what do i do with expired color negative film?

[morlinghaus]

hi,

i just cleared out my refrigerator and found tons of cn film. the oldest expired 2001, most of it expired 2004-2006. i am scanning the negs so i have a certain control. are there people out there that can tell me how this film will behave? could i do assigned work with it? i will leave for colombia and have to process the film there on a jobo so i can't really test it before.
thanks in advance,
christoph morlinghaus

www.morlinghaus.com

[Bosaiya]

I use expired film all the time. You will really want to test it first for any application where "creative" is not a good descriptor for the output as the results can be unpredictable. Usually the color will shift a bit, same with contrast.

If it's mission-critical work you're doing for someone else then pony up the cash for some fresh film.

[venchka]

Send it to me. Yours is newer than mine.

[Glenn Thoreson]

I use expired film a lot. Color negative film can be unpredicable, though. I keep mine frozen, which makes it last much longer. When shooting on assignment, however, I wouldn't gamble. Get fresh film for your shoot.

[Daniel_Buck]

Yea, it should be pretty usable. You may get a little bit of color casting, but since you are scanning them, that will probably be easily dealt with. :)

[anchored]

It was asked "could I do assigned work with it?"

I personally would NEVER use expired film for an important project... especially expired by that much, and especially negative films. I've had two occurrences where I've tried expired film (expired by 2-3 years). One was using NPC, and the other Reala (both medium format roll film). Results for both equated more than a little color casting and loss of color intensities... so much (especially with Reala) that corrections in scanning/editing could not correct the images.

I personally would relegate badly expired film for use in non-critical images, and not consider its use for anything of an important nature. Film is a relatively cheap part of shoot when travel is involved... so... why take a chance with very old outdated film?

[r.e.]

Glenn,

If you know, were your bad experiences with film that had been kept at room temperature, in a fridge or in a freezer? I've just acquired a commercial freezer, for other reasons, and I'm thinking of stocking up on some 5x7 film in light of questions about availability.

[Daniel_Buck]

I personally would relegate badly expired film for use in non-critical images, and not consider its use for anything of an important nature. Film is a relatively cheap part of shoot when travel is involved... so... why take a chance with very old outdated film?
that sounds like good advice :)

[anchored]

Glenn,

If you know, were your bad experiences with film that had been kept at room temperature, in a fridge or in a freezer? I've just acquired a commercial freezer, for other reasons, and I'm thinking of stocking up on some 5x7 film in light of questions about availability.

r.e. - Concerning storage of the film I had bad experiences with:

The bad Fuji Reala (imported film) was newly purchased from a camera store at a "discount" price knowing it was expired film. Film storage as shipped or stored by the merchant was unknown. I bought 20-rolls... shot 4 rolls on a vacation... threw away the balance after seeing results.

The bad Fuji NPC was stored by me for quite a few years in a refrigerator.

I usually buy film in fairly large quantities, and keep it stored refrigerated in air-tight plastic containers... have a full-sized refrigerator/freezer dedicated for film storage. I rarely shoot color negative film, and in all honesty have never had any issues with expired transparency film... but I generally discard any films expired by more than 2-years.

[Sascha Welter]

Whatever you do, I wouldn't throw it away. There's always someone who likes to play with the stuff, some student or someone who's learning with their LF camera just now.

[venchka]

... but I generally discard any films expired by more than 2-years.

Hey Glenn, help a neighbor out! The next time you are in discard mode I would be happy to give your expired film a good home. 4x5 or smaller. Trade or coin of the realm is always a possiblity.

Don't I have your Zone VI tripod by way of Eugene? I tried to buy the camera without the tripod. I'm glad Eugene convinced me to keep the set together. It's a good tripod.

Have y'all dried out yet?

Cheers.

Wayne

[anchored]

Wayne... too bad I didn't know you last fall when I gave away about 20 rolls of film and threw away another 30 (35mm, 120 and 220 films). Also too bad I didn't think about offering it to local schools. But as I rarely use anything but large format over that past several years, figured the stock piles needed to be reduced anyways.

The Zone VI tripod was previously owned by Bob M, not I. However, you're the one who broke my heart when Eugene sold you that camera... I had a strong desire for it but unfortunately not the cash to back up my lust.

Still wet here this morning (at least just a drizzle now).

Glenn

[venchka]

No worries Glenn. Maybe we'll do a deal for the Zone VI one of these days.

[Jim Ewins]

Use it for a 2nd or 3rd exposure. You'll have the info with your 1st processing.

[morlinghaus]

just arrived in bogota. thanks for all the info. some of the film is fuji npl and kodak portra tungsten in 8x10 which is irreplaceable. the assignment is a book project about colombia with little advances so film costs are a huge issue. i will do the back-up exposures with the expired film and the main shot with 160nc. and i will report back.
greetings from south america,
christoph

www.morlinghaus.com

[Skip Roessel]

My 5x7 Ektachrome EPY was fine five years out of date... it went into a freezer a year before it expired and I saw no difference. This film is finicky, but it's also quite contrasty, so a little fog would probably not hurt it. My freezer runs about +5 F.

I don't think a 37-degree fridge is cold enough for serious film hoarding, tho. Maybe paper...

Skip Roessel

"If a thing is worth doing, it's worth doing badly."

[Ben Syverson]

the assignment is a book project about colombia with little advances so film costs are a huge issue.
Wow, sounds really cool. Please keep us updated!

[Stephen Willard]

Has anyone ever done real testing to see what happens with expired color negative film?

I am in the process of ordering around 100 boxes of Portra VC 160 8x10 film as a first step toward a lifetime supply of film. As long as the film is available, I intend to replenish my stock as I use it. The film will be stored sealed in original packaging, wrapped in lead foil, and frozen.

This past spring I have created a benchmark 14 stop characteristic curve and a calibrated ISO speed using Kodak one batch C41 chemistry, fresh film, and my color head and color meter to ensure a repeatable light source. I intend to compare this curve and ISO speed with future curves as time marches on and as chemistry may change. Each year I will use one box from my stock to construct a curve and ISO speed and compare it against the benchmark curve and ISO speed. This will allow me to monitor how well the film ages or the ramifications of having to mix my own C41 from scratch. Right now as we speak Photographers Formulary is finalizing its own C41 kit.

My expectation is as gamma radiation starts to fog the film, then my ISO speed will start to slow down because you have to subtract fbf (film base + fog) from the overall density at Zone I placement to determine minimum densities and the corresponding ISO speed. As the fog builds up I will probably have to increase exposure to ensure a minimum density for the red layer of 0.15 density units.

Color shifts will not occur provided the three layers of RGB run parallel to one another. If the parallel relationship no longer holds, then color shifts will occur. I am not sure what will happen to the slope of the curves which is a measure of contrast as time progresses or I change chemistry.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

[Robert Fisher]

Stephen, you are an amazing guy!

[Stephen Willard]

Stephen, you are an amazing guy!

Thank you Robert.

I do not believe that any body has done this kind of testing before the film is exposed. I do know tests have been done after the film has been exposed and processed in an attempt to measure its archival characteristics. The biggest issue for unexposed film is fogging caused gamma radiation. My hope is that a slower film such as 160 and rapping the film in lead foil will slow the effects of gamma radiation.

I do intend to publish my results on this website and on my own personal website as each year passes along with any corrective measures I take to make sure the film matches the initial characteristic curve and minimum densities at a Zone I placement above fbf.