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Craig Griffiths
9-Nov-2009, 15:08
I have just recommenced working with the Vandyke process and contact printing either 8x10 or 8x20. I have scoured the forum for information and have used what I have been able to glean. While I have been reasonably happy with the results to date I have a couple of questions that hopefully someone can answer.

The first relates to negative contrast and the need for a more contrasty negative to be produced. What confuses me is why you need a more contrasty negative than normal silver processing. If I use a Stouffer 21 step wedge I can get about 8-9 clearly distinguishable steps when a print is made on Ilford Multigrade filtered for grade 2. The same step wedge will show 20 steps when printing with Vandyke (although this varies from 18 to 21 depending on paper). My understanding would be that the Ilford paper has a higher contrast than the Vandyke. If this is the case, wouldn’t the Ilford paper need the higher negative contrast?

The second relates to whether single or double coating with the solution is best (if there is such a thing), or whether that is something best determined for myself by trial and error.

The final question relates to the height of light source above the paper. Currently this is approximately 15 cms, but I have read where others have a substantially lower distance between light source and paper (8cm is not uncommon). Is this dependant on the light source (fluorescent tubes in my case) or is it just a matter of a closer light source meaning a faster printing time.

Long term I hope to move to some of the other alternative processes, but I am happy with Vandyke and Cyanotype at the moment, and want to get a better understanding and consistent output with both before trying something new.

Thanks

R Shaffer
10-Nov-2009, 08:23
Ciao Craig,

I do mostly kallitype, but some Vandyke. The more steps you get the longer the scale of the paper. I'm pretty pathetic at the sensitometry stuff, but consider that the Vandyke is getting tones through the densest part of step wedge. So your negative needs lots of density ( or contrast ) to do the same.

I have tried double coating a few times with kallitype & pd to try and get my Dmax higher. Mostly I get an inconsistent coating. I have had better luck with acidifying the paper in a 2% oxilic acid soak or using a better paper. I know some people swear by double coating, so I'll probably give it a try again some time. But it's worth the trying it out.

I started with my BLB bulbs at 6in ( 15cm ) and have kept dropping them down to speed up exposure. I'm down to around 2in ( 5cm ) now and don't see any evidence of uneven exposure. I have T8 bulbs at 1 1/2" centers, so your bulb spacing may effect this. My cheap BLB bulbs have lost intensity over time, strange??

Love the alt processes, way fun.

Brian Ellis
10-Nov-2009, 11:13
van dyke brown has a larger potential tonal range than silver paper, which is one of its beauties. To take advantage of that range you need you need a negative with higher contrast than normal. To take an extreme case, if you have a very flat negative, one with only a couple shades of gray and no shadows or highlights, then that's all the van dyke paper will print even though it has the potential to print much more. So you make a higher contrast negative to take advantage of the longer range of the paper.

The reason why silver paper doesn't need that much density is that it would go to waste. With its narrower potential tonal range you'll never get 21 distinct steps from a 21 step wedge with silver paper (as you can with van dyke) no matter what your negative looks like.

It's easy (and informative) to see this by doing a simple test that takes about 15 minutes. Just make three test strips of a 21 step wedge on variable contrast paper. With the first strip use a very low contrast filter on your enlarger or a low contrast setting on your enlarger head if you use a color head or a variable contrast head. Make another strip with a very high contrast setting and make another one or two in the middle of the two extremes. Write the settings you used on the back of each strip.

After you print the strips you'll see that all three settings produce essentially the same number of distinct steps. The only difference is which steps you can distinguish and which are pure black and pure white. The strip made with the low contrast filter will show distinct steps at the lower end of the step wedge (i.e. will give you good shadow separation in a print) with little separation in the middle of the wedge and none at all in the denser end (i.e. the highlights in the print). The strip made with the high contrast filter will do the opposite, and the strip made with the in-between setting will show good separation in the middle area with little to none as you get towards either end of the wedge. In other words, all silver paper has roughly the same tonal range and it's quite limited compared to van dyke. The differences between different brands and types of silver paper isn't in their tonal range - they all have about the same. The difference is in how the comparatively limited range is distributed as among the shadows, midtones, and highlights.

I never tried double coating so I don't know about that part of your question. I had enough trouble with one coating.

Craig Griffiths
10-Nov-2009, 14:24
Thanks for the replies.

So Brian, I take it then that the important part is to ensure that there is a full range of tones from black to white to get the best out of van dyke. If that is the case I have at least got something right.

Brian Ellis
10-Nov-2009, 15:42
Thanks for the replies.

So Brian, I take it then that the important part is to ensure that there is a full range of tones from black to white to get the best out of van dyke. If that is the case I have at least got something right.

Right

Paul Metcalf
10-Nov-2009, 16:05
Have you read this? http://www.alternativephotography.com/process_vandyke.html

Craig Griffiths
10-Nov-2009, 17:26
yes I have amongst heaps of other documents, but thanks for pointing it out.

I am happy with what I have produced to date but was getting a bit confused with the need for increased contrast with the process. I just misinterpreted what it actually meant. As far as double coating is concerned I havent tried it as yet, but I will be over the next couple of days.

tenderobject
24-Nov-2009, 12:55
hi guys! i just started on vandyke printing as well.. not that successful though.. i have a few questions. since the sheet film (efke 25) i used was souped in parodinal. that does affect density as well? would there be a good developer for vandyke printing or other altprocess/printing? or should i always consider to shoot and develop for high density. thanks!

thanks also to OP!

sanking
24-Nov-2009, 15:32
hi guys! i just started on vandyke printing as well.. not that successful though.. i have a few questions. since the sheet film (efke 25) i used was souped in parodinal. that does affect density as well? would there be a good developer for vandyke printing or other altprocess/printing? or should i always consider to shoot and develop for high density. thanks!

thanks also to OP!

You should not over expose negatives that are intended for vandyke. Expose normally, but develop for a much longer time than would be considered normal for silver printing to give you a very contrasty negative with a high density range (difference between Dmin and Dmax). I would recommend that your development time be at least twice as long as you would use for silver printing.

Sandy King

tenderobject
25-Nov-2009, 15:09
You should not over expose negatives that are intended for vandyke. Expose normally, but develop for a much longer time than would be considered normal for silver printing to give you a very contrasty negative with a high density range (difference between Dmin and Dmax). I would recommend that your development time be at least twice as long as you would use for silver printing.

Sandy King

thanks a lot sandy!!! i wanna try your pyro next time. would this be best for alt printing? read a lot of good things about pyro!

back to topic. :) so, then i will expose my film normally then overdevelop (twice the developing time for use in silver printing) the film to achive more density in the negative, developer is not much of an issue here right? how about grains and other usual stuff you get when you overdeveloped your negative. would the details suffer as well (just like in 35mm and mediumformat)

not sure about dmin and dmax though.. if my negative is overdeveloped can i still use it for silver printing? or atleast a normal scan.. i want to try other alt-process though i don't know if overdeveloping would help me achieve a good print on any other alt-process. hope i'm making sense here. :o thanks again for the help!

sanking
25-Nov-2009, 21:19
thanks a lot sandy!!! i wanna try your pyro next time. would this be best for alt printing? read a lot of good things about pyro!

back to topic. :) so, then i will expose my film normally then overdevelop (twice the developing time for use in silver printing) the film to achive more density in the negative, developer is not much of an issue here right? how about grains and other usual stuff you get when you overdeveloped your negative. would the details suffer as well (just like in 35mm and mediumformat)

not sure about dmin and dmax though.. if my negative is overdeveloped can i still use it for silver printing? or atleast a normal scan.. i want to try other alt-process though i don't know if overdeveloping would help me achieve a good print on any other alt-process. hope i'm making sense here. :o thanks again for the help!

Pyrocat-HD is definitely a good developer for alternative printing. The stain gives a boost in contrast and sharpness is excellent.

Basically I don't know if it is possible to make a negative that will print well in both vandyke and regular silver printing. If you develop long enough to get the contrast you need for vandyke you will have to print in silver with a very low contrast filter. That may work, but the requirements for the two processes are so different you would probably get better results optimizing your development for one or the other.

Sandy King

tenderobject
25-Nov-2009, 22:17
Pyrocat-HD is definitely a good developer for alternative printing. The stain gives a boost in contrast and sharpness is excellent.

Basically I don't know if it is possible to make a negative that will print well in both vandyke and regular silver printing. If you develop long enough to get the contrast you need for vandyke you will have to print in silver with a very low contrast filter. That may work, but the requirements for the two processes are so different you would probably get better results optimizing your development for one or the other.

Sandy King

thank you again sandy! :)

J. E. Brown
15-Oct-2010, 10:04
A quick question regarding a part of Vandyke processing.

Part of the formula I will be using requires tartaric acid. I have found where I can order this, but would cream of tartar (potassium hydrogen tartrate) work as well?

Just a quick thought, as I have all of the other reagents on hand, and don't want to invest too heavily into the Vandyke process if it isn't going to be for me.

As always, thanks for the replies.


Kind regards,

-J.B.

jp
15-Oct-2010, 11:51
I bought a kit from Bostick & Sullivan; was easier and probably cheaper than tracking down the various ingredients in random volumes. They can get you started for $26.95.

J. E. Brown
15-Oct-2010, 12:04
jp498,

The only thing I am lacking in my laboratory right now is tartaric acid. If I where able to use cream of tartar in place of tartaric acid, I would be able to try a few practice sheets this weekend with a simple trip to my spice cupboard.

I might try it anyway to satisfy my curiosity and get the kit and see what the differences are. Unless someone else has already tried this?


$26.95 is very reasonable to get started though. Thanks for the tip.


Kind regards,

-J.B.

Tim Povlick
15-Oct-2010, 12:24
I've tried double coating numerous times with Van Dyke process and each time it seems the image is forming on top of the original coat. Now I make sure the first coat is good and leave it at that.

For film, one can't beat Kodak Aero PanX-II for contrast, if you can find it. A good alternative is Tmax-400.

I expose using the sun which really makes for some variability but after some experience one can check the exposure before developing. There does seem to be a big difference in results once it's past 4PM local time. Around noon +/- is better.

One can tone in a Platinum toner to get the brown more black. Maybe print will last longer also.

I use the Bostick & Sullivan kit. They have Pd toner as well.

This is much easier process than Pd - gave up on that.

_ .. --
Tim

sanking
15-Oct-2010, 15:09
Assuming that your coating technique is good and that you have a good negative and that your process vandyke well there is no question but that double coating will give slightly more Dmax (shadow density) than single coating. This is true for most other hand coated processes as well, say true kallitype or pt/pd.

However, the double coating does not have to be 100% vandyke sensitizer. I dilute the first coat one part vandyke sensitizer + one art water, and follow with a full strength solution about five minutes later. This works as well (in terms of shadow density) as two full strength coats.

Sandy

CharlesWest
18-Oct-2010, 18:51
I've been doing Van Dykes quite a while now. I can't speak for anywhere else, but, in California, you need to crank up the room to around 80 degrees and 70 percent humidity, and keep the paper in that room for at least an hour. Coat the paper (I use Arches Platine, or Bienfang 360) with a Purdy 2" brush, and do it under pretty bright light. Bright enough, so after coating back and forth, up and down two or three time, you can see a completely even shine over the whole top of the coated space. It must be completely even, and wet, but not sopping. Then, you can turn out the light and shut the door for ten minutes and wait for the shine to dry a bit. When the shine is gone, blow dry with a hair dryer till it's dry, on both sides. Immediately print. Otherwise, if you take the paper out of the room, the lack of humidity will dry it farther, and everything is ruined. With duplicating film, I can get great D-Max at around 6:30 minutes. With OHP, 11:30 minutes. Both, with potassium dichromate in the water bath "developer." I never have to coat twice using this method. Perfect D-Max every time. You must test for your exposure unit, the paper, and the chemistry. Change any one of those, and your numbers will change.

With silver gelatin negatives, d-max times are meaningless. Every negative taken under different circumstances will have a different exposure time, some up to 45 minutes to get any kind of highlight detail. Don't forget the dichromate in the developer.
My exposure unit is 4 two foot black lights, about 3 inches above the glass.

Toning in selenium works great, too, but you need to overexpose around 20%. I'll post if I get round to it. Just did some tests. One capful Kodak Rapid Selenium toner in one quart water works great. Remember, it does bleach the entire image.
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/Moncoon/Selenium.jpg

Hot off the press, just dried, over exposed too far, but still a decent proof print. Selenium toned Van Dyke, single coating.

Reading the information on the back, I just figured out my mistake. My older exposure unit is considerably slower than my newer unit. I used the wrong unit. Back to printing...

D. Bryant
18-Oct-2010, 21:32
I've been doing Van Dykes quite a while now. Back to printing...

That image is very pretty Charles.

How do you fix your VDBs?

And do you tone after or before fixing?

And how much dichromate do you use? And why?

Don Bryant

CharlesWest
19-Oct-2010, 00:35
Unless your negative is perfect, or digital, you'll probably need a bit of dichromate in the water to get any kind of highlights. Test about three prints processed exactly the same way, except for water/dichromate. Start with 5-10 drops per quart and go from there. Very little is quite strong.

If I'm not toning: water, fix 1, fix 2, hypo clear, wash.
If I am toning: water, toner, fix 1, fix 2, hypo clear, wash.

Palladium or platinum or both work fine, too, as toners.
(Since selenium toner is 1/3 rapid fixer!! you almost don't need to fix at all, but I do anyway for consistency.)

CharlesWest
19-Oct-2010, 00:38
You're trying to compare apples to oranges with silver gelatin and Van Dyke negative comparisons. Stop trying. You need two different negatives. There's something about emulsion curves you're not understanding. Every emulsion with every paper has a different characteristic curve. I need three negatives for printing silver gelatin, Van Dyke, and cyanotype, and yet another for pt/pd, but you can often get away using the same negative for pt/pd that you use for Van Dyke.

D. Bryant
19-Oct-2010, 05:31
(Since selenium toner is 1/3 rapid fixer!! you almost don't need to fix at all, but I do anyway for consistency.)

Ah, what kind of fixer do you use?

Thanks,

Don

CharlesWest
19-Oct-2010, 07:38
Sodium thiosulfate crystals. 30g per 1000ml for a 3% solution. Two baths. Change A after ten prints with B, and mix up a new B.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=sodium+thiosulfate&btnG=Google+Search#q=sodium+thiosulfate&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=rRt&sa=G&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&prmd=ivs&source=univ&tbs=shop:1&tbo=u&ei=Cq69TKGfK4HEsAOX1IybDQ&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CEAQrQQwAg&fp=634607d52d82d8c1

Please review John Barnier's book:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=NTt&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&q=john+barnier&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2628541122830396079&ei=fK-9TIzTM4G6sAPivdWBDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDsQ8wIwAA#

and Christopher Jame's book:
http://www.christopherjames-studio.com/build/thebookreviews.html

I'm only parroting back information I've used from those two books. Read carefully, and about all processes, though. Sometimes, you can find a sentence in another process that'll save the day for what you're currently doing.

I can't seem to edit my first post anymore, but, you're going to have a heck of a time getting decent d-Max without humidifying the paper first, or using two coats.
You can store Van Dyke paper, but then you want to dry it out best as possible. Just be sure to rehydrate before printing.
I've only been able to store cyanotype paper for two or three days before chemical fog sets in. Which, can also be useful! And, Bienfang 360 stores much better than any other paper already coated.

D. Bryant
19-Oct-2010, 14:44
I'm only parroting back information I've used from those two books.

Thanks Charles.

Don Bryant

reyno bundit
20-Oct-2010, 12:08
i use a second coat of sensitizer , allow to dry between coats, a drop or two of dichromate helps with contrast ,dont use too much though.

negs are over developed to hold highlights double time at least.

also a double coat of gelatin, i soak in 4% gel + 1% of 3% dichromate solution, then dry followed by a brush coat of the same gel + dichro
then dry and tan in u.v light.
then a 10 min soak in clearing agent metabisulphate
30 min wash and dry

not quick but gives a nice look

D. Bryant
20-Oct-2010, 12:30
also a double coat of gelatin, i soak in 4% gel + 1% of 3% dichromate solution, then dry followed by a brush coat of the same gel + dichro
then dry and tan in u.v light.


What is the purpose of this step?

Thanks,

Don

reyno bundit
20-Oct-2010, 12:49
well i use it for carbon rag support, so i thought id give it a go with VD , trying to get the gel to sit higher on the paper and to get a smoother surface.

it worked increased sharpness deeper tones and a nice sheen.

i am in the testing stage in doing the same with albumen for VD

hope this helps

Reyno

D. Bryant
20-Oct-2010, 19:46
well i use it for carbon rag support, so i thought id give it a go with VD , trying to get the gel to sit higher on the paper and to get a smoother surface.

it worked increased sharpness deeper tones and a nice sheen.

i am in the testing stage in doing the same with albumen for VD

hope this helps

Reyno

Okay so you are using the dichromate + UV to harden the gelatin, I understand now.

So are you putting the gelatin on after the VDB exposure or coating the VDB sensitizer over the gelatin layer?

Thanks,

Don

reyno bundit
21-Oct-2010, 06:29
hi

im treating the paper in advance of the vd sensitiser

i soak to saturate the paper ,dry ,then coat with a quality smooth 1 inch paste brush to get a reasonably heavy even top coat ,dry once more and expose for 15 min in a u.v burner.

10 min soak in metabisulphate to clear the dichro, wash for 30 min and dry.

it can help at this point to dry flat using watercolour tape on glass.

then you have a nice hardened layer that resists brush sensitisation and of course temp if applicable

i am also going to try multi layer coats using u.v in between coatings to increase gel coating stability
a bit like albumen multi layers without the cracking (fingers crossed)

this tech is great when using wood pulp based art paper as it resists the fibre swelling that normally rules out this paper choice

its fun experimenting

Reyno