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View Full Version : Bag Bellows on a Chamonix with a 72XL?



joshdaskew
5-Nov-2009, 04:24
Hi, I currently own a Chamonix 45N-1 that has come with the universal bellows and am looking to get a Schneider 72mm XL and was just wondering if

A: That lens is useable with this bellows or if I really need to get a bag bellows?

B: Is the coverage on that lens overkill considering the camera I am using (mainly for architecture)?

I have used a Rodenstock 75mm on it and found out I ran out of front rise (given the constriction of the bellows) before I ran out of coverage, so I can only imagine this situation would be the same or worse with the 72XL, unless the wide angle bellows offer much more flexibility and enable me to use more of the front rise stated in the cameras specs.

Or, am I better off just looking for a 75mm at a much cheaper price?

Ok, thanks, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Best Regards Josh

Lachlan 717
5-Nov-2009, 06:41
B: Is the coverage on that lens overkill considering the camera I am using (mainly for architecture)?

I have used a Rodenstock 75mm on it and found out I ran out of front rise (given the constriction of the bellows) before I ran out of coverage, so I can only imagine this situation would be the same or worse with the 72XL, unless the wide angle bellows offer much more flexibility and enable me to use more of the front rise stated in the cameras specs.

Josh,

The 72mm XL is commonly thought of as the iconic 4x5 architectural lens for two main reasons: first, it is razor sharp. Probably more important, it has a (relatively) massive image circle.

If, as you say, architecture is a passion, I can highly recommend the bag bellows. Regardless of front rise (no idea on a Chamonix), bags make it so much easier to use a lens like this.

If you can afford the 72mm XL, don't waste any more of your time considering any other lens.

Lachlan.

PS,

You'll need to really, really consider getting the centre filter for this lens. It will be essential if you're shooting positives.

Clement Apffel
5-Nov-2009, 11:16
Hi.

For your setting, maybe the universal bellows and a recessed lens board would be the way to go.
The bag bellows are not usable with all super-wide focal length. I explained why in another post about using a 65mm on the 45N-1, allow me to quote it:


I am currently gathering information concerning the use of a 65mm lens on the Chamonix 45N-1.

I own myself a bag bellow and I suggest that you check that item before you purchase it.
Allow me to explain :

for such short focal lens, the standards are very close to each other. and on the 45N-1, the knobs and other settings devices restrain the bag bellow quite hardly in that setting of the camera.
the bellow is quite large and it limits the distance between standards when trying to reach the 65mm distance needed to focus at infinity : it is "crushed" between metal devices underneath the standards.

In the other hand and paradoxically: the default bellow can be compressed a lot more than the bag bellow if in the good alignement. but does not allow a millimeter of movement once set up.
But you can focus a 65mm at infinity without hurting your bellow. according to my tests, you can't achieve that with the bag bellow.

The no movement issue isn't actually one to me as I want to use the Schneider Super-Angulon 65mm f/8 on 4x5" film. and this lens does not allow movements on 4x5" anyway.
But if you want to use it with a 6x7 rollback, then I understand you'll need some movement ability.

I do not own the universal bellow, but my bet would be that this bellow is the best solution if you want movements on a 65mm setting.

So make sure you can focus your 72 at infinity with the bag bellows.
And make sure it won’t restrain your movements.

Run this test with the bag bellows: Even without owning the lens you can test this by setting your front and rear standards at the flange focal distance (by measuring distance between standards): see if it is reachable and how much movements are allowed. (not sure if "flange" is the right english term : if not, i mean the physical distance of infinity focus wich is usually NOT equal to the focal distance)
That would be the 72XL on flat lensboard focused at infinity setting.
Add 10mm to the flange focal distance if you want to test the recessed lensboard setting.
(Recessed lensboards are available in 5mm and 10mm)

For the 72/5,6 Super-Angulon XL I believe the flange focal to be 82,2mm.
You can find such info here :

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/archiv.htm

Hope it helps.

joshdaskew
6-Nov-2009, 20:32
Hi, Thanks so much for your responses, much appreciated. I don't own either of the two items mentioned, only the universal bellows with a variety of other lenses. I guess I was really hoping to hear from someone who had the Chamonix 45N-1 and the 72XL. I have a feeling that this lens might be overkill (in terms of the image circle it provides compared to how much of that I can actually use) for this camera and I might be better off going for a modern 75mm (which is a lot cheaper). Is there a way of working out the relationship between front rise (listed as 45mm on the Chamonix) and image circle of the lens.. ie on Schneiders website, the 72 XL is listed as " The lens has a 115 degree angle of coverage at f22, producing a 229mm image circle at f22. This allows shift of up to 50mm vertically and 44mm horizontally with 4x5 inch film." So by that theory, the lens has more coverage than the camera has capabilities to provide but I guess my real question is, how close does the Chamonix come to accessing its full range of movements when being used with such a wide focal length? Ok, thanks again for your responses. Best Regards Josh.

stealthman_1
6-Nov-2009, 23:32
I don't know about the 72XL, but I will say this in response to the comment about the recessed board...Pain in the arse!:p I have the Rodenstock 75mm as well mounted in a recessed board so I can shoot it on the Chamonix with a 6x17 back (as well as a 47XL on a deeply recessed Linhof board) and I hate fumbling with recessed boards! Hope you have tiny fingers if you go this route...

Lachlan 717
7-Nov-2009, 00:38
I don't know about the 72XL, but I will say this in response to the comment about the recessed board...Pain in the arse!:p I have the Rodenstock 75mm as well mounted in a recessed board so I can shoot it on the Chamonix with a 6x17 back (as well as a 47XL on a deeply recessed Linhof board) and I hate fumbling with recessed boards! Hope you have tiny fingers if you go this route...

Couldn't agree more with Linhof-style boards. I've tried my 72mm in one and found it basically unusable. Mind you, I don't wear a glove when I'm playing golf as I can't find a brand that fits, so if you have dainty, tweezer-like fingers, you might be fine.

As for seeing the movements, have a look at this great chart. (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html)

My only advice for 72mm v 75mm is to consider your future needs. If you find that you really dig architectural shooting, you will probably end up with a monorail camera for maximising movement. This, of course, is a lot less portable, but you will not be trekking miles with it. You can often get there on hard surfaces, making a trolley an option.

If you do go down this path, I would suggest that the 72mm will be a much better option than a smaller image-circled 75mm.

You can also use it on a 6x17 pano or a 5x7.

Lachlan.

stealthman_1
8-Nov-2009, 14:49
Yes, an important point. While I use my Rodenstock 75mm with a 6x17 back, it only covers about 15cm...I forgot that!

mortensen
12-Nov-2009, 00:43
I'm also strongly considering the 72XL for my chamonix 45n-1 (when funds sometime allow, that is)... Just out of curiosity - none of you experience problems with the 'bed' showing up in the frame with, say, 72mm or 65mm? Using fall must be a bit limited, right?
thanks

Clement Apffel
12-Nov-2009, 10:03
if you mount your front standard on the first socket and move the rear standard forward, there is nothing left in front of the lens to enter the frame. whatever super-wide lens you'll use.

I use a super-angulon 65 f/8. And I mount it on the fourth socket cause it has no movements ability on 4x5" anyway.
No problems even with vertical framing.

hope it helps.

mortensen
12-Nov-2009, 14:15
hahaha... I'm a fool. you just made me realize how much movement the screws underneath enables. It's a pretty flexible camera we have, innit?
thanks! :)

Clement Apffel
13-Nov-2009, 02:30
It's a pretty flexible camera we have, innit?

Yes indeed it is !

But let's render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's :
Chamonix copied this very clever design from philips cameras.

But you probably knew that already.

anyway, have fun !
I can't wait this week-end to shoot some chromes again with it :D

pocketfulladoubles
13-Nov-2009, 09:38
And just in case you didn't see them, there are two tabs under the sides of the rear standard that allows for about 20 degrees of tilt past vertical. So, with a large image circle, you can rotate your tripod head forward dropping the front, and tile the front and rear standards back 20 degrees and you have a whole world of front fall now.

Clement Apffel
13-Nov-2009, 11:29
indeed. it is some kind of indirect bed drop.

this technique probably allows to mount any wide angle lens on lasts sockets. This way, you won't have to forward the rear standard to focus.

But I personally prefer the front socket solution.

mortensen
13-Nov-2009, 19:51
... I know about the tabs and the philips origin - but thanks anyways :)

joshdaskew
15-Nov-2009, 18:32
Hi, Thanks again for the responses, especially for Lachlan 617 for forwarding that chart on, really, really helpful! At this stage I am really still a little unclear as to whether to aim for a 72XL or not because it is about double the price of another modern 75mm lens. I like the idea of it because it is meant to be super sharp and is a wider enough focal length for me not to want to go wider ( I think ). So I guess there is nobody out there who has actually used one with the Chamonix 45N-1? As I imagine it, the bellows get very limited at this focal length and therefore you are restricted with how much front rise is available? The specifications given on the Chamonix website are only really talking about movements when not restricted by bellows so these are not a true measure to read from... Ok, thanks again for all the comments, much appreciated! Best Regards Josh