Oscar Zwierzina Plasticca - Who has more technical data?

[Steven Tribe]

The last thread about the Plasticca was mostly about offers on ebay so this is a new one! I am seeking more information about coverage or the various sizes, which because of the nature of the wanted effect, may be a question of artistic taste/subject rather than a technical given. Cameraeccentric´s short "sales" brochure in English gives very little technical information but presnts the coverage for the largest size 600mm (24") as 10x12, whilst the next sizes down are supposed to cover full plate size only. In the few professional auction house descriptions I have found, the coverage is given as much more - up to 30x40cm for the next largest size. Galli's and Gandolfi's photos seem to suggest that the Cameraeccentric coverages are wrong? Comments and experiences would be helpful.
It would also be nice if someone had an idea when Oscar was busy in Dresden making these things? Is it just post WW1? And does anyone have a notion of whether there is a more substantial description (French and German are quite OK) available anywhere?

[Emil Schildt]

hi Steven.
I can't help you with the scientific facts of these lenses, but I can tell you my experience with my Plasticca.

I have been told, these lenses was made in the early 30ties as a "cheap" version of the popular soft focus lenses...
whether this is true... who knows, but to me it makes sense.

Mine is a 280mm (as I remember), and I have tried it on 18x24 as well as on 13x18.
While it seems to fit the large negative, I dont recommend to use it for this..
it will blur/distort beyond interesting..

I find 13x18 a good negative size for it, but even here, the borders are really blurred!
Maybe half plate would be the "optimal" size. Or even 4x5.

you can take a look at my images.

here is an image on 4x5":
http://www.emilschildt.com/OLD%20LENSES%20plasticca%20sudek.htm

here on 13x18:
http://www.emilschildt.com/OLD%20LENSES%20plasticca%20kris05.htm

and 18x24:
http://www.emilschildt.com/OLD%20LENSES%20plasticca%20kris03.htm

on the last image, you can see, that the borders aren't dark, so it canbe used in this size.
depending on the background I think. this is a calm background, but if I had made this image outside, I think the background would have turned up so messy, it would ruin the negative...

hope this makes sense.
I'd like to get some more infor on the lenses too.....

regards
emil

[Emil Schildt]

By the way.
I also have an Oskar Simon "Kronarette" (and a friend of mine has the Oskar Simon "Kronar"..)
Similar to the Plasticca (not quite so wild), but I'd love some info on these too....

[Steven Tribe]

I can help a little with info on the kronarette which was Simon's shutter fitted version of the Kronar. Look in VM! As they are mentioned in the Frerk book from 1926 they must be from before this date. Probably not a coincidence that that the 2 Oskars were based in Dresden.
Nice to see some pictures with focal length and format size given! Yours must be the 12" version - which as you say - looks right for half-plate. And this matches with the data given in the short guide produced by B&J. Which says:
8"- 1/4 plate, 12" -1/2 plate, 14" - 1/2 plate, 16" full plate, 18" full plate, 24" 10x12".

About the dates, I can't help thinking that it must have been earlier than the 30's as even niche products had a bad time from the late 20's. And they still have the brass finish which became old fashioned at the start of the century.

[Emil Schildt]

I can help a little with info on the kronarette which was Simon's shutter fitted version of the Kronar. Look in VM! As they are mentioned in the Frerk book from 1926 they must be from before this date. Probably not a coincidence that that the 2 Oskars were based in Dresden.
Nice to see some pictures with focal length and format size given! Yours must be the 12" version - which as you say - looks right for half-plate. And this matches with the data given in the short guide produced by B&J. Which says:
8"- 1/4 plate, 12" -1/2 plate, 14" - 1/2 plate, 16" full plate, 18" full plate, 24" 10x12".

About the dates, I can't help thinking that it must have been earlier than the 30's as even niche products had a bad time from the late 20's. And they still have the brass finish which became old fashioned at the start of the century.

thanks Steven.
About the period. You are proberly right. I have just been through some auction descriptions about these lenses, and the all state the twenties... early twenties maybe?
maybe that's closer.

[Emil Schildt]

I can help a little with info on the kronarette which was Simon's shutter fitted version of the Kronar. Look in VM! .

about this.
The VM mentiones the Kronarette as a 25cm - mine is a 300mm...
And the Kronar is a much bigger lens (makes sense as it is a 3.8) in a barrel.
The Kronar has the yellow filter as the Plasticca - the Kronarette doesn't have the filter.

I've (again, and maybe faulty) been told that the kronarette proberly was a "cheap" version of the Kronarette..
(I don't know whether that makes sense, as the finish of the Kronarette and the shutter in which it is fitted, looks much more "finished", as the Kronar I have seen...)

I must try and borrow the Kronar from my friend, so I can try it and look for differences/simmilarities...)

[CCHarrison]

The March 1921 Photo Minature Magazine had the following text ( attached )
Dan

[Steven Tribe]

Now this information, short though it is, is very useful! The early date (pre-1921)doesn't surprise me - nor does the Scandinavian connection. All of the auction house listings in Europe during the last 10 years were either in Germany or Sweden. My own 24" also comes from Sweden. Many thanks! I suppose there is additional information lurking in Frerk's German Annual yearbooks from the 20's.

[Steven Tribe]

Whilst waiting for technical imput I thought I might post an image of the enormous "pill box" - almost 7 1/2 diameter - that my 600mm plasticca was sold in. I note that others were sold in mini casket type boxes. Whilst the images they take are the most important thing about lenses, they sometimes provide in their design and packaging an insight into the period in which they were made. I think it is a good example of late Central European Art Nouveau!



I think the serial number is very strange! Could Zwierzina have made over 20,000 of the Plasticca? Perhap the various sizes had different base starting numbers?

[csant]

an image of the enormous "pill box" - almost 7 1/2 diameter

[…]

I think it is a good example of late Central European Art Nouveau!

Indeed, even the box is very beautiful, and elegant!

[Steven Tribe]

I forgot to mention that the rear of the pill box is stamped with the agents name for Sweden - a clue perhaps. It was Arto Aktiebogalet (Arto & Co). They were the equivalent of B&J in the USA and produced a very large annual comprehensive list of their photographic offerings. Perhaps some of our Swedish members have some of these old catalogues (20´s and 30's)? I have just bought/ordered the annual for 1934 but the Plasticca may have gone off the market before then.

[Steven Tribe]

600mm Plasticca alongside a sinar board mounted with a 36cm Heliar.

[Emil Schildt]

600mm Plasticca alongside a sinar board mounted with a 36cm Heliar.

WOW - that's a big one...
have you ever used it? could be interesting to see some images done with it...

[Steven Tribe]

Sorry Emil - You will have to wait until I've got an extension+ rail for the cambo! It will just fit on a sinar board with a bit of superstructure built on the front so I might just try that first as I can borrow my son's sinar copal shutter - I hope. Thinking a lot about where to try it ( without garden nymphs!). I just cleaned it today - it is in super optical condition.

[Emil Schildt]

Sorry Emil - You will have to wait until I've got an extension+ rail for the cambo! It will just fit on a sinar board with a bit of superstructure built on the front so I might just try that first as I can borrow my son's sinar copal shutter - I hope. Thinking a lot about where to try it ( without garden nymphs!). I just cleaned it today - it is in super optical condition.

come visit!
You can use my garden - with nymphs and all...:p

I have a Gandolfi 30x40 and a 40x50cm camera that might accept the monster.

And I have several extra bellows for my sinar...

If there is a will - there is a way!

If you're from Dk, then it might actually be possible to meet some day - who knows.

[Steven Tribe]

My order for an Arto Aktiebolaget (correct spelling this time) 1934 Catalogue - which might have more details about the Plasticca - seems to produced panic searching at the Swedish establishment! They have just moved and apologise profusely. I have visions of boxes being emptied in dark attics and checking titles with pocket torches. I'll post the data when it arrives - if there is any!

[Steven Tribe]

The Aktiebolaget Arto 1934 Catalogue has arrived and unfortunately the Plasticca had already disappeared from the Soft/Plastic offerings. Instead there were the:

Universal Heliar at almost the same price as the ordinary Heliar!
Nicola Perscheid (which also used a yellow filter).
Cooke series II D & E

So I'm on the lookout for a 20's catalogue or Frerk's middle 20's books.

[Steven Tribe]

Our australian "e**y buddy" has a listing of a 400mm at the moment. Note that he has a reference to the impressive photos of Emil (alias Gandolfi). The condition looks OK and it is complete. Serial number is 16,636.

[seven]

what, again ?!?

[Emil Schildt]

Our australian "e**y buddy" has a listing of a 400mm at the moment. Note that he has a reference to the impressive photos of Emil (alias Gandolfi). The condition looks OK and it is complete. Serial number is 16,636.

can't find it... a link maybe?

He is slow... I have more than one time written him, saying that I don't like my images been used as a reference by him without asking...

annoying.

(I'd love a 400mm palsticca though....:))

[Jim Galli]

Here is the 18" Plasticca used on 8X10 earlier this year in rural Oregon.


http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/Oregon2009/FK14FrenchGlenHotel18PlasticcaS.jpg
frenchglen hotel

[Steven Tribe]

Emil - I'm not surprised you can't find it - title is "OSCAR Pictorial Soft focus Portrait lens 8x10 11x14". Item no. is 250539250530. Perhaps you had better buy it - so he stops using your link. Cheaper than legal action. My extra cambo bellows has arrived so I, at long last, might be able to try the 24" this weekend. Also because my much better half is off to Berlin for the weekend +.

[Steven Tribe]

Here is a new small contribution to the "Plasticca" literature. Emil was right about it being a "low cost" pictorial objective. I have found it for sale in a Swedish "Arto" catalogue from 1922. The short description doesn't say very much but it provides an idea of the sizes on offer in the 20's and covering abilities. You can judge the prices by comparing with the Goerz Dogmar prices lower on the page! Times have changed a little.

[Steven Tribe]

I have no real news about the history of Plasticca and the elusive Oscar Zwierzina.
BUT, I have come to the conclusion that the later series, which didn't have a separate yellow filter, had a rather, surprising (to me anyway) source of the yellow tint. I had always thought that the rear lens of the achromat was made with coloured glass. Looking at my own rear cell (with no separation) and a recented sold plasticca, I think I can see that the pigment is in the balsam layer. This would have an cheap solution for Zwierzina. It also means that quality control would have difficult/impossible as the coloured balsam must have been made up in batches. Next time I do a rebalsaming, I'll try and reproduce the colour. I suppose this is quite close to the old way of making lens filters?

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

Found some hires images of that lens in f4 12" (350mm for us metrics) version:
http://www.foto-hobby.com.pl/photo/2010/1708/plastica_01.JPG
http://www.foto-hobby.com.pl/photo/2010/1708/plastica_02.JPG
http://www.foto-hobby.com.pl/photo/2010/1708/plastica_03.JPG

[Steven Tribe]

Is this one with an additional yellow filter? Or has the balsam lost the yellow tint through time. I have a feeling that the plasticca is linked to the Rodenstock Pantagonal design (1 + 2) which had limited sharpness and used a yellow/green filter as standard.

[Peter K]

I suppose this is quite close to the old way of making lens filters?
Filters where either made from stained glass - expensive - or from solutions of dyes in gelatine casted on glassplates - cheap.

Both, massive glass filters and gelatine filters where equipped with cover glasses glued with canada balsam.

Yellow filters where standard with orthochromatic taking material to supress the extensive sensitivity for the short waves. Specially if the lens is used at daylight or with magnesium flashlight, also carbon-arc-light. Today films like the T-Max have a red screen dye so one needs no filter anymore.

Peter

[Steven Tribe]

So Zwierzine would have known the technology of using coloured balsam to assemble his rear achromat.

[Peter K]

So Zwierzine would have known the technology of using coloured balsam to assemble his rear achromat.
That's easy, the tar-dyes like "Filtergelb" from factories like Hoechst are relativ heat-resistant so one can mix a certain amount with balsam to get the needed yellow.

Peter

[wang888]

By the way.
I also have an Oskar Simon "Kronarette" (and a friend of mine has the Oskar Simon "Kronar"..)
Similar to the Plasticca (not quite so wild), but I'd love some info on these too

[Steven Tribe]

There is some data here on a previous thread - Gandolfi is the man here.
There is indication that Oscar Zwierzine left Germany in a hurry in the 30's (like quite a few others with a good idea of what was to come!) and that his
"friend" and fellow lens makers Oscar Simon took over the production rights to the design/concept.