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View Full Version : efke pl-100 in hc-110?...anyone?



d.s.
5-Oct-2009, 17:15
Hi all,
I'm looking for times and dilution info on developing efke pl-100 in HC-110. I use a beseler 8x10 print drum on a unicolor uniroller.

Has anyone done this that can share some start-up information?

dee

Eric Rose
6-Oct-2009, 09:25
I found HC110 not to be an optimal developer for PL100. I have tried HC110, Rodinal, D76 and Xtol with PL100 and finally settled on PyroCat, semi-stand. Natually this only applies to my way of taking and printing, as they say YMMV.

Chris Jones
6-Oct-2009, 15:44
Check the massive development chart. I find these times a good starting points.

I am finding HC-110 to be on the contrasty side used at 1+50 with 10 seconds agitation every two minutes for Shanghai 100. Rodinal and ID11 are giving me better results although I will test HC-110 more carefully.

erie patsellis
7-Oct-2009, 07:31
I use HC110 dil G or H with R100, I'll have to dig out my records, haven't shot it in a while having been on an HP5 kick lately. You do need to do EI and CI testing, regardless of what developer you use, as the EFKE/Adox EI ratings are optimistic, to say the least. With a good testing methodology, R100 can deliver startling good images.

d.s.
7-Oct-2009, 09:35
Thanks everyone, I just got several boxes of pl-100 and I have lots of hc-110. Of course the first thing I'll do is testing...(fun). I'm using a Uniroller and drum and was looking for a ballpark starting point using this process.


The massive development chart gives me something to extrapolate from.

Erie, I use dil. H often. I'd be interested in your info if you can find it.

Again thanks to all that responded,
dee

Chris Jones
8-Oct-2009, 01:39
dee, I would be interested in your results if you get a chance to post. HC-110 is something I only recently have encountered. It has a straighter curve which it seems to me can explain that contrasty look I am getting. This seems to me to worth following up since I can use this look.

1+50 for 14 mins for Shanghai 100 with slow inversion on a HP Combi tank for 10 secs every two minutes seems to give this contrasty look. As for continuous agitation, I would guess minus 20 percent of this time. I have read that HC-110 is very sensitive to different agitation.

d.s.
11-Oct-2009, 10:40
OK, Here's the results of my testing for zone I.

Film:EFKE PL-100M, 4x5, emulsion # 810645, expire date 07-2010.
(and I just noticed the box says "Tropical", I don't have a clue what that means.)

Sheets exposed for zone I at ASA 64, 80, 100, 125.
All four sheets developed at one time in a Unicolor drum on a model 352 Uniroller base.

Prerinse 5 min. @71f.
Dev. HC-110, (5 ml. syrup, plus water to make 300 ml.) @71f, for 8:28.
Stop. Water, 350 ml. @71f, for 30 sec.
Fix. 10 min. @73f, (old fixer so I went longer.) (temp is that of under counter storage.)
Wash. 5min. @71f
Hypo clear. 4 min. @73f. (stored next to fixer.)
Wash for 10 min. @71f
Photo flo and hang to dry.

ASA: :B+F: :Z-I net density:
125: :0.08: :0.03:
100: :0.08: :0.05:
80: :0.08: :0.07:
64: :0.08: :0.1:

All water used was tap at the temp that it comes out of the tap. It may have varied to +.5f by the time I got to the end of the final wash.

For develop times I took the time from the Massive Developing Chart which was for dil.B, 6 min. @68 f. I used dil. H. Only instead of 4.7 ml., I used 5 ml. as it's easier to measure with the equipment I have. I then added tap water to make 300 ml. (It's sort of dil. H+). The time is twice that of Dil. B. I then reduced the time by 20% for using the rotary process.

For the development time conversion from 68f to 71f I used the formula: New time = Old time exp(-0.045 (New temp F - Old temp F)).

I was hoping to get a higher speed than 64 and I may redo the test at minus 10% for rotary, and without pre rinse to see if speed comes up to 80 but not til after I do zone VIII time test. I have some negs from the same box that I shot at 80, no pre rinse; before testing and they look contrasty but might be what I need for cold light (V-54) head.


Comments and suggestions are welcome!

dee

Greg Blank
11-Oct-2009, 10:58
I hated Efke PL 100 when I tested it several years ago. The base fog should be in my opinion something no higher than .05 for HC110 and a 100 asa film. I got a BF around 1.00 with HC110 and D23. Any clear developer- non staining should be producing BF much lower to truely be a 100 asa film. You could compare the BF with Tri-X and the Tri-X will be lower.

Tropical means it can be used and developed in warm weather locations.


OK, Here's the results of my testing for zone I.

Film:EFKE PL-100M, 4x5, emulsion # 810645, expire date 07-2010.
(and I just noticed the box says "Tropical", I don't have a clue what that means.)

ASA: :B+F: :Z-I net density:
125: :0.08: :0.03:
100: :0.08: :0.05:
80: :0.08: :0.07:
64: :0.08: :0.1:
Comments and suggestions are welcome!

dee

d.s.
11-Oct-2009, 11:37
Do you think the base fog would be lower if not rotary developed? Good to know about "tropical". It does get warm here on the OBX.


dee

I do have some old EFKE that does have base fog of .17

Greg Blank
11-Oct-2009, 12:51
I think its a inherent problem, though I could blame the manufacturer, I could also blame US customs. Any imported photo sensitive material is subject to scanning at port. When a container comes in, it is subject to scanning. Ilford and Fuji don't seem to have these issues with thier older formula emulsions, of course they have more money to insure their containers get a lower dose of gamma radiation ;) <g>

Acros and HP5-FP4 don't exhibit the level of BF that Efke PL100 does. FWIW Efke 25 has a lower BF- So it makes me wonder. Any non staining developer should not produce a BF beyond .05 on any film "IMOP". My final judgement was taking unexposed sheets and developing them and still you will get higher than a .05BF with PL100. In truth I wanted to like the film given the cost.







Do you think the base fog would be lower if not rotary developed? Good to know about "tropical". It does get warm here on the OBX.


dee

I do have some old EFKE that does have base fog of .17

Jim Fitzgerald
11-Oct-2009, 19:40
I think its a inherent problem, though I could blame the manufacturer, I could also blame US customs. Any imported photo sensitive material is subject to scanning at port. When a container comes in, it is subject to scanning. Ilford and Fuji don't seem to have these issues with thier older formula emulsions, of course they have more money to insure their containers get a lower dose of gamma radiation ;) <g>

Acros and HP5-FP4 don't exhibit the level of BF that Efke PL100 does. FWIW Efke 25 has a lower BF- So it makes me wonder. Any non staining developer should not produce a BF beyond .05 on any film "IMOP". My final judgement was taking unexposed sheets and developing them and still you will get higher than a .05BF with PL100. In truth I wanted to like the film given the cost.

FWIW I just tray developed an 11x14 Efke 25 negative shot at ISO 25 and Developed in Pyrocat-HD 2:2:100 for 16 1/2 minutes and my B+F is .12. The negative has a density range of 2.03 and is suitable for carbon printing. I have always gotten a B+F around .12-.14 with this combo.

Jim

Mark Sawyer
12-Oct-2009, 00:18
I know this won't go over very well, but it's not so much the numbers on the base fog, as the feeling from the print. What might not be at all acceptable to one person might be perfect for another.

Base fog is about how an entire exposure/development/printing process works, especially in the shadows. Your using a modern multicoated plasmat may be entirely different from my using an uncoated triplet. Your using a frequent agitation in HC 110 may be entirely different from my stand development in HC 110. How it prints on your paper and developer may be very different from how it prints on my paper and developer. And the effect you want from your print may be very different from what I want from my print...

But we're constantly trying to put an overall formula to it all...

Sorry. I'll shut up and go away now...

Jim Fitzgerald
12-Oct-2009, 09:20
I know this won't go over very well, but it's not so much the numbers on the base fog, as the feeling from the print. What might not be at all acceptable to one person might be perfect for another.

Base fog is about how an entire exposure/development/printing process works, especially in the shadows. Your using a modern multicoated plasmat may be entirely different from my using an uncoated triplet. Your using a frequent agitation in HC 110 may be entirely different from my stand development in HC 110. How it prints on your paper and developer may be very different from how it prints on my paper and developer. And the effect you want from your print may be very different from what I want from my print...

But we're constantly trying to put an overall formula to it all...

Sorry. I'll shut up and go away now...

So very true!

Jim

Andrew O'Neill
12-Oct-2009, 10:36
Dee, stick with EI 64. You are going to want to have the separation in the shadows. Do all your other N testing at this EI.

Greg Blank
12-Oct-2009, 15:52
Typically stain brings that reading up by a good amount.

&

Yikes; I have to actually retract something! I just just looked at the article I wrote for View Camera on Efke 25. I got a FB+ fog of .07 with HC-110 and Efke 25. I also got .10 for D23 and .15 for PMK.

Acros went like this .05 HC110, .08 D23, .11 PMK

What I remember NOW if memory serves me, the PL100 did not achieve a high enough highlight density to offset the high base fog, where as PL25 was marginally acceptable.



FWIW I just tray developed an 11x14 Efke 25 negative shot at ISO 25 and Developed in Pyrocat-HD 2:2:100 for 16 1/2 minutes and my B+F is .12. The negative has a density range of 2.03 and is suitable for carbon printing. I have always gotten a B+F around .12-.14 with this combo.

Jim

Greg Blank
12-Oct-2009, 15:55
Hey your thoughts work for me too. Since I do projection printing that was a big factor in my decision not to use PL100. So don't shut up......it's important to contribute :)



I know this won't go over very well, but it's not so much the numbers on the base fog, as the feeling from the print. What might not be at all acceptable to one person might be perfect for another.

Base fog is about how an entire exposure/development/printing process works, especially in the shadows. Your using a modern multicoated plasmat may be entirely different from my using an uncoated triplet. Your using a frequent agitation in HC 110 may be entirely different from my stand development in HC 110. How it prints on your paper and developer may be very different from how it prints on my paper and developer. And the effect you want from your print may be very different from what I want from my print...

But we're constantly trying to put an overall formula to it all...

Sorry. I'll shut up and go away now...

Eric Rose
12-Oct-2009, 18:08
This is a from a neg I just shot a week ago. It's PL100 and I had an SBR of 13 for this image. I rated it at 20 asa and did the shortest semi-stand development I have ever done. I printed it on Agfa RC and it's pretty much a straight print. I have had no issues with BF being to high for projection printing. The developer was PyroCat-HD 1:1:100.

http://www.apug.org/gallery1/files/3/0/5/wildrose_brewery_001.jpg

Greg Blank
12-Oct-2009, 19:43
Very nice metallic sheen, I also like the subject which hints at my two hobbies. (Brewing beer and drinking it :^)

Though an effective asa of 20 is a longer way from the 100 than the film is supposed to be according to the manufacturer ;) And printing on RC would produce more contrast and deeper blacks more quickly typically than Fiber base papers. What contrast filter on the paper and what exposure time at what F/stop and how big is the print.

I say a normal print is a straight print at f/8 15-18 seconds at contrast grade 2.5 with no burning and dodging. But that's just me :)



This is a from a neg I just shot a week ago. It's PL100 and I had an SBR of 13 for this image. I rated it at 20 asa and did the shortest semi-stand development I have ever done. I printed it on Agfa RC and it's pretty much a straight print. I have had no issues with BF being to high for projection printing. The developer was PyroCat-HD 1:1:100.

http://www.apug.org/gallery1/files/3/0/5/wildrose_brewery_001.jpg

Eric Rose
12-Oct-2009, 20:40
I use the BTZS for determining exposure and development. For a normal scene I would say the real asa of the film is probably closer to 50 or maybe 64. Because of the extreme SBR of this scene I was forced to rate the film at 20 asa. As mentioned before I use PyroCat-HD after giving up on both rodinal and HC-110 for this film.

My idea of a straight print is the same as yours. This is a scan of an 8x10 done with my crappy $30 scanner.

I find that I can get pretty much the same value range with Kentmere FB and Ansco 130 developer. I use the Agfa RC for work prints.

Mark Sawyer
12-Oct-2009, 23:24
This is a from a neg I just shot a week ago. It's PL100 and I had an SBR of 13 for this image. I rated it at 20 asa and did the shortest semi-stand development I have ever done. I printed it on Agfa RC and it's pretty much a straight print. I have had no issues with BF being to high for projection printing. The developer was PyroCat-HD 1:1:100.


I think if your film incorporated a Belgian yeast, and you abandoned PyroCat HD for Cascade hops, your negatives could achieve a higher specific gravity...

Chris Jones
13-Oct-2009, 02:23
I did another still life today with Shanghai 100 and HC-110 1+50, 14 minutes at 20C, slow agitation for 10secs every two minutes in a HP Combi tank and the 10x8 proof prints seem to hold more shadow then seems on the neg and with a nice contrasty look without the difficulty normally associated with contrasty negs. (I use a Fujimoto condenser.)

Using dilutions of 1+50 and 1+100 seem to come close to matching Rodinal times, if that is any use and I rate the Shanghai 100 at 64 ASA.

For Efke 25 I will stay with Rodinal or ID11 since I couldn't see any advantage with HC-110, here.

d.s.
13-Oct-2009, 09:25
Hopefully I'll get to shoot some zone VIII and V sheets this afternoon after work. I love the light this time of year, I hate to waste it on testing but it is what it is.

Question: What effect if any does dilution of HC-110, (A,B,C,D,E,FG,H), have on the film other than the time to develop?

dee

Greg Blank
13-Oct-2009, 15:53
Some of those dilutions are specific to certain types of film Xray and graphic arts films (some no longer made). The E-F dilutions are nice because they increase the development time. Therefore a contraction of contrast can easily be made by decreasing development time. When doing a -10 or -20 percent contrast reduction you have a base development time beyond what would typically produce uneveness if you subtract time at say the B dilution. B dilution has been used by many school to insure that students get an image on the film - even when one to two stop errors are made in exposure.


Hopefully I'll get to shoot some zone VIII and V sheets this afternoon after work. I love the light this time of year, I hate to waste it on testing but it is what it is.

Question: What effect if any does dilution of HC-110, (A,B,C,D,E,FG,H), have on the film other than the time to develop?

dee

Chris Jones
14-Oct-2009, 17:10
I started with these two sites to get HC-110 to work my way.

http://www.jasonbrunner.com/hc110.html

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

The higher dilutions, 1+50 and 1+100, with minimal agitation allow the shadows to develop without burning out the highlights. I expose for the highlights and develop for the shadows so need to keep highlights in check and a HP Combi tank is ideal for this.

Looking at my proof prints again with a fresh eye, the contrast is more a feel then a quantity which can be measured. I don't use the zone system, but I wish not to start a flame war. (It wasn't taught here in Australia at my art school. We were expected to work out our own methods and come up with original ideas.)

d.s.
4-Nov-2009, 05:19
I finally got to develop the zone-v, and zone viii negs that I exposed in mid Oct. In the developing tank I also included a z-ii neg and another neg that is a photo I made while outside after shooting the three other exposures. These four made for a full Unicolor drum for developing. Development was on the Uniroller.
The temp was at 72 degrees so I used the time / temp formula to arrive at the new time. Everything else was done the same as for the zone-I test and the film speed that I had arrived at with that test,...64.

Densitometer Results minus base fog, (net):

Z-II neg... .17
Z-V nev... .62
Z-VIII neg. 1.00

I'm shooting for a ZVIII reading of 1.30 , So how much do you guy's think I should increase the developing time to reach that number? I was thinking 7.5%.

Also what is the .30 I need equal to in terms of f/stops? 1/3 ?; one stop?

thanks,

dee

Donald Miller
4-Nov-2009, 08:15
Log .30 is one stop. I personally would increase the development time by 15-20%.

d.s.
4-Nov-2009, 15:02
So am I now at normal minus 1 development? My Z-VIII is at Z-VII?
Just trying to wrap my head around this.

dee