutterblade sell used lenses.

ki6mf
21-Jul-2010, 19:04
If your are looking at 4X5 then the question to consider is do you need to correct for perspective using camera movements, swings tilt shift etc, If you think this will never be used then a press camera would work. I suspect that its better to get one of the wooden field cameras that allow movements. Shen Hao and Chamonix are the two Chinese made cameras that are the low cost and best value for the money. Next comes lens a used 90 MM for 4X5 and a 135 or 150mm Lens for normal use are the minimum for landscapes. If portraits are of interest then a 210 or 240 mm lens would be appropriate. A good place to judge used prices is the US site www.keh.com. In North America this reputable camera store sets the prices on used equipment.

rdenney
22-Jul-2010, 05:46
Hey, i just ordered Speed Graphic Pacemaker [body only], so i would like to know where i can find the rest accessories to start using this camera, i found a dark cloth, film holder, i hope i will choose the right cable release, so the rest will and the lens and lens board, not sure where to get them and which one, want to go wider a bit.

The Graflex lens boards are nominally 4x4, but they are specially made stamped sheet metal for that camera. Just search on ebay for Graflex lens boards, or shop at KEH. Pacific Rim Camera also has a lot of Graflex parts (at a price). The Graflex lens boards are drilled for lenses that use the Kodak Supermatic or Wollengsak-made Graphex shutters, which are a different size from the Copal #1 shutters used with 150mm plasmats like the Symmar or Sironar. You can enlarge a smaller hole with a hole saw, but get the lens first so you know what size. Many Graflex boards are available already modified for Copal shutters.

I have had no trouble finding boards for my Speed Graphic, so it just takes a little determination.

The original lenses for the Pacemaker series were made by Wollensak (with one exception made by Rodenstock), under the Optar brand. They came in 90mm (Optar WA, a dagor design, I think), 127, 135, 160, and maybe 210. The 127 and 135mm lenses were the most common by a large margin. Both of these are tessar designs, with marginal coverage for 4x5. Press photographers liked them because they were moderately wide angle, given them a good close-up field of view and greater depth of field for guess-focused grab shots. These were copies of Kodak Ektars made for pre-Pacemaker Graphics, which also work fine on the Pacemaker. These are all quite inexpensive, and you might just get one of those already mounted in a Graflex board. that will get you going with the camera while you consider your more expensive options.

Rick "also assembling a Speed Graphic kit" Denney

Professional
22-Jul-2010, 05:47
I bought that Speed Graphic from www.keh.com anyway, i use them for used items and i am waiting to get my order then start to build up my LF system, i think i will go with something around 100-130, so maybe 125/127 or 135 will do the job, i like very wide but many times i tend to go wide normal not ultra/super wide, later i can decide if i want to go widest side, and yes, for landscapes i don't need much of movements but i may have some urban or architecture a bit in outdoor and landscape shots, so i need some kind o movements there, and i will start is little movement and when i know how the concept of this large format then i can upgrade to a better movements system.

Professional
22-Jul-2010, 05:50
When i will get the camera i will take a shot of it and then post it here and let you now to tell me what i should get next.

rdenney
22-Jul-2010, 06:38
I bought that Speed Graphic from www.keh.com anyway, i use them for used items and i am waiting to get my order then start to build up my LF system, i think i will go with something around 100-130, so maybe 125/127 or 135 will do the job, i like very wide but many times i tend to go wide normal not ultra/super wide, later i can decide if i want to go widest side, and yes, for landscapes i don't need much of movements but i may have some urban or architecture a bit in outdoor and landscape shots, so i need some kind o movements there, and i will start is little movement and when i know how the concept of this large format then i can upgrade to a better movements system.

Don't start with a very wide lens, which for me would be 90mm or wider. You might find that your sense of how wide you want things will be different with larger formats.

Does the camera you bought have a top rangefinder or a side rangefinder? If it is a top rangefinder, wait until you get the camera and see what focusing cam it has in it. It will probably be a 127 or 135 cam. The cams are scarce as hen's teeth and if you want a lens that matches the cam, you'll have your answer of what to buy next. The cam is accessible under the fold-down cover inside the box right underneath the top rangefinder. The side rangefinder can be adjusted to suite any lens (though it can only support one lens) so that might be less of a constraint.

The Graflex cameras have front rise and a back tilt, which amounts to front fall when coupled with the drop bed. That can be parlayed into downward tilt. But that only works for lenses that don't sit too close to the joint between the bed and the box, so don't expect too much there if you want to use shorter lenses. If you need more than front rise in practice, you'll want a camera with better movements.

I would suggest getting a matching Graflex lens and gain some experience with that combination. That will give you some insight over what you really want. Then, sell the Speed Graphic (probably for what you paid for it, or more) and get the camera that more precisely fulfills your requirements.

When I was in Dubai and Abu Dhabi last October, it seemed to me that I would want an ultra-wide for architectural work. Those buildings are TALL!

Rick "who learned the basics on a camera much less capable than a Speed Graphic" Denney

ki6mf
22-Jul-2010, 10:46
SK Grimes makes metal lens boards and you can order on line from them at http://www.skgrimes.com/

Professional
4-Aug-2010, 04:51
Finally i received my SG Pacemaker, i love the smell, can't be sure about the condition but i trust the site, and it will not be a big deal for me if it is not in very good condition.

Now i am just looking at the accessories, first will be the lens and lens board, Which lens i can get for say wide angle? Not necessary super or ultra wide, but something wide enough, equivalent to 20-28mm on the 35mm format, i can accept a wide lens up to 35mm equivalent, so what will be your recommendation? Also i heard you or others telling me to buy a lens first then see which lens board, but are there many lens boards options for this camera available anyway?
Second, not sure which film holder i should get, i found 2 film holders for 4x5 i would like to buy any, or should i look for something else in specific?
The cable, the cloth will be purchased as soon as possible, anything else?

J Ney
4-Aug-2010, 08:56
A nice wide angle lens in the 90mm range should be what you are looking for...

Regarding the lens board, it is just a question of what "type" of lens board (eg: technika lens board or Graphic lens board) and then the question is finding a board that matches that size (does not need to be name-brand).

Regarding the film holder... just make sure you stay away from wood holders (which are prone to warping over time). Other than that, no significant difference. I personally have film holders from Toyo, Lisco, and Fidelity.

What are you going to meter with?? If you have an appropriate digital camera then you should be OK in the short-term but just make sure you have that base covered.

May be a silly statement, but make sure you have a sturdy tripod.

Professional
4-Aug-2010, 11:39
A nice wide angle lens in the 90mm range should be what you are looking for...

Regarding the lens board, it is just a question of what "type" of lens board (eg: technika lens board or Graphic lens board) and then the question is finding a board that matches that size (does not need to be name-brand).

Regarding the film holder... just make sure you stay away from wood holders (which are prone to warping over time). Other than that, no significant difference. I personally have film holders from Toyo, Lisco, and Fidelity.

What are you going to meter with?? If you have an appropriate digital camera then you should be OK in the short-term but just make sure you have that base covered.

May be a silly statement, but make sure you have a sturdy tripod.

Thank you very much!

I will try to use a lens board same brand as my camera body, i can't be sure if i buy something else and then it will work on mine, so i think Graphic lens board should be what i look for if so.

I think i will be in 90-120mm range of a lens, so will see which one i will get, but it doesn't matter which brand to go with? Schneider, Rodenstock, Sinar, nikon,....etc?

In fact, what i saw as film holder that i want to buy are Fidelity and Toyo, so either of both it will be great, i may get both due to that i may get another LF in the future and those holders are cheap anyway.

As metering, always people asking me this and i always told and answered then that i have Sekonic L-758DR but i don't know how to use it properly, don't want to cheat myself and use it as simple as someone told me just to point and set, maybe this is not the proper or the correct way to do, i hope to have a workshop that i can see and take about how to use the light meter perfectly, i saw some videos on the net but i feel it is not so detailed or it is not that easy as they show me, but i may be wrong and i will see, in meantime i use any of my DSLRs to do the job, i do that with my MF cameras and it worked, but i will try to use my light meter better before i start to shoot with LF.

Not sure what do you mean by sturdy tripod, can you mentions some names that you use or recommend? mention me the best, doesn't matter the price, not always going to buy a cheap but not the best even it is working.

Jack Dahlgren
4-Aug-2010, 12:08
A nice wide angle lens in the 90mm range should be what you are looking for...

Regarding the film holder... just make sure you stay away from wood holders (which are prone to warping over time). Other than that, no significant difference. I personally have film holders from Toyo, Lisco, and Fidelity.


In my opinion, a 90mm is just barely usable on a Pacemaker Speed Graphic. I know he wants to go wide, but stick with something the camera was designed for like a 135mm.

As for filmholders, I find my 50 year old wood film holders are better than newer plastic ones. I've thrown out 5 plastic ones, but 0 wooden ones. Maybe my climate here favors wood, but I have not experienced any warping with them.

rdenney
4-Aug-2010, 15:53
Which lens i can get for say wide angle?

The wide-angle lens sold by Graflex was the W. A. Optar, which was a double-gauss design as I recall. Coverage is not abundant, but you can't use movements to any extent with a lens of that focal length in a Speed Graphic, so the limited coverage doesn't matter. A more respected alternative is the 90mm Angulon, which is a wide-field dagor design. Both must be stopped well down to achieve acceptable quality in the corners. Think f/22.


Second, not sure which film holder i should get, i found 2 film holders for 4x5 i would like to buy any, or should i look for something else in specific?
The cable, the cloth will be purchased as soon as possible, anything else?

If you want to use 4x5 film, just get a bunch of standard Fidelity, Riteway, or Lisco 4x5 double sheet-film holders. The newer plastic ones are just as good, and probably in better condition, than the older wooden ones.

You will also need a loupe for magnified viewing of the ground glass for accurate focusing. 4x to 6x is about right. You'll appreciate good ones eventually, but a cheapie will do fine for now.

Rick "whose 90mm Optar works fine in a Speed Graphic" Denney

Professional
4-Aug-2010, 16:52
In my opinion, a 90mm is just barely usable on a Pacemaker Speed Graphic. I know he wants to go wide, but stick with something the camera was designed for like a 135mm.

As for filmholders, I find my 50 year old wood film holders are better than newer plastic ones. I've thrown out 5 plastic ones, but 0 wooden ones. Maybe my climate here favors wood, but I have not experienced any warping with them.


The wide-angle lens sold by Graflex was the W. A. Optar, which was a double-gauss design as I recall. Coverage is not abundant, but you can't use movements to any extent with a lens of that focal length in a Speed Graphic, so the limited coverage doesn't matter. A more respected alternative is the 90mm Angulon, which is a wide-field dagor design. Both must be stopped well down to achieve acceptable quality in the corners. Think f/22.



If you want to use 4x5 film, just get a bunch of standard Fidelity, Riteway, or Lisco 4x5 double sheet-film holders. The newer plastic ones are just as good, and probably in better condition, than the older wooden ones.

You will also need a loupe for magnified viewing of the ground glass for accurate focusing. 4x to 6x is about right. You'll appreciate good ones eventually, but a cheapie will do fine for now.

Rick "whose 90mm Optar works fine in a Speed Graphic" Denney

Thank you very much you both!

I think the hardest part here to choose the right lens with its lens board, the rest not a big deal, but i don't know where to look for lenses and lens board, i don't want to go to many many websites here and there to buy one to another items as i am not sure about trustworthy of those websites.

I checked lenses on B&H, say 90 different models and also 120 different models, i feel i would like to go with one, but Jack, you seems know about it, for this Speed Graphic i have, i should go for something 135? maybe i can't use the wider on this body properly due to design? i don't want to do a mistake and buy something that i can't use it fully performance.

Thalmees
5-Aug-2010, 13:41
I think its a good starting point to be settled finally on Graphic type camera.
Two very important points for now(and then) I can suggest to start working on.
First: Reading abut the theory part of the process. This should include Image Management(How to manipulate image before and during the exposure) and Darkroom techniques. Though at different enthusiasm, this effort should continue with you forever.
Secondly: Start to think what will you need to build your own Darkroom.
Good luck.

rdenney
5-Aug-2010, 14:36
Thank you very much you both!

Heh. Jack and I seemed to provide opposite advice. You will find that is the common response--any five photographers will have ten opinions on the right way to do something.

The 90mm lens is used by locking the front standard on the rear section of the rails. Then, you fold the bed (and front sections of the rails) down to get it out of the picture. You have limited movements with that arrangement, but it works fine. The Optar and Angulon are both quite compact designs, unlike most modern 90mm lenses of the double-biogon type (such as the Super Angulon). They can therefore be folded up into the camera. But they are not as sharp in the corners as the newer designs.

A 127 or 135 in Graflex trim were really intended to be a normal lens of tessar design on the 3x4 Graflex, but they have adequate (barely in the case of the 127) coverage for 4x5. They were popular as slight wide-angle lenses, especially with press photographers who aimed the camera using the wire finder and who were also close to the subject to get in front of their competitors. Typical examples include the Kodak Ektar, the Graflex Optar, and the Wollensak Raptar (the latter two of which are the same lens). There were a couple of other 135's, including a Schneider Xenar, but these are more rare. Their designs are compact enough to be folded up into the camera. They are slightly wide, but not so much so that they can't be routinely locked down on the forward part of the focusing rail, and thus they provide access to the full lens movement capability of the camera. But their coverage is too limited to allow much movement.

Graflex made boards drilled for all of these, including the W.A. Optar. But you can mount any lens by custom-drilling a Graflex lens board. The newer lenses are bulkier and won't often fold up into the camera, but that may not be an issue for you.

The longest lens I have mounted on my Speed Graphic is an 8-1/2" (215mm) Ilex Paragon. The infinity stops are up close to the focus scale. A 240 might just work, though I haven't tried it. Longer than that will require a telephoto design.

I can't explain why Jack has had problems with the plastic film holders. I never did--none of mine have ever warped. I have had problems with wooden film holders needing to be reassembled because the glue dried out and cracked. You pays your nickel and you takes your chances.

Rick "suggesting a bit of perusing at Graflex.org" Denney

Jack Dahlgren
5-Aug-2010, 14:44
Heh. Jack and I seemed to provide opposite advice. You will find that is the common response--any five photographers will have ten opinions on the right way to do something.

I can't explain why Jack has had problems with the plastic film holders. I never did--none of mine have ever warped. I have had problems with wooden film holders needing to be reassembled because the glue dried out and cracked. You pays your nickel and you takes your chances.

Rick "suggesting a bit of perusing at Graflex.org" Denney

I put a 135mm symmar-s on the old Speed. Plenty of coverage and light and small. Sironar's would work too. I just find it a pain to drop the bed and use the rear part of the tracks.

As for plastic film holders it may just be that I'm a bottom feeder and picked up holders that other people wanted to get rid of - with known or unknown latent defects. The Riteways seem to be better than Fidelity or Lisco in my experience particularly in the light seal when the slide is withdrawn. My wooden holders have not ever come unglued. We don't have much humidity here. Maybe that is why?

Professional
25-Dec-2010, 14:52
Hi again,

I have a same old question again:

Let's say from those 6 models, which one will you go for if you want good price and available movements? (Price i mean something less than $3000 or in range of $500-3000)

Ebony
Shen Hao
Wista
Tachihara
Chamonix
Toyo-view

Ari
25-Dec-2010, 15:35
There's a very large and loud "it depends" hanging there, like a big matzo ball; kind of like asking "What is a good car?"
Having said that, my personal experience has been great with Toyo D and G cameras and Wista field cameras, and they were all under $800.

Professional
25-Dec-2010, 17:29
There's a very large and loud "it depends" hanging there, like a big matzo ball; kind of like asking "What is a good car?"
Having said that, my personal experience has been great with Toyo D and G cameras and Wista field cameras, and they were all under $800.

Maybe, but i listed the brands already, so the options are narrowed, but let's make it a bit less and i will take out Toyo and Wista, so now what will be the choice?

ki6mf
25-Dec-2010, 17:35
If buying new the Shen Hao and Chamonix are around US$700 new the others when new tend to be much higher cost. You cab check prices in the USA at www.keh.com I have a Shen Hao and have never looked back!

Professional
25-Dec-2010, 18:06
If buying new the Shen Hao and Chamonix are around US$700 new the others when new tend to be much higher cost. You cab check prices in the USA at www.keh.com I have a Shen Hao and have never looked back!

Yes, i will buy new, and honestly i am more towards Ebony, Shen Hao, and Tachihara.
with Ebony i can buy only body, the other two i can buy the whole kit, i am very very close to click and order Shen Hao HZX 45-IIA kit, there is also Shen-Hao TZ45-IIB.

ki6mf
26-Dec-2010, 05:26
I have the Shen Hao HZX 45-IIA and bought it as a kit form Badger Graphics in the USA. This body allows for the lens to fold up inside a box, without the lens, to protect the body and bellows it does not have center tilt on the front and back. The TZ45-IIB does not have this protection but does have center tilt and is the direct of the Chamonix. Today you may want to buy the body either the Chamonix or Shen Hao are great cameras and look for used lenses to save some money. You almost never see either of these come up on the used market. Try www.keh.com to check prices. the bargain BGN rating usually gives excellent quality.

Jack Dahlgren
26-Dec-2010, 09:49
Yes, i will buy new, and honestly i am more towards Ebony, Shen Hao, and Tachihara.
with Ebony i can buy only body, the other two i can buy the whole kit, i am very very close to click and order Shen Hao HZX 45-IIA kit, there is also Shen-Hao TZ45-IIB.

Just buy the Shen Hao kit and be done with it. After some time you may decide to sell or buy something different, but you won't know until you start using the camera!