Which 8x10 to go waste landing, (arca vs sinar )

[Dan Dubowitz]

I shoot difficult to acceess wastelands. Until recently with a hasselblad and 40mm lens. I have started producing large exhibition prints, 1.6m and up, my 6cmx6cm trannies struggle.
Ive used a technica v for the last year and it doesnt cut the mustard for me, I am now going to move on to a 10x8
My kit gets a hammering, and I need a robust camera, modular system for replacements, and tight movements strong fine movement (mostly vertical) that I can work in the dark (geared ideally)
I work exclusively at wide angle and rarely if ever extend the bellows out, I will stick with a wide bellows bag

I have narrowed it down to an arca swiss 8x10. However there's no well priced arca 10x8 coming up at the moment, but plenty of sinar f1. So Iam wondering if there is much in it. (please offer me an arca swiss 10x8 if you have one going spare)

Some camera questions:
It seems the 8x10 arcas are lighter and pack smaller than a sinar f1 or f2. True?

It would also be helpful to know if I can pack both/either of the arca or sinar cameras away with with the lens in for fast set up?

When a step down viewing back is described as a 9x12 back in europe, is this a 4x5 back "'Mattscheibenreduzierung (Platte) auf 9x12 cm siehe Foto'?"
If I get a 4x5 f1 sinar, or any of the earlier 4x5 arca, which are coming up often and afordably, can i use the same rail for the 8x10 front and backs?

Is there much difference in brightness in the arca and sinar screens, i currently use a beattie screen as I needed the extra brightness

your answers or thoughts would be much appreciated
many thanks
dam

[memorris]

One reason Arca cameras are not found that often is when you buy one you do not let go of it easily. I shoot Arca 4X5 and 8X10 and after shooting with several people who shoot different brands, I have no desire to try anything else.

I carry my Arca 4X5 Field in a backpack to get to remote areas and you can get the size prints you are looking for from a 4X5 with the right lens.

When I was shooting smaller formats I shot almost exclusively wide angle. With large format I find myself reaching for the 210mm most of the time. When I go wide it is a 115mm.

[Steve Hamley]

If your gear takes a beating I'd do Sinar in an instant - used parts are plentiful and relatively cheap.

Cheers, Steve

[Frank Petronio]

You might also consider the older 8x10 Sinar Norma, which is more rugged and better made than the F-series. It also is relatively compact, but not as much so as the Arca. Still, the Norma can be found for only slightly more than the F-series, there is usually 1 or 2 8x10 Normas per month on eBay, wheras an 8x10 Arca is rare and expensive -- you might only see one on eBay all year, if that. And finding parts like bag bellows and longer bellows almost forces you pay full price. Sinar accessories are relatively plentiful and less expensive.

I think a Sinar Norma and a Arca-Swiss F-line are about the same build quality, only different, the Sinar has more old-world machining and character while the Arca is cold and crisp computer driven machining. If you want gearing though, you'll want the Arca-Swiss Orbix system, but you'll pay quite a premium for such a set-up.

If your budget is tight, the Norma is the best bang for the buck. Watch the prices go up a couple of hundred now ;-)

[jeroldharter]

Arca is as good as it gets. You want an 8x10 F-Line Metric (which has geared rise), perhaps with Micrometric Orbix (which has geared front tilt). I have this in 4x5 and I am still infatuated with simply using it.

I agree that you don't see many used because people keep them - there is no move up. However, availability is spotty and in sizes > 4x5 I hear of people waiting very long times to get the parts they want.

So from a cost and availability of miscellaneous parts viewpoint, Sinar probably wins. From an aesthetic, design, and purely functional standpoint, the Arca it at the top.

[Darryl Baird]

8x10 Sinar F cameras are currently selling for more than a P or C on the e*** auction site. There have been an amazing number of Norma models too.

example = P 8x10 - $710.00, 8x10 F1 (with case and 5 holders) - 1,525.00 with two hours to go.

A C would be a better compromise/bargain, but it'll add some weight. That puppy will fold/collapse pretty flat with a short rail (what you'd use with architecture).

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah if you don't mind the weight, the P is a steal these days, one went for $500 not too long ago. Back in the day they cost as much as a car.

[Armin Seeholzer]

I agree that you don't see many used because people keep them - there is no move up. However, availability is spotty and in sizes > 4x5 I hear of people waiting very long times to get the parts they want.


The main reason for much more Sinar Cameras on the market is, it was the most used one in Pro Studio's and most of them went digital now!
Arcas are very seldom in Pro Studio's!

Thats it, Armin

[Darryl Baird]

that F1 went for over $2000... whew, for a grand less they could have gotten in shape while hauling around a P :D


8x10 Sinar F cameras are currently selling for more than a P or C on the e*** auction site. There have been an amazing number of Norma models too.

example = P 8x10 - $710.00, 8x10 F1 (with case and 5 holders) - 1,525.00 with two hours to go.

A C would be a better compromise/bargain, but it'll add some weight. That puppy will fold/collapse pretty flat with a short rail (what you'd use with architecture).

[Robert Fisher]

Darryl, looks like folks have been drinking the "Arca Kool Aid".

[Bosaiya]

The Sinar will take a beating, so will you. Get the coveted "mule" option to go along with it.

You can keep the lens on the Sinar board for ease of access. Given the overall size and weight of the kit it won't be noticed.

Same rail for 4x5, 8x10, plus the various models in each size. The rails screw together at the ends to extend to whatever length you can afford. I've got eight feet on mine. Amazingly a $10 piece of dowel from the hardware store also works.

Some of the standards are more easily removed than others, at the expense of robustness. I don't have them in front of me and I've got a few different versions, but some have a wrap-around clamp that sort of quick-releases, others need to be slid all the way off the ends of the rails.

[Dan Dubowitz]

All
this has been very informative and helpful
It would be really useful to see a resource for sinar that showed the weights, closed sizes and rails so i could identify between and compare the c, p1, f1, norm
ive even seen norma f1 which confuses things further

I have only seen one arca 10x8 and it seems way over priced at $4000 (e****250382069027) what should i expect to pay for a well used arca 10x8 alone, and a 10x8 with reducing back and wide bellows,
and if anyone has one to sell, please contact me asap before i buy one of these sinars comming up, dan@civicworks.net

this sinar is coming up, but i havent identified what it is, and no wide bellows 190343723862
and this p, with reducing back and bellows, looks like it will still go for more, i need to find out how heavy and big it is .....

thanks to all, dan

[Bosaiya]

All
i need to find out how heavy and big it is .....


Imagine if you will a small appliance, say a toaster or a breadbox. Rather than aluminum this appliance is made out of solid steel plates riveted together. A large chain, something that would hold a reasonably sized boat anchor, perhaps, secures the appliance to a brace of cinder blocks. An imposing metal lock with razor blades for corners swings pendulously from the chain, threatening to ruin any and all dental-work in the region. A specially trained monkey, we'll call him "Bobo", sits atop the contraption, catering to your every photographic whim. You have but to ask and Bobo will get to work shifting and tilting, rising and falling, yeeing and yawing, all with the precision of a... well, of a specially trained monkey.

I think I can safely say without too much exaggeration that this pretty well describes the tripod mount/rail holder assembly of the Sinar system.

[John O'Connell]

. . . A large chain, something that would hold a reasonably sized boat anchor, perhaps, secures the appliance to a brace of cinder blocks. . . .

Inspired.

One thing that has always kept me from buying an 8x10 Sinar is the front rise problem. A great many of the F cameras out there do not have the front standard extension for rise, and therefore are not terribly useful to me. If you care about rise, that's an issue I'd look at closely.

[Bosaiya]

Inspired.

One thing that has always kept me from buying an 8x10 Sinar is the front rise problem. A great many of the F cameras out there do not have the front standard extension for rise, and therefore are not terribly useful to me. If you care about rise, that's an issue I'd look at closely.

Out of the box that's true, the front standard (same as on a 4x5) generally has to be raised to the maximum in order to get the 8x10 bellows to work correctly. I think that's a limitation of the modular system - one standard to rule them all. If you were at all handy you could use pegs to attach same-sized tubes to the bottom of the front standards rise/fall tubes to give yourself more height. A little inelegant, but serviceable.

I'm all about hacking the Sinars.

[Dan Dubowitz]

Inspired.

One thing that has always kept me from buying an 8x10 Sinar is the front rise problem. A great many of the F cameras out there do not have the front standard extension for rise, and therefore are not terribly useful to me. If you care about rise, that's an issue I'd look at closely.

John
I agree the last post is inspired, add in up a ladder with an underweight overextended tripod and some wind and we really are sailing
thanks for this
could you give me more detail on this, I do use a fair bit of front rise, I am often flapping around in front of a tall building with the bubble level, using the rise to get the top of a facade in shot.
Ive been limited how much rise i use so far by the current lenses, but there will be times when i want to push the limits on what rise I can get, are some of the arcar/sinar models going to limit me there, what should I look out for?

[BennehBoy]

The Sinar special standard bearers allow for front rise (but are harder to find), of course it's a moot point when you consider that you can simply tilt the rail upwards and then tilt both standards back to perpendicular (or apply whatever tilts) to achieve the same thing.

[Pete Roody]

All
this has been very informative and helpful
It would be really useful to see a resource for sinar that showed the weights, closed sizes and rails so i could identify between and compare the c, p1, f1, norm
ive even seen norma f1 which confuses things further

I have only seen one arca 10x8 and it seems way over priced at $4000 (e****250382069027) what should i expect to pay for a well used arca 10x8 alone, and a 10x8 with reducing back and wide bellows,
and if anyone has one to sell, please contact me asap before i buy one of these sinars comming up, dan@civicworks.net

this sinar is coming up, but i havent identified what it is, and no wide bellows 190343723862
and this p, with reducing back and bellows, looks like it will still go for more, i need to find out how heavy and big it is .....

thanks to all, dan

The following website has the "Sinar Code" brochure that describes the P2, C2 anf F2 cameras. These are the latest versions of the Sinar monorails. It gives component weights of components also:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/sinar/sinar.htm

The 8x10 F2 differs from an F1 with the front standard. The F2 has a robust, spring loaded front standard, with enough rise to do 8x10. The F1 front standard is the same front standard used on the F2 4x5/5x7 cameras. It does not have enough front rise for 8x10 imo. The F2 version is much harder to find.

The F2/C2/P2 have metered backs and are heavy.

$4000 is not too much for an Arca 8x10. No one gives away these cameras.

[Armin Seeholzer]

One thing that has always kept me from buying an 8x10 Sinar is the front rise problem. A great many of the F cameras out there do not have the front standard extension for rise, and therefore are not terribly useful to me. If you care about rise, that's an issue I'd look at closely.

No this is not a problem at all because you alway can make an indirect shift!

As Ben already said:of course it's a moot point when you consider that you can simply tilt the rail upwards and then tilt both standards back to perpendicular (or apply whatever tilts) to achieve the same thing.

The camera is even more stable with indirect shift and if I take the back on my P full down and the front full up I get about 2 cm of direct shift!

Cheers Armin

[Dan Dubowitz]

So to clarify with 10x8
With direct shift of front and back I can get a maximum of aprox 2cm or so and with some of the sinar models, p,c,f
with indirect shift more.

do the arca 10x8 and sinar norma 10x8 offer more shift?

has anyone come across a resource with specs for the differing earlier arca and sinar models?

[Frank Petronio]

With the Norma you can actually screw in height extension onto the standards (but you might have a hard time finding those pieces, they are precious). Basically with both brands of cameras (I believe) you want to get specific 8x10 model standards rather than 4x5 ones. Not only do they have a larger vertical movement, but the back standards are heavier duty to handle the stress of the 8x10 back (at least on the Sinars). I am 99% sure Arca makes a taller 8x10 front and a more rigid 8x10 back too.

Good luck finding specs on the Arca, the parent company is bizarre about doing basic things like that (no website, out of date literature), but you could start by looking at precisioncameraworks.com and maybe asking the owner, Bob Watkins, for specifics. He's a good guy to know anyway, he will work on both Arca and Sinars, he is probably the best LF tech in the USA. He might also know of someone selling an Arca.

There is a LF member here, Emmanul Bigler, from France, who knows the Arca owners I think, he should chime in with details soon... Kerry Thalman is the other "expert" on Arca.

All said and done, if you can handle the relatively small extra weight and bulk, you should just get a Sinar Norma or P and use the $2500 to 3000 you save on other stuff. Unless you just "love" the Arca, which is a sick fetish!

[Dan Dubowitz]

Thanks frank, I'll try and track bob down, so if i get a norma or p, how would i know ive found specific 8x10 standards, is it the size of them?

[Frank Petronio]

I think it would be hard to describe them except in comparision with the smaller standards. Obviously the higher rise would be easy to see. If you follow eBay and look at the listings for the 8x10s you might be able to pick up the relationship.

FWIW, here is an older "$600" Arca 8x10 that was very light and compact, while still being quite rigid and capable. Just to keep it all in perspective....

[Drew Wiley]

The true F style 8x10 Sinar was never common. It had thick steel risers on the front
standard, versus aluminum ones simply borrowed from the 4x5 F. It would be easier
to find a P-style front standard, but with quite a weight and bulk penalty. One thing
I would strongly recommend if you choose a Sinar is the deluxe style rail clamp.
This is the one which wraps completely around the rail. Otherwise, in the field there
is a real risk of the camera flopping.

[Allen in Montreal]

Dan,

As someone who has shot with both cameras, just a few things to think about.

The Arca is faster to use, and packs smaller.
Both systems have great Format Changing kits. But the Arca's is better.
Sinar's is far more common the Arca's.
A reduction back for sinar can be bought any day of the week, not so for Arca.
If the Tech V doesn't cut the Mustard, ship it here to join in our ketchup! :)

The front standard on that camera is NOT the proper 8x10 standard. And to boot, it is a multi function standard designed mostly to act between the front and rear standard to connect two sets of bellows. they are prone to break on the bottom locking screw, it may never break, it may break in a month. be careful not to over tighten it!

I can not find a image of the correct 8x10 standard at the moment, but the legs are spring loaded to handle the weight of the larger glass. Write to Pete R, I sold him mine and he may be willing to send you a jpeg just for your own reference. They are very hard to come by. pete is correct when he says rise will be an issue if you use decent movements.

The camera you are looking at is know as a C. The front half of an F and read half of a P. Old style.

The recession is clearly ending, an F 8x10 sold on ebay this week of 2k plus. A year ago they were selling for 1k.

Sinar makes a good camera, so does Arca.
People love and hate both.

I loved my Arca, had it not been stolen, I would still be in love with it. :)

If money was no object, I would have the Arca again, but with kids, it is, so I have a Sinar. I like the camera very much too.
Sinar parts are readily available, expansion within the system is quick and affordable by comparison to AS. Lens boards are a dime a dozen for Sinar, not so for Arca.

That camera is at $800. not too dear, but it needs some add ons over time.
If, at the end of the day, this rig sets you back 1500 once complete, you are still 625 sheets of HP 5 ahead of the game over the Arca Swiss.

Given that you say your cameras live a very hard life and parts will need to be replaced along the way, if I may throw you a curve, a few Cambo SCX and NX have sold recently for mid $400. range. They are built like a tank and spare parts are plentiful.
That may be a better buy dollar for dollar over this camera.
They don't fold down like an Arca, well, they don't do anything like an Arca, but a cambo is less than the sales tax on an Arca.
Just a thought, at least take a look before pulling the trigger. You only have 20 hours, but, it may be worth a glance. But many sellers call old style Cambos an NX when they are not even close, so be careful if you go that route.

[Pete Roody]

the attached photo shows the F2 8x10 front standard. the posts are thicker and longer than the F1 version. they are also spring loaded.

[John O'Connell]

The Sinar special standard bearers allow for front rise (but are harder to find), of course it's a moot point when you consider that you can simply tilt the rail upwards and then tilt both standards back to perpendicular (or apply whatever tilts) to achieve the same thing.

I agree that if you can live with indirect rise, the 4x5 front standard isn't much of an issue. If I could live with indirect rise, though, why would I want an 8x10 monorail?

And I don't know that the problem is solved by going to an Arca. When I was shopping for an 8x10, I could have bought a brand-new 8x10 F-line for less than $3000. But it also had limited front rise. Arca made an accessory to cure that problem, but I doubt very many exist.

While Arca has almost cetainly changed the specs on their 8x10 cameras by now, the direct rise issue on these modular monorails is my big reservation about them.

[Dan Dubowitz]

Can anyone tell me about this Arca 8x10 --see photos--that i am considering buying, see photos. I can see the 4x5 kit is incomplete, and i wont need the lens, what i would like to know is if this is a good robust model along the lines we have been discussing.
for roughly double I could buy a new series arca f 10x8.
If this model will give me a similar rise to the 5cm on the new f, and is as light, or possibly lighter? and is as robust? Than I'm sold. Thanks

[Sascha Welter]

My Arca 6x9 is of similar vintage. It's sturdy. No experience with the same in 8x10 though (and 6x9cm is obviously a lot lighter than 8x10).

That extra standard is probably meant to use as a compendium holder, together with the 4x5 bellows and something that holds those extra bellows to the lens standard. The extra rail was probably used as an extension. So in that sense it's a more completer 8x10, not an 8x10 with some 4x5 bits thrown in.

[Frank Petronio]

That's the one on eBay where the seller wants $3999. He's on crack. Last month a similar one sold for $800 (which was a steal). It'd be an OK deal at $1200 but paying 3x the going price is nuts.

That's the pre-F line model, meaning it's probably from the 1970s. They're fine cameras, although the later F-line has a better overall quality and design.

[Robert Hughes]

The high-priced eBay selling crackheads are all over the place, trying to sell stuff at prices way out of line with the real world. Good luck to them, I suppose, but really I hope they all go broke. :)

[BennehBoy]

There's a chap on german ebay trying to seel a p2 rear special standard bearer for 2.7K euro, insane.