Anybody try a Perma-Stable Print from Laserlight???

[Rust Never Sleeps]

So far I have been doing the Tango scan/Chromira print thing for my prints on Fuji Gloss paper. I am very happy with the results but like some of the other options out there now. The ones that have really caught my eye are the Perma Stable Print (http://www.laserlightprintmaker.com/photoprints.php#permastable) and Perma Stable Chrome Print (http://www.laserlightprintmaker.com/chromeprint.php) at Laserlight.

Anybody try these prints?? I can't find much feedback on them but Bill Nordstrom likes them and thinks they are above the Chromira Prints and says the Chrome Prints are the best glossy prints he has made so far and I know many value his opinion a lot here.

The Chrome prints look very nice on paper as the linked page states, Supergloss Fuji is nice but is a pain in The A** to handle so the Chrome print looks appealing for a high gloss look and the floating frame option looks very nice. Also no need for soul sucking glass or expensive museum glass. Any thoughts?? Thanks

[bob carnie]

Looks like a very special name on a commercial inkjet product.
The lamination process sounds interesting but not really buying the permanance issues.

1980's forward Cibachromes were dipped in a liquid coating machine and the images were then used in parks for out door signage.
Claims were made that these were very long lasting, but in reality just a very nice look and waterproof.

Laserlight and Mr Nordstrom were part of the Ultra Stable group if I remember correctly . Now that was a very interesting product.
I know of a couple of workers that are still using the basic principles of Ultra Stable and making beautiful prints.
Always wondered why Mr Nordstrom got out of that game.

[D. Bryant]

Always wondered why Mr Nordstrom got out of that game.

My research indicates that the process (as sold to customers) was too expensive for the main stream consumer/photographer. Also it was my impression it may have not been marketed very well.

Don Bryant

[Drew Wiley]

Mr Nordstrom has a long history of innovation. Ultrastable applied modern graphics
printing technology to 4-color carbon printing, but still required a lot of handwork. It
was succeeded by the Polaroid Permanent process (no relation to Polaroid instant films), and then by the Evercolor pigment process, which was sold to another party.
All these processes suffered from visual issues and lacked general appeal, and were
very expensive. But they were true pigment processes so had some legitimate claim to
permanence in the sense that no inkjet process does.

[bob carnie]

John Bentley , a photographer in Toronto and Todd Gangler Seattle are making the Evercolor prints and they are quite outstanding.

Mr Nordstrom has a long history of innovation. Ultrastable applied modern graphics
printing technology to 4-color carbon printing, but still required a lot of handwork. It
was succeeded by the Polaroid Permanent process (no relation to Polaroid instant films), and then by the Evercolor pigment process, which was sold to another party.
All these processes suffered from visual issues and lacked general appeal, and were
very expensive. But they were true pigment processes so had some legitimate claim to
permanence in the sense that no inkjet process does.

[Drew Wiley]

Bob - I doubt these are Evercolor prints, but carbon prints from fresh batches of
pigmented gelatin. Evercolor was based upon an Agfa proofing material made in very
large batches. The exposure method was halftone. You ended up with something which
looked like a poster but was quite expensive. I have some samples stored somewhere.
Sandy King, a member of this forum, has started another forum dedicated to carbon
printing, though the content is still seemingly cenetered around b&W. Carbon printing
is probably the oldest form of color printing, though there have been numerous modern
tweaks to it. To my knowledge, all the commercial versions of the process have gone
bust. There are technical, financial, and esthetic reasons for this failure.

[bob carnie]

Hi Drew

You are right they are carbon prints, Both Todd and John worked with Charles Bergger around 1998 and he passed on his recipe, both photographers are using image setting negatives and are making their pigmented tissues.
A really hard part of cmyk printing of carbon is the sensitizing of the tissue just before printing, this part throws a whole can of whoppas at you.
Mr Bergger and now Todd and John have the ability to pre sensitize the tissue which when printing makes it very easy.**funny how one can call it easy***
I worked with the Ultra Stable tissues in 93/94 and thought it was a winning process, I was not in a financial position to incorporate it into my lab offerings.. Basically scans, image setting negs, had to be farmed out at great cost and the support from the Ultra Stable group was sketchy.
Today I have the ability to hi rez scan and make my own separations in house, I spent some time with Sandy this summer and I am slowly going down this road. Being able to presensitize the tissues would be a huge motivator for me but both Todd and John will not devulge the technique at Mr Bergers request which is understandable.
I now am aiming directly at tri colour gum with multiple k masks to meet my needs.
Sandy has been a big help and inspiration to me with Carbon and is my go to guy for information.
I also am aware that Richard Sullivan and some workers around him have a great interest in making sensitzed tissues and I am following their progress with crossed fingers.
My goal is to be able to print permanent colour prints for select clients and of course for my wife and my collection of images.


Bob - I doubt these are Evercolor prints, but carbon prints from fresh batches of
pigmented gelatin. Evercolor was based upon an Agfa proofing material made in very
large batches. The exposure method was halftone. You ended up with something which
looked like a poster but was quite expensive. I have some samples stored somewhere.
Sandy King, a member of this forum, has started another forum dedicated to carbon
printing, though the content is still seemingly cenetered around b&W. Carbon printing
is probably the oldest form of color printing, though there have been numerous modern
tweaks to it. To my knowledge, all the commercial versions of the process have gone
bust. There are technical, financial, and esthetic reasons for this failure.

[Drew Wiley]

Bob - wish I had time for color carbon, but I'll be lucky if I find time for dye transfer
this winter. I suspect that some of the difficulties in the commercial application of this process were due to contaminants in the pigments which caused ongoing cross-linking of the gelatin within the bulk films, so often led to blisters or other forms of
failure in the final product. The older halftone look wasn't so acceptable either. Yet
I hope this kind of printmaking will continue to evolve with new ideas. I think many
improvements could be made.

[Richard M. Coda]

These have nothing to do with carbon prints. I have one I made with Ataraxia 7 or 8 years ago. They are beautiful.

These, however, are on fused to aluminum somehow. I saw an ad for them somewhere else (not Laserlight) and ordered samples. The quality is very poor. Seems more like a gimmick than anything else. I would not be proud to display one of my images with this process.

[Drew Wiley]

Richard - these are obviously some kind of tweak on thermal transfer printing. The
point being made was simply that Mr. Nordstrom has been quite instrumental in
modernizing color carbon printing, and that he deserves credit for that. He seems to
have quite an itch to experiment all over the technological map, and these Perma
Stable prints seem to be simply the latest example of this tendency. Where this might eventually lead is hard to say.

[bob carnie]

Hey Drew
How are you making separations negatives for your dye transfer prints?


Bob - wish I had time for color carbon, but I'll be lucky if I find time for dye transfer
this winter. I suspect that some of the difficulties in the commercial application of this process were due to contaminants in the pigments which caused ongoing cross-linking of the gelatin within the bulk films, so often led to blisters or other forms of
failure in the final product. The older halftone look wasn't so acceptable either. Yet
I hope this kind of printmaking will continue to evolve with new ideas. I think many
improvements could be made.

[Drew Wiley]

Bob- I make separations traditionally, using film, but with various tweaks and some
improved equipment. I use TM100 or TM400. The results are much better than in the
"good old days" of Super-XX. Curve correction is done with punch-and-register masking. With DT and Ciba, your masks and separations are same size as the original film, versus UV contact processes, where one might want to enlarge the seps with an image setter or something. Fun but time-consuming.

[bob carnie]

Good on you Drew,
the reason I ask is I am trying to separate with my Lambda with rollie ortho film and I am trying to think like a dye transfer worker than a cmyk halftone worker, if that makes any sense.
I will be in touch , with some questions as I move further into my madness.


Bob- I make separations traditionally, using film, but with various tweaks and some
improved equipment. I use TM100 or TM400. The results are much better than in the
"good old days" of Super-XX. Curve correction is done with punch-and-register masking. With DT and Ciba, your masks and separations are same size as the original film, versus UV contact processes, where one might want to enlarge the seps with an image setter or something. Fun but time-consuming.