RA-4/Wet Color...Is it worth trying for a newb?

[JosephBurke]

Some basic info........I have my 8x10 DeVere and had been processing my color and b&w film for a few years.....but only printing B&W........not much darkroom action in a long time....a "D" (you know!) and moving and having my enlarger in storage for a few years until recently.....OK...it's back up and ready to go...... I have a Nikon LS 8000 for medium format (but I still like a traditional B&W print) but nothing worth much mention (Epson 2450 for 4x5) to scan LF film and a Canon Pixma Pro 9000 to print......my question: Is it worthwhile to try to print traditionally my Color negs?.....especially my 4x5 and 8x10 ..........not to compare the ability to enhance or alter digitally but rather a print of say the max of my inkjet printer versus the equivalent size printed traditionally......
......Is RA-4 still a worthwhile process to learn?........I have chemicals and paper...all out of date but likely very usable .......
...or should I just nix the whole idea and opt for a current flatbed scanner that is still only consumer grade......keep in mind I want my LF print to look like LF prints..If I wanted less I wouldn't bother with LF...not to mention camera movements.....

[bob carnie]

Joseph

The new papers are extremely fast and biased for led and laser exposure, but with that said there is nothing wrong in setting up to print RA4 . I assume you would be using a rotary processor? These papers do work under an enlarger but much faster than let's say 15 years ago
If you are talking trays then I cannot comment as I have never done colour in Trays and I would imagine doable but quite difficult.
I print RA4 and Inkjet, they both have their strongpoints and generally I am inclined to make RA4 prints over inkjet. *my personal choice*
The difference you will find with a enlarger print and one done digitally is small but there would be a sharper image from the direct negative, but one could argue the pure bliss of being able to edit in PS to achieve results not possible with an enlarger print.
I switched to PS laser RA4 about three years ago and am very happy , but I do not think there is anything wrong with the results attained with an enlarger print.

go for it.

[Nick_3536]

In some ways I've found colour easier then B&W

[Drew Wiley]

RA4 is really quite easy if you have a simple processing drum and a colorhead. I personally use Kodak chemistry one-shot (mixed fresh for each print or daily session)and Fuji Crystal Archive paper. The paper keeps fairly well, the chemistry doesn't, so
make sure you are buying it fresh. Simple test strips are suitable for determining exp
and color balance. It's important to keep the temperature of your chemicals, especially
the developer, rather precise. Something like a Jobo tempering box works well. I'm
allergic to RA4, so load the exposed print in the darkroom, but mix the chemicals and
do the actual processing outdoors, with the processor base mounted on a portable
Rubbermaid cart. If indoors, it's important to use good ventilation just as in any other
darkroom chemistry application. The actual color gamut you come up with will depend
to a considerabe degree upon your specific negative film. Some films are obviously
more saturated than others.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

RA4 is pretty straightforward once you dial it in for a particular emulsion and get a good baseline print.

What changes with color is that as the enlarger bulb ages (or when you blow it out and have to replace it), the baseline filtration shifts, too. As it does for each particular emulsion. I found that Kodak paper was easy to get color balance spot on with Kodak films, not so easy with Fuji because of the "4th Layer" magenta cross. I'd expect that it's easier to get Fuji reversal papers to work with Kodak neg films than vice versa (though I always stuck with Kodak papers when I was doing RA4). But at least the paper and chemistry are cheap compared to Ilfochrome or digital media.

As Drew says RA4 paper doesn't color shift at nearly the same rapid rate (outdated Ilfochrome paper can be worse than useless, with red shifts that can't be dialed out).

[Drew Wiley]

I personally get around some of the idiosyncrasies of printing color negs by using a
sharp-cutting additive light source which largely replicates the manner in which
digital printers work with the newest Fuji papers. But I'm also printing only my own
work, therefore shots which have been tailored for the print meda itself. Generally
Portra 160VC 8x10's. The color rivals anything digital and the detail is superior, but
if you need a contrast or saturation boost, well, too bad. Pro and cons. It isn't
Photoshop and you can't use trannies as a starting point (for that kind of thing I print
mainly Ciba). But it is a far more cost effective means of making a big print than
anything digital I'm aware of. No need for a scan or the expense and repair issues
of a scanner. My colorhead has internal feedback so is extremely repeatable from
print to print or even year to year. Just need to recalibrate for new batches of paper.
But engineering a colorhead like this was a distinct chore. But there's no need of
something this sophisticated for ordinary color neg printing, especially for portrait
work. Most modern colorheads will work well.

[PViapiano]

For those of you who process RA4 in drums, how do you deal with rinsing and drying the drums btw every print? Multiple drums...or?

Has anyone used trays?

[al olson]

For those of you who process RA4 in drums, how do you deal with rinsing and drying the drums btw every print? Multiple drums...or?

Has anyone used trays?

I have a Jobo CPP-2 and use drums to process my 16x20s, both b&w as will as RA-4. I have two drums and I rinse each after processing, disassemble the parts, and then wipe them down with a paper towel. By the time I have finished processing with the other drum the first drum is usually air dried enough so that there will be no water spots.

I run my smaller color test prints through a DoMac processor. Although it will take 16" wide paper, I find that by the time the end of the 20" length pops out of the developer trough, the developer on that end of the paper is not fresh enough for full development on the last 1 1/2" of the print. It does OK on the smaller papers, though. I use Nova vertical tanks for processing my b&w test prints up to 11x14.

[bob carnie]

I never used trays but...

The very first colour prints I made were on a Kodak K16 drum processor.
Very cool unit ... basicaly a 20 inch waterbath tray at working temp, with a net drooped inside,,, the chems were pre mixed and sitting in a water bath at temp as well, ,, you would expose your paper, then place the print emulsion up inside the tray on the net to pre soak,,, a rotating drum that was connected to the waterbath running through the drum to keep the metal at temp... the surface of the drum was very smooth and as it rotated you would lift the net with your exposed paper and place on the drum which was rotating now with the paper emulsion touching the drum.... start the timer and in a tray connected to the rotating drum you would put in the dev.... when time was up just flick the tray and the dev would dump,,, then bleach,,, then fix,,, lights on ,, then wash... Prints had to be dried in a heated dryer.

I loved this machine and it really was a workhorse through my school years.
There also was a basket system **calumet** that used nitrogen burst system which basically was much like a dip and dunk system that you moved the prints between the baths by hand.. I hated this machine because the room really f....ing stunk of chemicals and back then we did not wear gloves and the school ventilation was crap.
But this system also was a workhorse and easy to use.

This site LFPF is full of gear freaks/geeks who could redesign the K16 and for a small home darkroom would be a fantastic piece of equipment to make colour prints. The enlarger and processing system fit in a small closet size room and worked wonderful for thousands of students going through photoschool, before they bought the Kodak roller transport.

Re drums, we wipe down the drums and put in a heated dryer for 10 min and ready to go ..



For those of you who process RA4 in drums, how do you deal with rinsing and drying the drums btw every print? Multiple drums...or?

Has anyone used trays?

[Nick_3536]

I use multiple drums. Washing in the drum isn't an issue. It's making sure the damn thing is 100% dry.

[Nick_3536]

I use multiple drums. Washing in the drum isn't an issue. It's making sure the damn thing is 100% dry.

For drying paper towels.

[Joe Smigiel]

Kodak just discontinued the optical RA-4 paper (Supra Endura IIRC). Apparently the replacement is meant for digital printers and when color-balanced for skin tones with an optical system, neutrals shift cyan. Also, RA-4 papers don't seem to be available in sheet sizes any longer, only rolls. Not good news for home color darkrooms.

[Greg Blank]

Can you provide a link of authentication for that<Please>. There will be a lot of schools and universities P.O'd because of that one.


Kodak just discontinued the optical RA-4 paper (Supra Endura IIRC). Apparently the replacement is meant for digital printers and when color-balanced for skin tones with an optical system, neutrals shift cyan. Also, RA-4 papers don't seem to be available in sheet sizes any longer, only rolls. Not good news for home color darkrooms.

[dsphotog]

Uhh, I just checked....BH Photo now only lists a few Kodak color papers.

[Joe Smigiel]

Can you provide a link of authentication for that<Please>. There will be a lot of schools and universities P.O'd because of that one.

Here ya go:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/e4021/e4021.pdf

And this is from Technical Publication E-4042 on the replacement:


Color Management
SUPRA ENDURA VC Digital Paper is optimized for printing
in both internal and external color-managed, short
exposure, digital workflows. Many digital printers have
color-management capability built into their software.
SUPRA ENDURA VC Digital Paper is fully compatible with
these printers.
Optical Printing
This paper can be printed optically. The image will be high
in contrast and, if balanced on flesh tones, the neutrals will
appear cyan.

[Drew Wiley]

Fuji C and P papers print just fine optically and are readily available in sheets.

[andy]

The tech publication says that only the rolls of Supra Endura will be discontinued and that they will continue to make sheets.

as far as drying the tubes, careful paper towel use is the best technique I've found.

[Joe Smigiel]

The tech publication says that only the rolls of Supra Endura will be discontinued and that they will continue to make sheets.


That's not how I read it. The sheet talks about Portra Endura as if it is still being made, yet the discontinuance notice at the top states "KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA ENDURA Paper was discontinued in late 2006." So, Kodak appears to have just added a recent notice to the text of an older technical data sheet.

That discontinuance notice does not differentiate between Supra Endura in rolls or sheets. Rather, it states:



Product Discontinuance
KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper will be
discontinued by year end 2009 or when stock is depleted.


Here's the entire discontinuance notice and opening four paragraphs from the sheet:



Product Discontinuance
KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper will be
discontinued by year end 2009 or when stock is depleted. KODAK
PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA VC Digital Paper is the
alternative replacement.

KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA ENDURA Paper and
KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper are fast,
resin-coated multilayer papers for making color prints
from color negatives or internegatives. They can be
exposed both digitally and optically. They are designed for
all types of equipment from digital (CRT, LED, and laser)
exposing devices to optical enlargers and automatic
printers.

KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA ENDURA Paper is a
low contrast paper, making it an ideal choice for portrait,
studio, and wedding photography, as well as location
portraiture. KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA
Paper features slightly higher contrast and color
saturation, making it an excellent choice for portrait,
candid, event, high-key, and commercial applications.

The new papers can easily be distinguished from
KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA III and SUPRA III Papers
by their unique watermark on the back. PORTRA ENDURA
Paper has a single grey dot under PAPER, whereas
PORTRA III has two dots separating PAPER, PAPIER, and
PAPEL. Likewise, SUPRA ENDURA Paper has a single grey
dot under PAPER, whereas SUPRA III has two dots
separating PAPER, PAPIER, and PAPEL.

Both are available in sheets and rolls in E (fine lustre), F
(glossy), and N (matt) surfaces. Use KODAK
EKTACOLOR Chemicals for Process RA-4 to process
these papers.

Later in the sheet reference is made to available sizes:



SIZES AVAILABLE
KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA ENDURA Paper and
KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper are
available in a variety of roll and sheet sizes...

I don't see any reference "that only the rolls of Supra Endura will be discontinued and that they will continue to make sheets." There is no reference to what they will continue to make. There is only a specific reference to what is discontinued and to what is the suggested replacement.

The Technical Data Sheet (E-4042) on the replacement paper does not indicate sheet sizes are available. Here's the availability statement from that document:


SUPRA ENDURA VC Digital Paper is available in E
(fine-grained, lustre), F (glossy), N (smooth matt), and Y
(silk) surfaces in roll formats. Surfaces, formats, and
catalog numbers may differ from country to country.


It does appear Fuji papers are still currently available in sheets and in stock at certain vendors like Calumet and B&H.

Joe

[SamReeves]

Off to Fuji then.

The other shoe to drop will probably be Portra film in sheet film sizes. Who needs C-41 anyome? :o

[Ben Syverson]

Fuji Crystal Archive was always my favorite... I found Kodak accentuated yellows and oranges in a weird way.

[andy]

"KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper in roll formats
will be discontinued by year end 2009"

[Joe Smigiel]

"KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper in roll formats
will be discontinued by year end 2009"

Are we reading the same publication? Where does it say that? Page? Section?

[uhner]

Are we reading the same publication? Where does it say that? Page? Section?

On the top left on the first page of Kodak publication E-4021, under the headline Product Discontinuance, I can read the following:

KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper in roll formats
will be discontinued by year end 2009 or when stock is depleted.
Sheets continue to be available. KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA
ENDURA VC Digital Paper is the alternative replacement. KODAK
PROFESSIONAL PORTRA ENDURA Paper was discontinued in late
2006.

[Joe Smigiel]

On the top left on the first page of Kodak publication E-4021, under the headline Product Discontinuance, I can read the following:

KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper in roll formats
will be discontinued by year end 2009 or when stock is depleted.
Sheets continue to be available. KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA
ENDURA VC Digital Paper is the alternative replacement. KODAK
PROFESSIONAL PORTRA ENDURA Paper was discontinued in late
2006.

Hmmm. My version reads differently. What's the date on yours? Mine's September 2009. Here's a cropped screensnap:

[Joe Smigiel]

Looks like the link I posted earlier led to a revised data sheet that did not have the correct date. I now have downloaded two versions of E-4021 both dated September, 2009.

I just got off the phone with a Kodak Pro rep and the Supra Endura paper is only being discontinued in roll formats. Sheet sizes will continue to be made according to the rep.

Sorry for the confusion.

Joe