Film Out of Stock - Beware!

[rcjtapio]

I live in the Chicago area & shoot T-Max 400 film. There is not one box of T-Max 400 for sale in the entire city. I tried Calumet, Central Camera, Helix, PJs & some suburban camera stores....nothing.....nix....zero.....zip. I even checked with Freestyle to see if they could overnight a box (they can, it would be expensive, but even they only have 6 in stock). They all say college students buy it up. If everybody is out, someone is not "getting it." Either Kodak does not think there is a demand, or the photo supply stores think there is no demand...maybe both.

Is this a sign of things to come? Where is the commitment to film I keep hearing about from the manufacturers?

hmmmmm.......?

Rick Tapio

[domaz]

Maybe an instructor in a photo course said "go out and get some T-Max 400". That would probably do it.

[Ken Lee]

Does a posting like this... help ?

[Drew Wiley]

In the current economic climate, a lot of dealers and probably Kodak itself are under an
enormous amount of pressure to keep inventories low. The best investment at this time
is called a freezer. Shot and printed my first batch of 4x5 TM400 this week - all high
country work. A truly useful film with a long straight line. Harsh light no problem. Too bad it's so miserably expensive in 8x10.

[BrianShaw]

My local shops say they can "special order" just about any current Kodak LF film and have it ready for pickup in about 24 - 48 hours... can't they do that in Chi?

[eddie]

B&H has it.......

[Bob Salomon]

Try FotoCare in NYC.

[Bill_1856]

You guys are missing the point. The problem is not just that Rick can't get any T-Max 400 but that "Houston, we've got a problem!"

[Pete Roody]

Try FotoCare in NYC.

Ask for Glen when you call. He handles film orders.

[BrianShaw]

You guys are missing the point. The problem is not just that Rick can't get any T-Max 400 but that "Houston, we've got a problem!"

Who missed the point? I think he said he was in Chicago... or did I mis-read the original post?

[jeroldharter]

I have some 4x5 TMY2 on back order from Calumet. I was in no hurry when I bought it but the delay is getting longer...

TMY2 seems like a big success. I wonder if it is such a success that they did not manufacture enough or if somehow their business model is taking after the Wii.

[Pete Roody]

You guys are missing the point. The problem is not just that Rick can't get any T-Max 400 but that "Houston, we've got a problem!"

We didn't miss anything. I just stopped worrying about the film/paper supply line. When film is gone, I will learn wetplate. No pre-coated paper - just hand coat. Kodak gone - use Ilford. Ilford gone - use Efke.

[Terence McDonagh]

I think it's time to move out of Chicago . . .

Kidding. Mostly.

[John Bowen]

If y'all remember 2 years ago, Kodak let the supply of TMY dwindle prior to introducint TMY-2. Maybe, just maybe, Kodak is letting the supply of TMY-2 in 10 sheet boxes dwindle prior to reintroducing 25 or 50 sheet boxes........

Well, we can always hope...

[rcjtapio]

Just some random thoughts:

1. In a major market like Chicago, I'm surprised the 4X5 film stock is so low. If this is the case in Chicago, it probably is the case in other cities as well.

2. Money talks, & I think someone is missing the boat when demand is higher than supply.

3. In posting this thread, my hope is that maybe photo stores & film manufacturers are listening. I needed to speak up first, though. We need to let them know that maybe they have miscalculated the film market.

4. I've now learned to buy extra film when it is available & keep an extra box or two in the freezer.

5. I have tested T-Max 400 & Tri-X 320 (also all sold out), but now feel I need to test Ilford, T-Max 100, Efke & whatever else is out there as a backup.

6. Even though I was frustrated, I choose to see this in a positive way, in that, it sounds like a whole new generation is learning large format. Let's hope that these "students" fall in love with a LF image like us old-timers. New users will drive demand for more film to be made in the future. Maybe this situation is a good sign.

Rick

[Merg Ross]

Just some random thoughts:

1. In a major market like Chicago, I'm surprised the 4X5 film stock is so low. If this is the case in Chicago, it probably is the case in other cities as well.

2. Money talks, & I think someone is missing the boat when demand is higher than supply.

3. In posting this thread, my hope is that maybe photo stores & film manufacturers are listening. I needed to speak up first, though. We need to let them know that maybe they have miscalculated the film market.

4. I've now learned to buy extra film when it is available & keep an extra box or two in the freezer.

5. I have tested T-Max 400 & Tri-X 320 (also all sold out), but now feel I need to test Ilford, T-Max 100, Efke & whatever else is out there as a backup.

6. Even though I was frustrated, I choose to see this in a positive way, in that, it sounds like a whole new generation is learning large format. Let's hope that these "students" fall in love with a LF image like us old-timers. New users will drive demand for more film to be made in the future. Maybe this situation is a good sign.

Rick

Rick, I hope that you will find the film necessary for your next project.

To address your point #4 above, I have always made certain to have enough film on hand for at least two years of photography. When I was doing commercial work, this was somewhat difficult to calculate, but at that time, film was plentiful and not a major concern. I am referring to black and white sheet film, and have never found it necessary to freeze anything other than color film. Perhaps I am fortunate to live in a temperate climate.

The bottom line is, to know your contemplated output, and stock accordingly. If your favorite supplier or manufacturer pulls the plug, you will still have time to test and prepare for new materials. The same goes for paper if you do the wet process.

[dsphotog]

If y'all remember 2 years ago, Kodak let the supply of TMY dwindle prior to introducint TMY-2. Maybe, just maybe, Kodak is letting the supply of TMY-2 in 10 sheet boxes dwindle prior to reintroducing 25 or 50 sheet boxes........

Well, we can always hope...

Wouldn't it be great if Kodak was listening!

[jnantz]

jeez i haven't bought film in a long time ... 10sheet boxes ?

[ljsegil]

I think it's time to move out of Chicago . . .

Kidding. Mostly.

Yup, October is about time to move out of Chicago, the courageous begin to return in May.
No need to thaw freezer stored film prior to use during the months in between.
LJS

[Ken Lee]

Living in Massachusetts, I get mine from Badger Graphics, in Wisconsin.

Just got 2 boxes, no problems whatsoever, arrived quickly. Purchased online.

Same great taste - twice the speed - and half the calories* - of TMax 100.


* A fact little-known outside of Rochester NY

[BrianShaw]

Rick,

Addressing a couple of your points in post #15:

#1. The situation isn't too different in Los Angeles. Freestyle, of course, is one of the exceptions but most of the shops no longer have LF film and a dwindling amount of MF or 35mm. It is nothing like "the good old days" when everything was in stockl and could be had at a moment's notice.

#2. I agree... but I'm not sure that the demand is high enough to warrant the risk of stocking materials that might not sell. There must be some sound logic behind the most vendors not carrying film and traditional printing materials any more.

It is an unfortunate experience for those of us who still like.use the old processes.

[Wallace_Billingham]

I think the issue has everything to do with seasonal variablility disrupting a constant supply chain.

The problem that retailers and film makers such as Kodak, Ilford, etc face is that demand for film from month to month is all over the place and very unpredictable.

For example out of the blue a bunch of college kids buy a crap load of film this year in September so a bunch of places sell out. So average users have a hard time finding it, then when stores get it back in stock these average users whip out the credit card and buy a ton of it to keep in the freezer. The store and Kodak says wow film sales are moving up lets make and stock more.

So the store orders more and Kodak makes more. The only problem is that now the college kids already got theirs and the average user has a freezer full. So the film sits around gets dutsy and gets marked down as a short date special.

So now the store orders less and Kodak makes less. Then some other event creates a spike in demand and the process starts all over again.

[Brian Ellis]

I think the issue has everything to do with seasonal variablility disrupting a constant supply chain.

The problem that retailers and film makers such as Kodak, Ilford, etc face is that demand for film from month to month is all over the place and very unpredictable.

For example out of the blue a bunch of college kids buy a crap load of film this year in September so a bunch of places sell out. So average users have a hard time finding it, then when stores get it back in stock these average users whip out the credit card and buy a ton of it to keep in the freezer. The store and Kodak says wow film sales are moving up lets make and stock more.

So the store orders more and Kodak makes more. The only problem is that now the college kids already got theirs and the average user has a freezer full. So the film sits around gets dutsy and gets marked down as a short date special.

So now the store orders less and Kodak makes less. Then some other event creates a spike in demand and the process starts all over again.

Actually if a store is in an area with colleges that teach film-based photography courses, a spike in film demand in September and January is totally predictable. The camera store I worked in years ago knew that those months would be heavy demand because there were three colleges in the area that taught photography courses. So the store just stocked up for those months. Any retail store that is still in business has figured that out a long time ago or they wouldn't still be in business. So I don't think the OP's problem in Chicago is related to college photography courses.

[BrianShaw]

Actually if a store is in an area with colleges that teach film-based photography courses, a spike in film demand in September and January is totally predictable. The camera store I worked in years ago knew that those months would be heavy demand because there were three colleges in the area that taught photography courses. So the store just stocked up for those months. Any retail store that is still in business has figured that out a long time ago or they wouldn't still be in business. So I don't think the OP's problem in Chicago is related to college photography courses.


My favorite "mom-and-pop" couldn't supply lens cleaning tissue or a 52mm lens cap two months ago. I was so surprised I asked if htey were going out of business. They were telling people to come back in September when shcool is in session. For some strange reason they don't feel the need to be fully stocked in the months when shcool is not in session... and they've been in business for at least 30 years. As much as I don't like having to drive all over town or pay shipping to get "normal" supplies, I'm glad they know how to keep their business open.

[evan clarke]

Does a posting like this... help ?

I think it's a valuable warning. The Calumet store Rick is talking about is the national shipping center and once I was in the warehouse cooler which had tens of thousands of boxes of film..all their film is now in the wimpy little cooler behind the sales counter. I made four trips there this year trying to get TMY in 120 and they were out all four times. Chicago has always been a sheet film town and I think this outage is ominous. Film will go away one day right along with buggy whips and steam locomotives....Evan Clarke

[Marko]

My favorite "mom-and-pop" couldn't supply lens cleaning tissue or a 52mm lens cap two months ago. I was so surprised I asked if htey were going out of business. They were telling people to come back in September when shcool is in session. For some strange reason they don't feel the need to be fully stocked in the months when shcool is not in session... and they've been in business for at least 30 years. As much as I don't like having to drive all over town or pay shipping to get "normal" supplies, I'm glad they know how to keep their business open.

You should try Canoga Camera, they are usually pretty well stocked and may be closer to you than the Big Three. :)

[BrianShaw]

You should try Canoga Camera, they are usually pretty well stocked and may be closer to you than the Big Three. :)

That's one of my favorite shops. More often likely to have the LF or MF film I'm needing. I prefer the processing at The Darkroom. It's tough having two favorites!

[Pete Roody]

I think it's a valuable warning. The Calumet store Rick is talking about is the national shipping center and once I was in the warehouse cooler which had tens of thousands of boxes of film..all their film is now in the wimpy little cooler behind the sales counter. I made four trips there this year trying to get TMY in 120 and they were out all four times. Chicago has always been a sheet film town and I think this outage is ominous. Film will go away one day right along with buggy whips and steam locomotives....Evan Clarke

What are you saying? You can still buy all the buggy whips and steam locomotives you need on the internet.

http://yp.bellsouth.com.wvproxy.com/sites/buggywhips/page3.html?wvsessionid=22310c58cb044b5bafa4a27b74334441


http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/

[Marko]

Actually if a store is in an area with colleges that teach film-based photography courses, a spike in film demand in September and January is totally predictable. The camera store I worked in years ago knew that those months would be heavy demand because there were three colleges in the area that taught photography courses. So the store just stocked up for those months. Any retail store that is still in business has figured that out a long time ago or they wouldn't still be in business. So I don't think the OP's problem in Chicago is related to college photography courses.

The OP's problem in Chicago is basically the intersection of a technology transition and a business model change.

Film has ceased being perishable commodity and became perishable novelty a while ago. Stock space is expensive, especially in big(ger) cities and it simply does not make sense to use it for an item with such a low sales volume and margins.

Online sales are the way to go, have been for a while now. Lower prices, better choice and availability. The only downside is the lack of immediacy, for those items that are (still) being stocked in (remaining) brick and mortar stores. When they are in stock, of course.

There is nothing ominous about either, it's just the way the market evolves and there is nothing in particular that the buyers should beware here. Being aware of it is something else entirely.

[D. Bryant]

Wow Badger Graphics is out of stock too for Kodak B&W TMX & TMY 4x5. I wonder what gives with Kodak.

I'm not trying to promote doom and gloom but I hope that this is just a temporary supply issue. I'm sure with the economy depressed that sales are probably down so we could possibly be seeing a price increase for new supplies or long delays for resupply.

Just speculation on my part.

Don Bryant

[Wayne Crider]

I wonder if Kodak's just cutting rolls once, maybe twice a year now? I doubt they could run a line 52 weeks a year. There may not be that much demand year wise when you figure in competition from Fuji, Ilford, Efke and the rest. In fact alot of photographers are sitting on more film then they can shoot, which is why you see the out of date sales. Personally I wouldn't expect otherwise. Outages will probably be normal from time to time.

[Tony Flora]

Film will go away one day right along with buggy whips and steam locomotives....Evan Clarke

and paint brushes....

[Drew Wiley]

Judging from the batch codes on recent TM film, they're not doing too shabby. Kodak seems to be making frequent production runs. Local shortages are another matter,
but I haven't personally encountered any problems other than the annoying 10 sheet
packaging in 8X10.

[jnantz]

they were asked by our favorite film cutting people in california a while back,
if they would sell them a master roll and let them do the cutting, packaging and REdistribution,
... K said NOPE ..

it is kind of sad since the people in california could cut to pretty much
any size asked for ( small or big ), and odd-sizes wouldn't have had to be special ordered through a dealer ...
do ulf folks have a hard time getting film these days ... ?

[D. Bryant]

they were asked by our favorite film cutting people in california a while back,
if they would sell them a master roll and let them do the cutting, packaging and REdistribution,
... K said NOPE ..

it is kind of sad since the people in california could cut to pretty much
any size asked for ( small or big ), and odd-sizes wouldn't have had to be special ordered through a dealer ...
do ulf folks have a hard time getting film these days ... ?
I think Kodak's answer is quite reasonable for a number of reasons.

[jeroldharter]

Badger is out of stock.

[Greg Blank]

I'll share some thoughts, this week I purchased a 50 sheet box of Provia, I would have liked Velvia 100F but Calumet said they have had the film on BO for over 4 months- what they did have was past date . Maybe the Velvia 100F is going to be axed?

In speaking with another dealer they stated Slide film is dead. I've been shooting slides since 1982. I have also like negative films but don't like the scanning quality of Fuiji negative films... and I wanted to try my hand at E6 processing....which I have also been doing this last week using old frig stored film and stuff I have yet to process from the last two years, not knowing who does good E6 around here.

In the past decade with regard to 4x5, I have mostly shot color negative film then printing in my wet darkroom, until I revived slides for my editorial work using 6 x6 , then came digital. I don't like the over all resolution of digital for landscape, but the colors can be nice :0

Some time ago I bought 600 dollars of Ilford 4x5 b&w and 8x10 when they threatened bankruptcy. So I have alot of B&W - and add that I would purchase at least another 2 K+ of Ilford now, if I would be assured I have a life time supply of B&W.

My point is I think the days of calling up and expecting a dealer to stock a 5 percent or less item of their budget is over, if you want the product support it, buy more of it once or buy more of it more frequently. I've been saying this for years on various forums.


I live in the Chicago area & shoot T-Max 400 film. There is not one box of T-Max 400 for sale in the entire city. I tried Calumet, Central Camera, Helix, PJs & some suburban camera stores....nothing.....nix....zero.....zip. I even checked with Freestyle to see if they could overnight a box (they can, it would be expensive, but even they only have 6 in stock). They all say college students buy it up. If everybody is out, someone is not "getting it." Either Kodak does not think there is a demand, or the photo supply stores think there is no demand...maybe both.

Is this a sign of things to come? Where is the commitment to film I keep hearing about from the manufacturers?

hmmmmm.......?

Rick Tapio

[Greg Blank]

And they are????? Those reasons you find reasonable???? Are?


I think Kodak's answer is quite reasonable for a number of reasons.

[Marko]

And they are????? Those reasons you find reasonable???? Are?

The first very obvious and very reasonable reason ;) that comes to mind is QC.

If they let someone else into the loop, they basically give up on the part of the process that pretty much defined Kodak as such, as much as their films did.

All it would take to make irreparable damage in this kind of market would be sudden appearance of a faulty batch. Say a scratched base, or slightly miss-cut size... Happens with some other manufacturers occasionally and each time it drags the reputation down.

That being said, what's with all the question marks? Keyboard stuck or something? :rolleyes:

[Andrew O'Neill]

Me and a buddy just ordered 12 boxes of 8x10 TMY-2 from The Camera Store in Calgary, Canada. Their supplier has it in stock and should ship shortly.
Not too keen on these 10 sheet boxes though. Why doesn't Kodak make it more attractive? 25 sheet boxes at least.

[Merg Ross]

The first very obvious and very reasonable reason ;) that comes to mind is QC.

If they let someone else into the loop, they basically give up on the part of the process that pretty much defined Kodak as such, as much as their films did.

All it would take to make irreparable damage in this kind of market would be sudden appearance of a faulty batch. Say a scratched base, or slightly miss-cut size... Happens with some other manufacturers occasionally and each time it drags the reputation down.

That being said, what's with all the question marks? Keyboard stuck or something? :rolleyes:

Exactly! A very reasonable response from Kodak.

[D. Bryant]

And they are????? Those reasons you find reasonable???? Are?
Greg,

Do you really need me to answer that question?

Don Bryant

[evan clarke]

What are you saying? You can still buy all the buggy whips and steam locomotives you need on the internet.

http://yp.bellsouth.com.wvproxy.com/sites/buggywhips/page3.html?wvsessionid=22310c58cb044b5bafa4a27b74334441


http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/

You can but TMY too but did you check stock on the whips and where will you ride to on one of the locomotives??:D ..Evan Clarke

[jnantz]

The first very obvious and very reasonable reason ;) that comes to mind is QC.

If they let someone else into the loop, they basically give up on the part of the process that pretty much defined Kodak as such, as much as their films did.

All it would take to make irreparable damage in this kind of market would be sudden appearance of a faulty batch. Say a scratched base, or slightly miss-cut size... Happens with some other manufacturers occasionally and each time it drags the reputation down.

That being said, what's with all the question marks? Keyboard stuck or something? :rolleyes:


was ilford's reputation dragged down when PW was cutting their film + paper ... they did it for years ...

i never heard of people here or anywhere who purchased film from PW "back in the day" who had problems ...

i can understand K wants to keep everything "in house" ...
it is too bad they won''t custom cut film though, special orders are a big pain ...
it used to be a great thing for sheet film users all around to be able
to have a source to cut film to order ...

[Jan Pedersen]

Ultrafine online's "house brand film" is as far as i understand Kodak film.
Most is 35mm and 120 but they do also have 4x5 sheet film which i believe is TMY.

[Marko]

was ilford's reputation dragged down when PW was cutting their film + paper ... they did it for years ...

i never heard of people here or anywhere who purchased film from PW "back in the day" who had problems ...

i can understand K wants to keep everything "in house" ...
it is too bad they won''t custom cut film though, special orders are a big pain ...
it used to be a great thing for sheet film users all around to be able
to have a source to cut film to order ...

Personal desires are one thing, recognizing reality for what it is is quite another. It's nice when the two coincide, but any real connection is purely, well, coincidental.

As for Ilford, just search this forum. :)

BTW, I did not say I liked or even approved of Kodak's decision, I just said it was reasonable, that's all.

[rcjtapio]

The crazy thing about this film shortage issue is that, not only is T-Max 400 in short supply, but Tri-X 320 is as well. (Seems like the Ilford films are available) So what is the common denominator:

1. a 400, higher speed issue?
2. a Kodak issue?
3. a resurgance in LF issue?
4. a hording issue?
5. a bad economy/low inventory issue?
6. a student issue
7. there just was an article in Photo Techniques about how great T-Max 400 is, so maybe a lot of people decided to try it out.

I'm sure the supply will eventually catch up, but it has caused me to think differently about how will purchase LF supplies. Live & learn in a changing world.

Rick

[Greg Blank]

Guess It did get out of control :)


The first very obvious and very reasonable reason ;) that comes to mind is QC.

If they let someone else into the loop, they basically give up on the part of the process that pretty much defined Kodak as such, as much as their films did.

All it would take to make irreparable damage in this kind of market would be sudden appearance of a faulty batch. Say a scratched base, or slightly miss-cut size... Happens with some other manufacturers occasionally and each time it drags the reputation down.

That being said, what's with all the question marks? Keyboard stuck or something? :rolleyes:

[Greg Blank]

Nah, I think now I have my answers :)


Greg,

Do you really need me to answer that question?

Don Bryant

[Greg Blank]

Just buy whatever is needed six months in advance and you will be happy.



The crazy thing about this film shortage issue is that, not only is T-Max 400 in short supply, but Tri-X 320 is as well. (Seems like the Ilford films are available) So what is the common denominator:

1. a 400, higher speed issue?
2. a Kodak issue?
3. a resurgance in LF issue?
4. a hording issue?
5. a bad economy/low inventory issue?
6. a student issue
7. there just was an article in Photo Techniques about how great T-Max 400 is, so maybe a lot of people decided to try it out.

I'm sure the supply will eventually catch up, but it has caused me to think differently about how will purchase LF supplies. Live & learn in a changing world.

Rick

[Robert Hughes]

I hear the government is taking away our film by 2012! The end of the world is coming and I wanna get it on film...

Now if you'll excuse me, I've gotta stock up on silver nitrate for my bunker.

[Kirk Fry]

So no one said much about film development. I live in the SF bay area. There are no more than 3 labs that still develop color sheet film left. Today I went to Costco to get my slide film developed. The lady looked at me and said not here...... It is a vicious circle. And developing costs more now than the film does, 4 X 5 color now costs close to $8 a shot time you add film and developing. I used to think 35mm film would be the last to go. I am not so sure anymore. Kfry

[eddie]

so you can not go into a local store and buy LF film anymore.....who cares? order it online and be done. i have been doing it for years.

as stated earlier. B&H photo has it in stock. go buy it already. only takes a few days to arrive.

no big deal. there is no shortage.

[EdWorkman]

Jan P wrote
<Ultrafine online's "house brand film" is as far as i understand Kodak film.>

i have tried the 120 and sheet film
No Way In Hell was it Kodak. It IS cheap, but there are several clues:
The spools are european style, but the other clues say NOT Ilford
The tape at the end of the roll looks to be applied by hand
I got straaaaaaaange "unevenness of exposure" along the edge of one roll- not related to frames etc.
The curve is wierd, compared to brand A and B that I am used to.
It's somewaht grainier.
The sheet film seems a tad slower than the box sez, but no other comments.
I did get one frame - senior pic for my son- to work just fine- and all I needed was one- out of the worst roll. The curve and graininess made printing the rest tough, for my uses.
Do I complain-? NO it's not Kodak and it was CHEAP- I needed film and I needed it cheap at the time. Usually price and quality relate- this did.

That said, it wasn't a handling problem, the problems started at the [far far eastern Europe or Asia? ]factory.
I do wish that there was a way to get custom cut film without having to buy 10000 square feet/meters/yards/euros. And I kick myself for being broke when I coulda bought 10 inch rolls when whoozitz folded [will I ever master my #10 Cirkut?], and I am still plodding along at my 7x17 camera project, got 4 rolls of R100 120 to try in order to see if I should get a 100ftx70mm roll while I can....

Heck, I'd buy brand X 10"x100 ft even now at similar prices, knowing I could/might lose a few exposures

[Jan Pedersen]

Ed, Thanks for the info, i will stay away from this film then.
Did you try what they advertise as T grain film or the Plus brand?

[EdWorkman]

No I didn't try T film . Can't recall what the 120 was called , other than 400 speed- that was in 2006
I think some of the info about Ilford repackaging has been overstated as well from time to time, at least in 35mm, as Ilford did [don't think they do now, after re-org] offer films of HP and FP speeds but specifically not so named per the website. I have no idea what differed, but I presume they had "good reasons" not to call them "HP" or FP"
I did make good use of the film after I knew its qualities- I had shutter issues with some Pentax 67 bodies and was glad I had the film for those tests.

[lecarp]

Not the end of the world, just back to the beginning.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/

[D. Bryant]

so you can not go into a local store and buy LF film anymore.....who cares? order it online and be done. i have been doing it for years.

as stated earlier. B&H photo has it in stock. go buy it already. only takes a few days to arrive.

no big deal. there is no shortage.

Well there is still one store locally where I can purchase fresh 4x5 Fuji NPS and some 4x5 Tri-x, but from what they tell me those days are probably numbered as their film sales are plummeting in all sizes and they have been in business for a long time.

But I agree, support the vendors that sell what we want, it's just how things are today.

Don Bryant

[Gordon Moat]

Wow Badger Graphics is out of stock too for Kodak B&W TMX & TMY 4x5. I wonder what gives with Kodak.......

I got a little insight on this a couple months ago, while trying to get Kodak E200 in 120 rollfilm size. A few years ago, Kodak moved away from direct orders, and switched to distributor ordering. If a distributor maintains enough volume, and then can clear inventory at a fast enough rate, then they will maintain stocks in certain Kodak films.

The main issue I see with this is that distributors make the decisions on availability. While it might cost Kodak less money to use this method, what it does is create artificial decreases in demand: distributor decides a certain film moves too little or too slowly and stops ordering from Kodak, customers are unable to purchase due to distributor action, and then Kodak concludes demand is reduced. The reality is that availability has been reduced, and less often that demand reduced.

I really wish Kodak would go back to dealer direct ordering, even if it means higher film prices. If I have to pay shipping now, I would rather buy local at any price that was close, and at least have film sooner. Compare this to Fujifilm who still allow direct dealer ordering, which makes any Fuji film easier to order than Kodak.

Kodak is making itself a victim of poor management decisions, and not from decreased demand. This is a customer service issue, and something that Fuji accomplishes far better than Kodak. Hopefully if the board of Kodak wakes up they will get rid of Antonio Perez, and get back to good customer service.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[John Jarosz]

I think it's that this kind of occurrence here in Chicago is a real paradigm shift. We have never had to think that we would have to go online or mail order to buy something like film in the 3rd largest city in the country. But as others have said, times change. My son just called me the other day to see if I had some 120 E-6 laying around as he waited too long to trek downtown to get some before shooting some portraits.. Seems 120 is extinct in the burbs.

Even so, I would still refer to this kind of thing as "spot shortages". But these days I think we have to plan for this.


Film has ceased being perishable commodity and became perishable novelty a while ago.
Sad but true.......

[Robert Hughes]

Not the end of the world, just back to the beginning.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/
Thanks for the link here. My guess is that the future of film photography is in re-applying techniques that were in use before the Kodak era, when DYI was the norm. Digital is so simple, and so reliable nowadays, that it matches my best film-based efforts with ease - if I'm going for standard imaging.

[DolphinDan]

I am looking for VELVIA 100 in 8x10. B&H lists it as a special order item

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/401595-USA/Fujifilm_15522895_RVP_8x10_Fujichrome_Velvia.html

, BADGER is currently out of stock (I asked Jeff to order some)

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1364

, and pretty much every shop (ADORAMA, COLOR-MARK here in AZ, CALUMET, etc.) I normally order 8x10 film from does not carry it. When I check JAPAN EXPOSURES over in Japan, they listed VELVIA 100 8x10 as a special order item as well:

http://www.japanexposures.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=44

It's one thing when you cannot find some obscure film online or at a shop, but when you cannot find a film like VELVIA 100, to me that is a problem.

Yes, I know VELVIA 50 is close; but I prefer the colors and sharpness of VELVIA 100.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

And if anybody can point me to a website or shop selling 8x10 VELVIA 100, then I sure would appreciate it.

Namaste
Daniel

[jeroldharter]

I have some 4x5 TMY2 on back order from Calumet. I was in no hurry when I bought it but the delay is getting longer...

TMY2 seems like a big success. I wonder if it is such a success that they did not manufacture enough or if somehow their business model is taking after the Wii.

I received my backordered film from Calumet today. Emulsion #109.

[rcjtapio]

I also found film back in stock at Central Camera in Chicago.

Rick

[Jim Burk]

Here in Orange County we have Pro Photo and Samy's very close. Both carry a lot of film, chemicals, etc. Last week both were out of T-Max 400, but I ordered some from Freestyle. Orange Coast College is close to both of these, and has a very large and active film program. All classes are filled every semester, and by the end of the semester it is hard to get darkroom time.

At $100 a semester for equipment, darkrooms and all the standard chemistry you can use, as well as a complete digital setup with high end printers, it is a great deal for a hobbyist. Plus there are always some very experienced instructors available if you want any help. This really keeps the local photo shops jumping at the start of each semester.

[Allen in Montreal]

4x5 50 sht boxes of TMY 2 are now in stock in Montreal too, sounds like they just let the old stock run out before releasing the new stock. I called around to try and buy up old stock and could not find any to be had.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Me and a buddy just ordered 12 boxes of 8x10 TMY-2 from The Camera Store in Calgary, Canada. Their supplier has it in stock and should ship shortly.
Not too keen on these 10 sheet boxes though. Why doesn't Kodak make it more attractive? 25 sheet boxes at least.

That was me back in Oct. 9th. I'm still waiting for my TMY-2!

[Athiril]

Film will go away one day right along with buggy whips and steam locomotives....Evan Clarke

You'll be able to get film from asia for long time to come, I remember few years ago Kodak investing in Lucky film factories in China when it was like 17th on the film market, China is now #2 on the film market in terms of consumption.

Shanghai film is available in 4x5 as well, its very close to Ilford FP4 (the 120 roll version GP3 is beautiful and some of the flattest film Ive used.. compared to Fuji Pro 400H that curls a lot after drying).

Kodak also have a contract to produce EIR until at least 2018.

[jim kitchen]

That was me back in Oct. 9th. I'm still waiting for my TMY-2!

Dear Andrew,

I am waiting for my order too... :)

jim k

[Greg Liscio]

I just received 4 boxes of Fuji 4X5 FP-100 C45 instant film from Badger Graphic. The expiration date was 1/2010. I asked Jeff if he had any film with longer dating, he told me that was the most recent batch, and all had the same date.

Still waiting for my Velvia 50 Quick-Loads that I ordered over a month ago. Not Good!!

[gevalia]

Living in Massachusetts, I get mine from Badger Graphics, in Wisconsin.

Just got 2 boxes, no problems whatsoever, arrived quickly. Purchased online.

Same great taste - twice the speed - and half the calories* - of TMax 100.


* A fact little-known outside of Rochester NY

Yeah, I must say that I am always pleasanly surprised by Badgers availability and shipping on anything I am looking for.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Well, if nothing materializes by Christmas, I'll stay with my first love, HP5+. My venture with TMY-2 was nothing but a brief fling.

[Greg Liscio]

Spoke with Fuji Film Customer Support today, as well as B & H. Here's what I heard.

From Fuji:
- No plans to discontinue any film although supply will decrease
- B&H and Adorama are key suppliers of Fuji Film; they should always have the film product when available
- Fuji film is distributed with two year shelf life. Doesn't explain why the last batch I received from Badger of FP-100 expires in two MONTHS.

From B&H (From Sales guy - so take it for what its worth)
- Sales of all large format film falling off sharply
- "Thinks" Astia film is being discontinued. Follow-up call to Fuji their Customer Service says "No". But who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Fuji Japan.
- "Thinks" the Fuji Quickloads will be discontinued before the loose sheet film
- Here's a shocker (to me). He claims that sales of 8 X 10 film exceed 4 X 5

[Drew Wiley]

Just a little tip from someone who deals with quite a few manufacturers on a regular
basis (me): 1) A Customer Service rep is generally an entry-level job; these people are frequently clueless. Once in awhile you will get a good one who will ask the
right questions then call you back. However, the person they ask might also be clueless. 2) Many marketing decisions are made abitrarily based upon old-fashioned
peck-order ego. You could lose your favorite film simply because some big shot is
in a foul mood and wants to throw his weight around. 3) At least 50% of sales reps
are pure BS. They'll say anything just to get rid of you. After all, you aren't the one
placing big orders with them, and even if you were, they've got a grudge on their
employer anyway, so frankly don't give a damn. These are the facts in even a good
economic climate. Nowadays things are a lot less predictable. In other words, just
about every rumor you might hear about the future availability of a particular film
is pretty much meaningless. And spot outages of inventory could be due to all kinds
of reasons (including the real possibility the camera store or whatever just isn't
paying its bills on time anymore!). So unless something is formally announced by a
mfg you're just guessing. Marketing and distribution with any large mfg is a very
complicated thing right now, and there are plenty of idiots in these corporations
doing their best to make things worse.

[Greg Liscio]

Just a little tip from someone who deals with quite a few manufacturers on a regular
basis (me):

Thank you Drew. But that's exactly why I wrote "heard." I was passing it along without comment. Sometimes all the pieces can help.

[evan clarke]

Most of the people here don't shop at the Calumet store and national shipping center on Cherry Street in Chicago and have not toured the warehouse facility. Rick and I have... onepoint of his OP was the shocking fall off of film stocks at Calumet. Five years ago, standing among their shipping stock of film was like standing in the middle of Manhattan, New York. Now it's like standing at a crossroads in rural Montana..nothing there...Evan Clarke

[imagedowser]

Just reread the article in Sept 1995 View Camera. The Doc Francis Chronicles by Geo. Dewolfe on sheet film, made me think of thelightfarm.com... did someone say it's not the end of the world, just the beginning? Is Eddie and others ahead of the curve, working in collodion? We may be screwed or just have to take the backward step. Anyone got some nitric acid and a silver dollar?

[Larry McNeil]

I teach both intermediate and advanced black & white university photography courses. Our photography stores/businesses run out of b&w film all the time, especially good old Kodak Tri-X.

Not only that, their inexperienced salespeople make a habit out of badmouthing our photography faculty for still requiring film. I constantly tell their manager that it is not a good business practice for their sales people to be badmouthing us, because after all, we're their best customers for both equipment and supplies. Not only that, but our teaching philosophy has to do with learning the craft of photography prior to letting students into digital classes, and film still does that best.

Their manager tells me that they occasionally get caught with an overstock of film and end up selling it at a loss. He mentioned one $10,000.00 batch in particular. I counter by telling him that we've had a steady demand that has not deviated in over 15 years and they should have their supply orders standardized by now. I also tell him that when he runs out of film for our students, they end up just buying it online, a practice that I'd like to see minimized in order to have a steady supply of what our students need easily available. Not only that, we like the idea of a healthy, vibrant photography business right here in town & we encourage students to buy locally.

At any rate, they ran out of film again this semester and lots of our students bought their film online, precipitating another talk with their manager. He fully acknowledged the mistake and bought more film, if a bit grudgingly. I have a feeling that the above scenario happens all over the country because I hear it from other photography professors everywhere, even in large metropolitan areas. It all comes down to good business sense and simply fulfilling the demand for film. We still have a lot of locals who shoot film too, so they get shortchanged too.

Our Kodak rep mentions that they're constantly lobbied by photographers all over the world to keep on producing their various films, especially Tri-x. Kodachrome was a close second for lobbying, but of course they're already history with stopped production.

thanks,
Larry

[jp]

You people who live in a city large enough to have a photo store are spoiled to be able to buy B&W and/or LF film or supplies locally.

A vibrant photo retailer in your town is an unusual luxury.

They have either found a good niche, have an unusual and successful business, or a soon to be doomed and are buoyed a larger potential market than most similar retailers.

I've been ordering it online for about a decade now. I live near a little city. It has a walmart, home depot, movie theater, 2 grocery stores, but no camera shops outside of a couple minilab places. We used to have three actual businesses in nearby towns a decade or so ago that sold film, paper, chemicals, but they've since either shut down or morphed into different business opportunities. Even then I had to mailorder some stuff from freestyle, etc... when you needed more than the most basic of consumables.

[Michael Kadillak]

Wow. Talk about a disconnect with reality.

Contrary to our desires over the last five + years film has been slowly transitioning from an integral component of a standard business models to a niche product that is rarely stocked if at all. I don't like it any more than anyone else but welcome to the brave new world.

There is a new credo among conventional photographers very necessary to continue in this art form we so love. First is to accept the reality of the situation and acquire a chest freezer. They are very reasonable in cost and are your first line of defense. Second is to step up to the plate and keep it stocked with your favorite film. You will be ordering all of your product online (if you are not already doing it) so get used to it. The freezer will not only it insure that you do not get pinched waiting for an order but it will give you the opportunity to benefit from using the same emulsion.

Don't abandon ship over concern about the longevity of sheet film. It will be around for as long as you want to have access to it. We just completed a 15 box order of Efke 25 in 8x20 (25 sheets per box) and even though it was a special order it was a bit over a month from order to delivery. Lastly, when you step up to the plate and make sheet film purchases you send a strong signal to the manufacturers that you are interested in their products.

Smile. Analog photography is still very very good and I do not see that changing anytime soon.

[Steve Hamley]

Michael,

I just loaded two 8x20 holders with the Efke 25 this morning. It's a new emulsion to me, but there's nothing like jumping into the deep end of the pool!

I have a chest freezer and looking to add an upright soon.

Cheers, Steve