What happens to JOBO CPP2 processor with only 1st upgrade motor? [Archive]

Bjorn Nilsson

11-Nov-2009, 09:04

Do note that they may die, but that havn't happened to me yet. I don't use my processor every day and not with a lot of developer in them, but my CPP2 is a 1'st version and it still works as it did when I bought it 3 years ago. (I found an extra processor without the water tank which I have as a backup. Cost me some $60-70.)
The upgrading process with Jobo came from test-running the processor with e.g. an Expert print drum (for say 16x20" prints) or a 3005 with a full litre of developer. This setup was running 24-7 and the early motors did brake down. I recon the last ones eventually brakes down too, but at least they last longer. The thing to note here is that Jobo is a german company and they liked to build strong processors, which is why they ran hard tests and decided to upgrade the motors.
In my mind the upgrade scheme of the motors have lead to a belief that all motors but the last versions will brake down. That isn't the case, the early motors are only a bit more fragile than the last version motors, hence the early motors are a bit more likely to brake down, but nothing says they will.

So, finding a late version will give you the strongest motor, but at a premium. If you plan to run your processor for say 10 runs or more per week, this can be an issue for you. But if you only use the processor a couple of times per month or so (like I do), it's more important to clean and drain the processor and to keep the machinery serviced and lubricated.

//Björn

Sal Santamaura

11-Nov-2009, 10:54

...the Expert or 3000 series drums and a litre or more of fluid...No CPA/CPP, regardless of serial number or motor upgrade, is designed to rotate more than 1 liter of fluid in any Expert Drum. One needs a larger Autolab for that; a 1.5-liter limit applies with those.

Andre Noble

14-Nov-2009, 22:31

Also, using bidirectional rotation option with a CPP2 and expert drum is neither necessary nor recommended as I only recently learned from this site.

Michael Alpert

16-Nov-2009, 10:04

Also, using bidirectional rotation option with a CPP2 and expert drum is neither necessary nor recommended as I only recently learned from this site.

Andre,

This is news to me. Bidirectional rotation is, I believe, what Jobo recommends. Where on this site did you find this information?

Greg Blank

16-Nov-2009, 17:19

Greg Blank

16-Nov-2009, 17:23

I think only the ATL 2 plus and the ATL 3 because they were the only ones with 1.5 liter bottles. After those Jobo went back to a one liter bottle....but it could be other reasons that determined that.

No CPA/CPP, regardless of serial number or motor upgrade, is designed to rotate more than 1 liter of fluid in any Expert Drum. One needs a larger Autolab for that; a 1.5-liter limit applies with those.

Greg Blank

16-Nov-2009, 17:37

My processor was a straight shaft motor version two, multiple years ago I paid for the upgrade to the new style motor which is basically the same as the ATL motors. The circuitry is typically replaced at the same time and older transformer boards are not compatible with the newer motor. There are about ten components that get replaced to install the new motor.

Motors get sluggish for a variety of reasons, when I evaluate a processor I look for why it has failed, first I hook the motor up to a DC power source see how the motor functions when separated from the circuitry. If its powerful I know to look at circuitry.

I have actually taken apart a couple older CPP2 motors after finding them to be the problem. You can clean the brushes then reassemble the motor if you are patient and have about four to five hours of time. The older motors do have a fundimental weakness and that is the method the cog attaches. The screw and brass bushing are inherently weak and slipping is sure to happen over time of using the Expert drums....this can appear as sluggishness and also ruin film.

I have read many previous posts indicating the importance of looking for a Jobo CPP2 processor with serial number >2200 (3rd upgrade), indicating newer and stronger motor. What happens to units with the original motor or only the 1st upgrade (changed single bearing rotation motor to a double bearing rotation motor-(as per Jobo website)? Is it that the rotation is slow with the expert drums (eg 3005), does it lead to deficiencies in development &/or does the motor just wear out more quickly. Thanks for comments based on members' experiences.

Michael Alpert

18-Nov-2009, 10:32

Bi directional rotation is required for paper processing and smaller film drums. For Expert drums it is not required, I've tested this myself in practice finding no difference in the results of developing sing PMK developer.

I asked the question of the CEO of Jobo USA when the product distribution was being turned over to Omega Satter. His statement was that no, the Expert drums were not required to use it or for that matter designed to require it.

After working on many many CPP2's over four years time, I am lead to believe that the bi directional motion weakens the motor circuit if one is using an Expert series drum, furthermore a overly filled Expert drum.

What I do find required is the need to periodically lift the drum and insure that the chemical and water goes behind the sheets to wash off the anti halation backing. So I raise my drum once per minute for this purpose and turn the motor off while the drum is up and on once its back down.

Greg,

I've been uneasy about what you posted, so last night I looked in the Jobo manual and instruction sheets for more information. (I have yet to find a single instance where Jobo's manual is incorrect, though I am sure than one can use these machines in ways other than what Jobo envisioned.) In Jobo's instruction sheets for the Expert drums, it specifically says that the bidirectional switch should be turned on for normal use. I fail to see how the Expert drums would work differently than the smaller drums in terms of liquid flow. I think the idea behind the bidirectional rigmarole is to avoid streaks cause by unidirectional flow, similar to the need to slosh chemicals in different directions when tray processing. Also, the drums are made to use one liter or less; if someone uses more than a liter of liquid, they are asking for trouble. That is why, when using XTol for example, you need to limit how much you dilute a stock solution. If you dilute XTol more than 1*1, you risk not having enough actual developer within the one liter maximum. At the same time, there is a definite problem with the small motors in Jobo's processors. The company obviously was not able to fully retrofit the processors for the long-term power demands of Expert drums. Since the processors work terrifically well otherwise, we are all left with doing whatever we can to keep them operational.

tgtaylor

18-Nov-2009, 11:11

Oren Grad

18-Nov-2009, 12:32

I may be wrong in this but I think it would be difficult to legitimately use more than 1 liter of chemistry in an expert drum. Xtol, for example and according to Kodak, requires 100ml of developer per 8x10 sheet which is equivalent to 4-4x5's. So for 10 sheets, you would need 250ml of developer. Diluted 1:3 that would add up to exactly 1 liter. I am not familiar with other developers whose dilutions would surpass the 1 liter mark.

In my experience, C-41 requires the most chemistry - 330ml per 8x10 sheet according to Kodak. But 10 sheets in an expert drum would add up to 765ml of chemistry. On the other hand processing 120/220 rolls would quickly surpass the 1 liter limit using some of the Jobo drums.

Put five sheets of 8x10 in a 3005 and it's a different story. And the 3004/3005 drums are larger and heavier to begin with.

I share Michael's view. And with bidirectional rotation, I've never had a problem clearing the antihalation dye in an Expert drum. Lifting the drum and turning the motor off and on every minute seems a fair bit of wear and tear in itself.

Sal Santamaura

18-Nov-2009, 12:34

I think only the ATL 2 plus and the ATL 3 because they were the only ones with 1.5 liter bottles. After those Jobo went back to a one liter bottle....but it could be other reasons that determined that.The limiting factor is a single CPA/CPP drive gear meshing with Expert drum lid cogs while the larger Autolabs use two.

I may be wrong in this but I think it would be difficult to legitimately use more than 1 liter of chemistry in an expert drum. Xtol, for example and according to Kodak, requires 100ml of developer per 8x10 sheet which is equivalent to 4-4x5's. So for 10 sheets, you would need 250ml of developer. Diluted 1:3 that would add up to exactly 1 liter. I am not familiar with other developers whose dilutions would surpass the 1 liter mark...Let's consider 8x10 film in a 3005 drum. Xtol, a very active developer, is relatively unique in its capacity of 80 square inches per 100ml of stock. So, if used at 1:3, that's (100ml +300ml) = 400ml of working solution per 8x10 sheet. Therefore, even with an Autolab, pushing the 1.5l limit to 1.6l, one would still be limited to 4 sheets of 8x10 and unable to put film in all 5 chambers in the drum. Other developers, many of which require 250ml or more of stock solution per 80 square inches, limit one to even fewer sheets of 8x10.

This is why developers must ususally be used less diluted (or even undiluted) in the larger drums. Unfortunate, since more dilution is very beneficial to keep times reasonably long despite the continuous agitation and when trying to operate at higher temperatures.

Ron Bose

18-Nov-2009, 15:54

How do you even defeat the bidirectional mode ?

Is there a motor position or lever somewhere ?

tgtaylor

18-Nov-2009, 16:40

[QUOTE=tgtaylor;528792]I may be wrong in this but I think it would be difficult to legitimately use more than 1 liter of chemistry in an expert drum. QUOTE]

Well, as pointed out above, I was wrong! In self defense I must admitt that as a 4x5 shooter I didn't think of 8x10 when I responded. In fact, I haven't even seen an 8x10 expert drum. But if you were using one you couldn't do more than 2 sheets at a 1:3 dilution.

I wonder how much stock developers such as pyro and rodinal - which are diluted 1:50 or so - require? I was just on digitaltruth and freestyle's websites looking for developing times for Rollie 400IR (I have about a liter or so of Xtol remaining and was looking to see if it was doable at 1:1 as I do most of my B&W by hand inversion using Jobo 2500 tank which requires 1485ml of solution) and looked at the pyro and rodinal products but couldn't find any info on the amout of stock required to develope a sheet.

Oren Grad

18-Nov-2009, 17:39

How do you even defeat the bidirectional mode ?

Is there a motor position or lever somewhere ?

I don't have the processor in front of me, but if I recall correctly, right by the coupler for the drum there's a little switch - a couple of plastic fingers - that gets tripped with each rotation, reversing the motor. You can flip it out of the way so that it doesn't get tripped. If somebody doesn't beat me to it I'll double check that next time I'm down in the darkroom.

Greg Blank

18-Nov-2009, 18:33

That's fine, the beauty of the internet is everyone can be a critic and an expert and no one's wrong :) That is until almost everyone decides to gang up and say so. Nothing new about that, but I truely try,.. not to be know it all.

I am only sharing my own experience and people can listen or not. I stated my suspicion concerning the bi directional stress on the internal circuitry, mainly because I frequently see the problem manifest in damaged processor components which are both electrical and mechanical. I also see lots of processors come to me that look like the user poured chemistry inside of them. So I was merely suggesting based on personal testing that I did. I encourage others to try in an attempt to have fewer problems to deal with as more and more people's processors age and the parts become no longer available.

To let you know the Expert drums do in fact function much differently, one they are a hollow jacket that allows water to contact the inner tubes, thats what the small openings are on the bottom of the drum. Water flows in and out of the jacket. Which is why I say 1,000ml even for a 8x10 drum is far too much at once. Because that flowing water add weight your are not accounting for.

To properly cover the 8x10 you might need 400 ml, tops....but to fully develop more.

SO:

I would split my developer and time into two steps, maybe three for more dilute dilutions. For instance PMK at 11 minutes, I do two changes each at 5.5 minutes and that also lessens the oxidization of the developer.

Now for the interior of the drum: as the drum rotates the inner cylinders empty at the top and fill at the bottom. As they approach the top the developer streams parallel with the film and side to side producing a natural bi directional flow with without the drum reversing. Where as smaller drums don't pick up the fluid and the reels closely contact the film at the sprockets where unidirection will cause uneven results. The smaller drums always have fluid only in the bottom half so reversing is required.

For what it's worth though I did find a note in the manual not to stop the motor when you raise the lift and lower the drum.....I just don't agree with the manual on that.

Greg,

I've been uneasy about what you posted, so last night I looked in the Jobo manual and instruction sheets for more information. (I have yet to find a single instance where Jobo's manual is incorrect, though I am sure than one can use these machines in ways other than what Jobo envisioned.) In Jobo's instruction sheets for the Expert drums, it specifically says that the bidirectional switch should be turned on for normal use. I fail to see how the Expert drums would work differently than the smaller drums in terms of liquid flow. I think the idea behind the bidirectional rigmarole is to avoid streaks cause by unidirectional flow, similar to the need to slosh chemicals in different directions when tray processing. Also, the drums are made to use one liter or less; if someone uses more than a liter of liquid, they are asking for trouble. That is why, when using XTol for example, you need to limit how much you dilute a stock solution. If you dilute XTol more than 1*1, you risk not having enough actual developer within the one liter maximum. At the same time, there is a definite problem with the small motors in Jobo's processors. The company obviously was not able to fully retrofit the processors for the long-term power demands of Expert drums. Since the processors work terrifically well otherwise, we are all left with doing whatever we can to keep them operational.

Greg Blank

18-Nov-2009, 18:49

A little more to it than that I think. But it is a valid point, the ATL's also in addition to the motor that turns the drum use a second motor to raise the arm. The motor that raises the arm has a brass gear that is set on a much heavier weight spindle than the cog that screws into to the CPP2/CPA. The motor that drives the drum on the ATL utilizes a magnetic sensor that controls the voltage ramp at the precise decided spot where the drum is to reverse when the polarity is signaled to change. The CPP2/CPA utilize a a small mechanical micro switch that connects to the three fingered gear....so it hits and the voltage changes polarity all at one time. Evenually the mechanical relays and or switches wear out.

FWIW no one I have ever talked with uses more than 1,000 of chemistry. Even John Sexton stated in his Jobo Quarterly article that he uses 850ml for 8x10.

[QUOTE=Sal Santamaura;528819]The limiting factor is a single CPA/CPP drive gear meshing with Expert drum lid cogs while the larger Autolabs use two.

Greg Blank

18-Nov-2009, 19:01

Hi Oren;

There are two ways to look at that I guess, I use less chemistry so tipping the drum may be needed versus using 1,000 ml to remove the anti halation coating.

As for producing more wear...well I know I can get the Motor rotation switch right now and it cost about 55.00 dollars. Even someone with not alot of knowledge could solder it on the circuit board if they knew the switch was the only bad problem.

That switch only regulates the voltage ramp to the motor and turns the motor on/off.
Usually the switch becomes loose or too tight when it fails....and the motor stops of course :)

If the motor reverses there are at least two components that a heavy drum might damage. The two of the components are on the bottom transformer board and currently cost about 100 for the parts plus three hours for me to disconnect, resolder and test the processor for return to a given customer. I am sure you can do the math at $100.00 per hour.

Put five sheets of 8x10 in a 3005 and it's a different story. And the 3004/3005 drums are larger and heavier to begin with.

I share Michael's view. And with bidirectional rotation, I've never had a problem clearing the antihalation dye in an Expert drum. Lifting the drum and turning the motor off and on every minute seems a fair bit of wear and tear in itself.

Oren Grad

18-Nov-2009, 19:55

There are two ways to look at that I guess, I use less chemistry so tipping the drum may be needed versus using 1,000 ml to remove the anti halation coating.

I don't use more than 600ml in my 3004 and 3005 drums, and I've never had a problem with the anti-halation dye clearing.

As for producing more wear...well I know I can get the Motor rotation switch right now and it cost about 55.00 dollars. Even someone with not alot of knowledge could solder it on the circuit board if they knew the switch was the only bad problem.

That switch only regulates the voltage ramp to the motor and turns the motor on/off.
Usually the switch becomes loose or too tight when it fails....and the motor stops of course :)

If the motor reverses there are at least two components that a heavy drum might damage. The two of the components are on the bottom transformer board and currently cost about 100 for the parts plus three hours for me to disconnect, resolder and test the processor for return to a given customer. I am sure you can do the math at $100.00 per hour.

That's useful to know. And I do worry also about the load induced by the continual reversing - the motor does seem to labor.

The precaution of keeping the developer volume down is easy for me, as I'm not invested in processes that require dilute developers for my sheet film. Beyond that, working with bidirectional rotation, as recommended in the documentation Jobo provided with my processor, has consistently given me clean, evenly-developed negatives. In the absence of hard data on failure rates and failure modes, I'm not ready to spend a big chunk of my limited camera and darkroom time running enough tests with unidirectional drive that I could be equally confident in the results doing it that way.

By the same token, though, if doing it that way works well for somebody else, that's cool too - the "if it ain't broke don't try to fix it" rule applies just as well. There's enough voodoo in the darkroom that I can easily imagine one approach working for one person but another requiring the opposite to get good results. It wouldn't be the first time.

John Powers

27-Nov-2009, 17:20

Since I was the one who mentioned naively breaking the 1 liter barrier above let me explain how I came to do so and what has been my experience. In August 2004 I took a platinum workshop from Bob Herbst. I was using a CPP-2 with Expert drum to develop 4x5. He said I should bring pyro stained negatives to the workshop. At his suggestion I started using Rollo Pyro from Bostich & Sullivan. Though I don’t print platinum now, I have continued using Rollo Pyro primarily for the edge effect as I have moved into larger formats. I now shoot 8x10 developing them in the Expert drum and 7x17 developing two of them at a time in an extended 2500 series drum. This past year I shot 250 sheets of 7x17 and 100 sheets of 8x10. I have no idea if this is heavy or light use of the gear.

The Rollo Pyro instructions say ”We’ll describe a typical processing sequence to run five sheets of 8x10 in a Jobo drum rotating on the processor….

“Measure out 15 ml of Rollo Pyro solution A in a small graduate, 30 ml of solution B in a second graduate, and 1 liter of water in a large graduate….”. I innocently assumed they knew what they were talking about.

I have been using this mix for both 8x10 and 7x17 ever since at the volume of film mentioned above. To date there have been no problems, but of course that could fall apart tomorrow. I am careful to lift the tank with my hand rather than use the handle. I like the idea of the handle shown recently by our Australian member Large Format Pat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ5ZFld_Q0 and hope he produces those for sale. I was given a spare CPP-2 by a friend as he retired and went digital. If this breaks I certainly will reform before using that.

If it is important to anyone I will be happy to look up what version of CPP-2 I have if you will say what indicates the changes.

John

Greg Blank

27-Nov-2009, 19:15

I would say you use the processor regularly, although with 7x17 that becomes heavier usage. The offical Jobo documentation I have states that 22,000 serial numbers and above have the last and most recent upgrade of parts installed in them.

My personal processor is around 20,000 I had the new motor installed and circuitry upgraded multiple years ago. I want to say ten years ago. My experience is that
processors below 14,000 are very much a problem to refurbish.

Since I was the one who mentioned naively breaking the 1 liter barrier above let me explain how I came to do so and what has been my experience. In August 2004 I took a platinum workshop from Bob Herbst. I was using a CPP-2 with Expert drum to develop 4x5. He said I should bring pyro stained negatives to the workshop. At his suggestion I started using Rollo Pyro from Bostich & Sullivan. Though I don’t print platinum now, I have continued using Rollo Pyro primarily for the edge effect as I have moved into larger formats. I now shoot 8x10 developing them in the Expert drum and 7x17 developing two of them at a time in an extended 2500 series drum. This past year I shot 250 sheets of 7x17 and 100 sheets of 8x10. I have no idea if this is heavy or light use of the gear.

The Rollo Pyro instructions say ”We’ll describe a typical processing sequence to run five sheets of 8x10 in a Jobo drum rotating on the processor….

“Measure out 15 ml of Rollo Pyro solution A in a small graduate, 30 ml of solution B in a second graduate, and 1 liter of water in a large graduate….”. I innocently assumed they knew what they were talking about.

I have been using this mix for both 8x10 and 7x17 ever since at the volume of film mentioned above. To date there have been no problems, but of course that could fall apart tomorrow. I am careful to lift the tank with my hand rather than use the handle. I like the idea of the handle shown recently by our Australian member Large Format Pat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ5ZFld_Q0 and hope he produces those for sale. I was given a spare CPP-2 by a friend as he retired and went digital. If this breaks I certainly will reform before using that.

If it is important to anyone I will be happy to look up what version of CPP-2 I have if you will say what indicates the changes.

John

don12x20

28-Nov-2009, 02:15

I've run a CPP-2 since 1990.
I have run a lot of 8x10 (3005 drums), 7x17 and 12x20( official USA Jobo inserts in 3063 drums). So that's about 6500 sheets of 8x10's and around 900 7x17 (2 per tank) and 600 12x20 (1 per tank). I don't count the early 4x5s and 5x7s....

I regularly use 950-1000 ml of dilute TMax RS, HC110, and pyrocat HD(no, not in the same tank!). Tmax RS 1:15 one shot is one of the dilutions and you will need the full 1000ml to get complete development.

I run the tanks with change of direction of rotation. Yes, I do stop the drum when I want to lift it. I don't stress the motor by dropping the lift down while its operating (the Jobo guy in Chicago warned me to do this early in its life)

Fact is, I've never had to replace the motor. Only part that has needed replacement was the large center white gear -- the teeth finally wore out.

So I guess I am not experiencing the issue people are worrying about. Lucky? I don't think so. (But I do have two more new units waiting for when this one finally gives out....its cheaper than finding a motor replacment).

So who in this forum has actually lost a motor and had to replace it (and the circuit board if you couldn't get the older motor)???

And are there some of you that have heavily used their first group CPP-2 for more than ten years??? Worn the white center gear out and replaced (newer models have black gears...and the shaft attachment is quite different and they aren't interchangable parts)

I'd be real interested in hearing from anyone in one of these two groups....

Check your serial number at http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/bulletins/b019.htm
(according to this list, the initial production was quantity=1(just #10593), with first upgrade being units (#10594-20455). My serial number on this one is 20400. So it wasn't one of the strenghtened ones of 2nd generation....

John Powers

28-Nov-2009, 04:25

Greg, would you elaborate on “I would say you use the processor regularly, although with 7x17 that becomes heavier usage.” Are you referring to the combined number of 8x10 and 7x17 film sheets I process or the 7x17 dimensions? If you mean the dimensions, please explain. The 2500 series extended tank is no longer than a 3063 Expert tank and considerably lighter so how is this heavier use? I am just trying to better understand your comment rather than argue.

At serial number 13391 I appear to be walking the high wire. My net of course is the second unit given to me about a year ago. It was purchased new by my benefactor and has a 23847 serial number. I purchased 13391 second hand in 2004 from an Indiana dealer in used darkroom equipment on eBay whose name I have forgotten. He also was working a photo swap meet in my neighborhood (south of Cleveland) and was kind enough to deliver. He had cleaned everything up very well, but made no mention of replacing any innards. Who knows what the former owner had done. The unit came with a 2500 series extended tank which I then used for 120 film from my RZ67. When I started using the 4x5 Expert drum I had problems whose nature I have also forgotten. When explaining the symptoms to Jobo USA in Ann Arbor I was told I needed a new lift. They sent it to me and with much fumbling I was able to install it. Everything has worked well since then.

Either I have been very lucky or the problem is greatly over rated as tales and worries get retold on film forums. My hope is that revelation is not on the near horizon.

John

Greg Blank

28-Nov-2009, 05:58

I think the first paragraph of your experience is the crucial part. I suggested the very same thing further back in this thread. Not dropping the lift back down onto a moving cog is a smart approach in my view.

I have had to replace the motor of my own machine and there was a circuit upgrade done at the time. I also have replaced a few for customers of Omega Satter, generally the circuitry dies before the actual motor but the motors do loose strength with age, as the brushes inside get carbon on them from use. I recall most recently I had one motor very badly rusted and it was shot beyond repairs, the PC boards were also quite bad - I attribute that though from careless chemical pouring. If you had seen the machine exterior you would have to aggree.

I've run a CPP-2 since 1990.

I run the tanks with change of direction of rotation. Yes, I do stop the drum when I want to lift it. I don't stress the motor by dropping the lift down while its operating (the Jobo guy in Chicago warned me to do this early in its life)

Fact is, I've never had to replace the motor. Only part that has needed replacement was the large center white gear -- the teeth finally wore out.

So who in this forum has actually lost a motor and had to replace it (and the circuit board if you couldn't get the older motor)???

Greg Blank

28-Nov-2009, 06:04

Hi John;

I was looking at the 7x17 and thinking you were using the big 24x20 print drum for that, I did not see in your other post that you used a 2500 series drum.

Greg, would you elaborate on “I would say you use the processor regularly, although with 7x17 that becomes heavier usage.” Are you referring to the combined number of 8x10 and 7x17 film sheets I process or the 7x17 dimensions? If you mean the dimensions, please explain. The 2500 series extended tank is no longer than a 3063 Expert tank and considerably lighter so how is this heavier use? I am just trying to better understand your comment rather than argue.

At serial number 13391 I appear to be walking the high wire. My net of course is the second unit given to me about a year ago. It was purchased new by my benefactor and has a 23847 serial number. I purchased 13391 second hand in 2004 from an Indiana dealer in used darkroom equipment on eBay whose name I have forgotten. He also was working a photo swap meet in my neighborhood (south of Cleveland) and was kind enough to deliver. He had cleaned everything up very well, but made no mention of replacing any innards. Who knows what the former owner had done. The unit came with a 2500 series extended tank which I then used for 120 film from my RZ67. When I started using the 4x5 Expert drum I had problems whose nature I have also forgotten. When explaining the symptoms to Jobo USA in Ann Arbor I was told I needed a new lift. They sent it to me and with much fumbling I was able to install it. Everything has worked well since then.

Either I have been very lucky or the problem is greatly over rated as tales and worries get retold on film forums. My hope is that revelation is not on the near horizon.

John

don12x20

28-Nov-2009, 10:23

I think the first paragraph of your experience is the crucial part. I suggested the very same thing further back in this thread. Not dropping the lift back down onto a moving cog is a smart approach in my view.

I have had to replace the motor of my own machine and there was a circuit upgrade done at the time. I also have replaced a few for customers of Omega Satter, generally the circuitry dies before the actual motor but the motors do loose strength with age, as the brushes inside get carbon on them from use. I recall most recently I had one motor very badly rusted and it was shot beyond repairs, the PC boards were also quite bad - I attribute that though from careless chemical pouring. If you had seen the machine exterior you would have to aggree.

Good to hear from someone who has replaced....questions: just in case, have you seen any current BMW motors that would fit? And I presume that the circuit board is discrete rather than surface mount?(I haven't seen a need to open mine...).
thanks
Don

Greg Blank

28-Nov-2009, 22:46

The small motors for wipers in theory could work, but the shafts I am pretty sure are custom made, although a good mechinist could gage an existing motor and copy the spec. The motors are DC-24 Volts. When I install a new one it requires calibration with the motor speed switch, the motor typically has what I call a flat spot that needs to be adjusted out, otherwise there is a hestitation and then the motor will speed up.
The motor attaches to the Transformer board with two wires and a ground wire goes to the motors outer casing.

Discrete.

Good to hear from someone who has replaced....questions: just in case, have you seen any current BMW motors that would fit? And I presume that the circuit board is discrete rather than surface mount?(I haven't seen a need to open mine...).
thanks
Don

Cymen

3-Dec-2009, 20:24

There is also this interesting page:

http://tech-diy.com/jobo.htm

The suggestion is to replace the Jobo motor controller that alters the motor speed by voltage with a more modern controller that uses pulses of voltage at the full voltage (24v) to control the speed. The argument for this is that running large drums at low speeds with the original controller wears out the motor because the low speed means low voltage. Low voltage with the original controller means lack of torque due to reduced current. Using the pulse width modulation controller to slow down the motor while using the max amount of current (in pulses) does not suffer the same issue.

I'm going to test this theory out. I purchased a PWM-based motor controller board from eBay (24 VDC, supports reversal just like original controller, knob to alter speed with pot) for about $35 shipped from China. I've got a really early CPP-2 -- the serial number is in the 2000 range I believe and it is well used. I purchased a lift and the 3010 expert drum but after reading about all the potential problems, I decided to swap the motor controller before putting it to use.

The linked web page addresses this for the CPE-2. I'm assuming it is the same for the early CPP-2 and CPA-2 models. I haven't removed the circuit boards to get at the output of the transformer that should be converting 120 VAC to 24 VDC.

Greg Blank

5-Dec-2009, 07:12

It does sound interesting, it's also encouraging that some people have this kind of knowledge to be able to think about and work out fixes and augementations to the processors. I support that! I have processors so anyone doing this stuff has my ear- beyond the job I do which is repairing and supplying Jobo information.

The only comment regarding the CPP2 I have is the the Motor control board for the CPP2 is a lot different than the CPE, in that other functions are present on the CPP2 board. the board has two circuits simultaneously present. On the right side of the board the motor controlling DC 24 volt circuit and the motor switch has a pot contained within the switch itself.

On the left the 110 Volt circuit which controls the heater, and pump which run off of 110V AC. The motor is easy enough to disconnect it just connects via two spade connectors located on the tranformer board. If the motor runs continously with a new contoller it may throw the existing reversal mechanism off, if that is included in the final modification.

There is also this interesting page:

http://tech-diy.com/jobo.htm

The suggestion is to replace the Jobo motor controller that alters the motor speed by voltage with a more modern controller that uses pulses of voltage at the full voltage (24v) to control the speed. The argument for this is that running large drums at low speeds with the original controller wears out the motor because the low speed means low voltage. Low voltage with the original controller means lack of torque due to reduced current. Using the pulse width modulation controller to slow down the motor while using the max amount of current (in pulses) does not suffer the same issue.

I'm going to test this theory out. I purchased a PWM-based motor controller board from eBay (24 VDC, supports reversal just like original controller, knob to alter speed with pot) for about $35 shipped from China. I've got a really early CPP-2 -- the serial number is in the 2000 range I believe and it is well used. I purchased a lift and the 3010 expert drum but after reading about all the potential problems, I decided to swap the motor controller before putting it to use.

The linked web page addresses this for the CPE-2. I'm assuming it is the same for the early CPP-2 and CPA-2 models. I haven't removed the circuit boards to get at the output of the transformer that should be converting 120 VAC to 24 VDC.

Cymen

7-Dec-2009, 20:13

I spent some time investigating the Jobo CPP-2 circuit. I was hoping one side of the big transformer output 24v DC but it looks like it outputs around 37v AC which is then converted by a somewhat complex circuit to variable DC to control the motor speed.

I'm no electronics whiz so I ordered a 110v AC to 24v DC 3A power supply. This way I can keep the new motor controller circuit completely separate from the original Jobo circuit (and easily revert to using the Jobo circuit). The power supply is going to take almost a month to get here so I'm going quiet for a while on this.

The parts I'm using:

Reversible 60W DC Motor Speed Control PWM Controller:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170401789775

24V 3A DC Universal Regulated Switching Power Supply:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260436605020

My plan is to hook this up to the incoming AC, the DC motor and the reversing switch (unplugged from Jobo circuit). Add a power switch and make a scale for the new knob that matches the RPMs of the original circuit.

I'll post one more update to this thread in a couple weeks with a link to another thread as I am going off topic of the original post.

JR Steel

4-Jan-2010, 00:36

I will just add I am processing my 4x5 in rollo pyro 500ml/10 sheets in my older CPP2 ser.# 14xxx. I read Gregs previous post about the unidirectional operation of the motor with the expert drums and modified my process to directional change once a minute during developer and one direction for all else in hopes of keeping it going. I have not noticed any change in results. I also read that use of rubber wheels on the carriage is recommended. Does anyone know where I can purchase some?

Greg Blank

4-Jan-2010, 17:38

They are easy running rollers, pretty certain we have them in stock at Omega.
We are currently doing our yearly inventory but will be back and running hopefully by Thursday you can call me at Omega our just shoot me an email there and I'll forward you details of price etc when I access my mail on Thursday.

gblank@omegasatter.com

I will just add I am processing my 4x5 in rollo pyro 500ml/10 sheets in my older CPP2 ser.# 14xxx. I read Gregs previous post about the unidirectional operation of the motor with the expert drums and modified my process to directional change once a minute during developer and one direction for all else in hopes of keeping it going. I have not noticed any change in results. I also read that use of rubber wheels on the carriage is recommended. Does anyone know where I can purchase some?

John Powers

11-Jan-2010, 12:12

Greg Blank

11-Jan-2010, 18:23

I know I have some. Not sure of that part will post you back with a price and details of ordering.

Greg,

I believe these are #92167. At least this is what Ann Arbor sent me when they were still in business. Did you have a chance to check inventory and find a price?

Thank you,

John

Greg Blank

12-Jan-2010, 17:19

Part number is correct, two of the rollers and support arms to a pack. Recommended retail around 42.00 US if bought directly from Omega. Omega as a distributor sets the MSRP (probably- based on some agreement from the original manufacturer) but does not encourage direct sales and therefore charges the full MSRP. I always try to encourage users to buy the parts from dealers that will willingly order them. Many dealers do not charge the full MSRP. Many users for sake of less hassle buy direct.

Using the part number JP92167 you can buy these direct from Omega at 800-777-6634 option four at the phone message, to speak with our customer service department.

Greg,

I believe these are #92167. At least this is what Ann Arbor sent me when they were still in business. Did you have a chance to check inventory and find a price?

Thank you,

John

Dirk Rösler

12-Jan-2010, 21:16

I processed for the first time with the easy running rollers yesterday and a 3005 Expert and the drum shook horribly while rotating. It seems that the rollers are not totally round in certain places. I went back to the normal rollers until I figure it out. Disappointing.

Also I did one directional processing this time and one sheet had an undeveloped/uncleared/unfixed area, so I am concerned about doing this again. I am pre-soaking etc. and never have issues with bi-directional rotation, in fact I went to bi-directional after having repeated problems on a unidirectional Unicolor base.

mandoman7

12-Jan-2010, 23:55

My understanding is that there is a bi-directional movement of developer over the film, even when the drum is rolling in one direction. As it rotates, the liquid is moving one way on the downward rotation, and then another way on the upward rotation.

When I switched to one direction I had no problems. The only unevenness I've had is when the drum is not level.

Dirk Rösler

13-Jan-2010, 02:23

I think the liquid still only moves in single direction in a tube. I have to add that this was with 500ml liquid and a fairly low speed setting, so I'll try with higher speed next time.

mandoman7

13-Jan-2010, 16:21

Maybe gravity works differently over there...:D

mandoman7

14-Jan-2010, 12:02

Here's the thread that I'm referring to: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=46745&highlight=jobo+direction

... and here's the quote from Greg Blank.
"In testing and repairing the CPP2 processors, I believe the bi-direction rotation when using Expert Drum is detrimental to the reversal circuit. The original design of the Jobo was for the bi-directional microswitch to be used for paper drum not the Expert Drums the design predates the Expert drum. The design of the Expert drums causes the bi direction surface flow of chemistry, regardless of the motor reversing. I have processed film both ways and there is no apparent difference to me. However I will say that over time due to the relay switching the motor polarity that under load of a fully loaded 8x10 drum something will die. The design of the circuit ramps power to keep the motor speed consistent as load is increased. Eventual a component or multiple components burn out."

Greg Blank

14-Jan-2010, 16:57

The reason that bi directional chemical flow happens regardless and I might add that I have been doing both 4x5 and eight by ten for some time this way. Is that as each cylinder "film tube" passes the zero "down position" or 12 o'clock high position the liquid is entering into to or out of the top and bottom tubes, this front to back motion is combined with a certain amount of natural side to side movement within each tube, this seems to me to be quite adequate to not produce flow marks.

For those that do not know this appears to me to be almost exactly the ANSI-ISO standard which was described for processing to determine film speeds, although sadly I am not sure where exactly I read the info. Either in Todd and Zakia's Sensitometry book or the National Archive file on Photographic Film testing.

Anyway at one point I devised a method to rock my test samples back and forth in a tray producing the same sort of consistent results, side to side back to front while the sample remained stationary on a plexiglass insert inside the stainless tray. At the time I used a water bath in an outer tray to regulate the inner tray temperature.

Here's the thread that I'm referring to: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=46745&highlight=jobo+direction

... and here's the quote from Greg Blank.
"In testing and repairing the CPP2 processors, I believe the bi-direction rotation when using Expert Drum is detrimental to the reversal circuit. The original design of the Jobo was for the bi-directional microswitch to be used for paper drum not the Expert Drums the design predates the Expert drum. The design of the Expert drums causes the bi direction surface flow of chemistry, regardless of the motor reversing. I have processed film both ways and there is no apparent difference to me. However I will say that over time due to the relay switching the motor polarity that under load of a fully loaded 8x10 drum something will die. The design of the circuit ramps power to keep the motor speed consistent as load is increased. Eventual a component or multiple components burn out."

vinny

14-Jan-2010, 18:52

While it may not be needed for even development, I found that some change of direction is needed to avoid the issue of getting chemicals to all the places they need to get to.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=57057&page=2&highlight=jobo

SamReeves

14-Jan-2010, 23:36

My rotation switch has pretty much taken a crap as it works once a session, but the negs have been developing fine in the Expert tanks. Watch your RPM's though. The recommended speed setting can be giving more or less than the recommended RPM's by Jobo. I found that out the hard way. :mad:

Ginette

24-Jan-2010, 15:18

Very interesting topic before buying an used Jobo.

I never use and never see a Jobo processor but eventually interested to buy one.

My question, is it easy to differentiate the models (upgrades 1 to 3) by their visual aspects ?

If I submit this CPP2 lift to your attention, can you tell me if it is a recent model?
Any comment about missing parts or its condition ? What should be a fair price for it without drums?

Thanks for the help.

________
Edit
Can I find an user manual online ? or someone who wish to share it?

Jim C.

24-Jan-2010, 16:05

My question, is it easy to differentiate the models by their visual aspects ?

Ginette, take a look at this url -

http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/instructions/instructions_manual_cpa-2_cpp-2_00.htm

the above link will tell you the differences.

Any comment about missing parts or its condition ?

It looks like it needs a good washing, very dusty :) if you purchase it I would
buy new chemical containers.
The Lift looks like it's missing the handle.

Greg Blank

24-Jan-2010, 16:14

Bonjour Mme Ginette;

Puisque je vois que vous vivez au Québec, je suppose que vous parlez français et même si je pense que c'est une belle langue, malheureusement je n'ai pas appris à parler ou à écrire dans ma vie antérieure, Merci au traducteur peut - être que Google N'a pas d'importance? :) :)

L'ascenseur photo dans votre image est un ascenseur âgés de style car il a les clips blancs, de retenir le tambour. Les remontées mécaniques de style plus récents ont un ensemble de Black drum clips de rétention, un clip en haut et l'autre sur le fond de la gouttière. Vous voyez que mai un ascenseur ancien style a en fait des trous pour installer les clips les plus récents. Il y aura quatre trous de vis si l'ascenseur peut accepter les clips de rétention nouveau style.

En termes de réparation, je ne conseille pas à mes clients de me payer pour faire des réparations ascenseur parce que le démontage et le remontage de l'ascenseur sont très consommatrices de temps, et je dois payer ce service. Un nouvel ascenseur en comparaison est moins cher que quelques heures de mon temps. Il ya également un joint d'étanchéité interne qui est presque impossible de les remplacer si les fuites d'ascenseur, une fois que l'ascenseur est démonté le joint est un gros problème.

Si vous souhaitez obtenir plus d'informations relatives à l'achat d'un nouvel ascenseur i peut fournir le courant nord-américain coût de détail en me contactant à gblank@omegasatter.com, mon entreprise est de l'Amérique du Nord et du Sud distributeur américain de Jobo et je réponds à tous les courriels rapidement.

Hello Ms Ginette;

The lift pictured in your image is an older style lift because it has the white clips, to retain the drum. The newer style lifts have a set of black drum retention clips, one clip the top and one on the bottom of the spout. You may see that an older style lift does in fact have holes for installing the newer clips. There will be four screw holes if the lift can accept the new style retention clips.

In terms of repair, I don't advise my customers to pay me to do any lift repairs because the disassembly and reassembly of the lift are very time consumptive, and I must charge for this service. A new lift by comparison is less expensive than a few hours of my time. There is also an internal gasket which is almost impossible to replace if the lift leaks,once the lift is taken apart the gasket is a big problem.

If you wish more information related to purchasing a new lift i can provide the current North American retail cost by contacting me at gblank@omegasatter.com, my company is the North American & South American distributor of Jobo and I answer all emails promptly :)

Very interesting topic before buying an used Jobo.

I never use and never see a Jobo processor but eventually interested to buy one.

My question, is it easy to differentiate the models (upgrades 1 to 3) by their visual aspects ?

If I submit this CPP2 lift to your attention, can you tell me if it is a recent model?
Any comment about missing parts or its condition ? What should be a fair price for it without drums?

Thanks for the help.

________
Edit
Can I find an user manual online ? or someone who wish to share it?

Ginette

24-Jan-2010, 17:37

Thanks Greg for the white clips cue. I just received the info from the seller and serial number is in the 14300 range so it just have the first upgrade "Changed single bearing rotation motor to a double bearing rotation motor."
( http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/bulletins/b019.htm )

I think the price is fair if the unit work well : 500$ with 7 print drums. Local pick-up is the only way to do and such units are not offered often here in Montreal.

But my deception will be great if the unit slug with a 3005 drum because I don't buy it to run prints but films. I actually process 8x10 films in Unicolor drums with separators (8x10, 11x14) with the motor base.

I still not have the 3005 drum to test the unit but I can run a test with the 3063 Print Drum 20x24" (included). Can I suppose that the 3005 will perform the same way the 3063 will do?

As I understand the whole unit Greg, a new lift will not include the motor nor the circuitry ? A new lift will not solve all the problems.

The Lift looks like it's missing the handle.
Is the handle a removing part or it means it is broken ?

PS: Google is not really brillant in the translation:
The lift pictured in your image -> Google translation : L'ascenseur photo dans votre image ... means -> The elevator photo in your image !!

Greg Blank

24-Jan-2010, 18:09

Hi Ginette

I should stay with speaking english then :) The arrangment you have seems like a good bargain. Especially that large print drum, which is no longer produced by Jobo.
In someone's minds' eye it could be worth the whole 500$

The double bearing motor is a straight shaft motor however, not the newest cone shaped shaft, the newest cone shape shaft- motor is most desirable because they were the robust motors used on Professional ATL machines and have more torque to turn heavy drums. So you will need to exert care when using 8x10 drums or any large drum.

You should limit the chemical amount to 500 ml. You can use multiple changes of chemistry during the process run to have enough fresh chemistry on the film thoughout the whole process time frame.

Omega Satter where I work, sells the arm as an assembly approximately 40$ <I believe>. The lift does not have the motor inside- you are correct. If the motor hesitates with 500ml of chemistry in any drum you "could need a new motor". There can be other factors.

gblank@omegasatter.com :)

Thanks Greg for the white clips cue. I just received the info from the seller and serial number is in the 14300 range so it just have the first upgrade "Changed single bearing rotation motor to a double bearing rotation motor."
( http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/bulletins/b019.htm )

I think the price is fair if the unit work well : 500$ with 7 print drums. Local pick-up is the only way to do and such units are not offered often here in Montreal.

But my deception will be great if the unit slug with a 3005 drum because I don't buy it to run prints but films. I actually process 8x10 films in Unicolor drums with separators (8x10, 11x14) with the motor base.

I still not have the 3005 drum to test the unit but I can run a test with the 3063 Print Drum 20x24" (included). Can I suppose that the 3005 will perform the same way the 3063 will do?

As I understand the whole unit Greg, the lift didn't include the motor nor the circuitry ? A new lift will not solve all the problems.

Is the handle a removing part or it means it is broken ?

PS: Google is not really brillant in the translation:
The lift pictured in your image -> Google translation : L'ascenseur photo dans votre image ... means -> The elevator photo in your image !!

Jim C.

24-Jan-2010, 19:29

Is the handle a removing part or it means it is broken ?

PS: Google is not really brillant in the translation:
The lift pictured in your image -> Google translation : L'ascenseur photo dans votre image ... means -> The elevator photo in your image !!

The handle for the lift is a removable part, like Greg posted easily purchased,
but it's important to see if the receiving part on the lift ( socket where the arm
is inserted ) is not broken, expert drums need assist to raise even with the
Jobo lift accessory, without helping raise the expert drum the socket where
the arm inserts may crack/break under the weight of the expert drum full of
liquid developing chemicals.

I agree computer translation has a long way to go, I had a incredible time translating
and understanding a german manual for lathe.
:rolleyes:

Ginette

24-Jan-2010, 22:02

The handle for the lift is a removable part, like Greg posted easily purchased,
but it's important to see if the receiving part on the lift ( socket where the arm
is inserted ) is not broken, expert drums need assist to raise even with the
Jobo lift accessory, without helping raise the expert drum the socket where
the arm inserts may crack/break under the weight of the expert drum full of
liquid developing chemicals.

I agree computer translation has a long way to go, I had a incredible time translating
and understanding a german manual for lathe.
:rolleyes:

Thanks. I will see the unit tomorrow and examine it carefully. If I bought it, I will take a great care of it.
About translation, German language is not easy at all.

Hi Ginette
I should stay with speaking english then :) The arrangment you have seems like a good bargain. Especially that large print drum, which is no longer produced by Jobo.
In someone's minds' eye it could be worth the whole 500$

I will exchange the 20x24 drum anytime for a 3005. I will be back in the Sale/trade section about after seeing the drum exact size and condition. It look like the bigger one in the ads picture.

Anthony Lewis

28-Jan-2010, 02:17

I am having two problems with my CPP2 that hopefully I can get answered in this thread instead of starting a whole new thread. I am running expert drums with at times about a 1 litre of fluid.
Firstly every now and again - and this is becoming more often - the motor just stops. If I switch it off for a few minutes, then it starts again. Hopefully someone can tell me what is happening here?

Secondly, I do appear to have a bit more leakage when I fill the tanks (I use a lift), than I should have. Again, any suggestions?

Greg Blank

29-Jan-2010, 16:14

For the motor three possibilties.

1) The motor is on the way out. It could be loosing torque because the windings and brushes are dirty or worse maybe the internal gearing is worn etc etc.

2) Or if it is a straight motor shaft, not the newer cone shaped shaft. Then maybe only the bushing inside the black cog is loose and needs replacement. New motors have allen screws at the end, older straight shaft motors have a slotted screw.

3) There is either not a good connection between the small white transfer gears and the bigger now black (previously white) motor cog. Or the transfer small white is loosely snapped together...it exists as two parts- front and back and the two parts snap together through the lift arm.

I am having two problems with my CPP2 that hopefully I can get answered in this thread instead of starting a whole new thread. I am running expert drums with at times about a 1 litre of fluid.
Firstly every now and again - and this is becoming more often - the motor just stops. If I switch it off for a few minutes, then it starts again. Hopefully someone can tell me what is happening here?

Secondly, I do appear to have a bit more leakage when I fill the tanks (I use a lift), than I should have. Again, any suggestions?

Fred L

29-Jan-2010, 18:03

if it is the motor, would it be cost effective to have it taken apart and rewound ?

Greg Blank

30-Jan-2010, 08:15

No idea what people charge for this service if even available.

I would not attempt rewinding a motor for a customer. I took a spare defective straight shaft motor apart to see how it was constructed and in the process cleaned and reinstallled the brushes. The motor did exhibit an increase in torque. But that process took about four hours as a beginner and if I was to charge for that would have not been cost effective. Plus you still will end up having a motor that was not originally designed to run Expert drums. In my minds eye its a diminshing point of return for a user.

& Off hand a brand new (New style) motor is about 400.00 in the US.

With the other circuitry upgrades required, I try to do upgrades for about 1,200 total minus shipping costs.