Why Doesn't Somebody Make a Better Front End for a Graphic?

[Frank Petronio]

Maybe this qualifies as a dumb question, but after owning and using dozens of view cameras, I use a lowly $250 Crown Graphic for a lot of my work. And the more I use Crowns, the more I appreciate how smart the designers were. They're really underrated cameras.

So my dumb question is why doesn't some crafty metal-worker/engineer type develop a newly design for a replacement front standard with a full range of movements? It can't be that hard -- no worse than creating a standard for an Ebony or Canham. Something that could be sold in the mid-hundreds $ -- It'd be an easy user replacement -- just a few screws for the bellows frame.

Just a thought... it would be pretty great for beginners to get an inexpensive yet great camera.

[ic-racer]

Or even a cottage industry rebuilding and converting the whole camera into a modern field camera.

Problem is, 4x5 field cameras are relatively inexpensive right now. After shopping for an 8x10 all the 4x5s on the market, old and new seem like bargains.

[BradS]

but...why? It isn't really needed - is it? i mean...why would one need to use movements on a press camera?

[Mike1234]

Because he wants something more than a press camera but he likes everything else about the Graphic.

[jbenedict]

A B&J Press has full front movements. At least a couple of the ones I saw. There are always two or three of them on daBay.

[Wayne Crider]

Well there is a little bit of shift, but no swing, although a machinist could probably mill the bottom of the bracket and provide something. I believe the Super model has shift and swing if I remember my old one correctly. There is also a how-to floating around somewhere about adding back tilt movements if your interested in that.

The great thing about the Graphics is that their like old Chevy's in a do it yourself sort of way. I thought a long time ago about epoxy'ing a tripod adapter into the middle of the front cover to pickup back tilt; I just never had the need for it.

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah I know all the tricks like reversing the standard, or drilling a lensboard off center. Just BSing, but if some Gyro Gearloose made a hot-rodded front end it would be pretty slick.

[Glenn Thoreson]

Press cameras, especially the Speed and Crown Graphics were never meant to be view cameras. Though they're no different than any other camera, in that they're just a box to keep your dark in, they've performed their assigned tasks unfailingly and better than most. I like mine just the way they are. All of them. They're still my "reach for" camera.

[Kuzano]

There's an often overlooked lock for side shift (fairly aggressive) and swing (also significant), and there is a simple kludge for increasing the front tilt. I don't know if the Super front hardware fits in the tracks of the Crown or others, but I'd be surprised if not.

I am in the middle of a project right now. I have a Super which someone ripped the bellows out of and then went after the shutter and rangefinder parts.

So, I've stripped out all the rest of the parts from the body that had anything to do with rangefinder/electric shutter. It's boxed up right now to go to Fred Lustig in Reno for a new bellows (w/o the wiring for the front shutter). When that's done I MAY cut the half inch off the top where the rangefinder/shutter/battery stuff lived and flat top it with a plate.

So, I will have a Super reduced to 4 pounds or less, with the revolving back, considerable front movements and new bellows. It won't look great, but I may also replace the grey covering around the body with nice black covering after JB welding in all the holes.

Strictly GG viewing and tripod mounted.

[jbenedict]

A B&J Press has full front movements. At least a couple of the ones I saw. There are always two or three of them on daBay.

Sorry to be following up my own posts but....

Here's a link to period advertising for the B&J Press.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~lommen9/Burke/page3.html

It has a revolving back and a fairly wide set of front movements- both improvements over the Crown

[Kirk Fry]

And you can only get them in BLACK, just the way GOD wanted it! Don't mess with a good thing. Get a super graphic if you want front movements, but then you have to put the damn thing on a tripod. If you do that you might as well use a real view camera.
KFry

[IanG]

Not sure you're right that Crown Graphics were that well designed Frank.

I do use one for hand held work, nad have a couple of Speeds to, but the Front standard and total lack of tilt in portrait mode makes them clumsy. In comparison there were some far better alternatives available with far more movements etc.

But the Crown's and Speed's were meant to be simple, Press photographers didn't need movements, except for maybe an odd rare shot, the more complexity the harder to use quickly and instinctively.

Even in 1910 similar camera's were available with rotating backs, far more movements etc.

They did make a better front end for the Graphic but the camera had to evolve into the Super Graphic to take it.

Ian

[GPS]

Press cameras, especially the Speed and Crown Graphics were never meant to be view cameras.
...



...
But the Crown's and Speed's were meant to be simple, Press photographers didn't need movements, except for maybe an odd rare shot, the more complexity the harder to use quickly and instinctively.

...
They did make a better front end for the Graphic but the camera had to evolve into the Super Graphic to take it.

Ian

The given reasons are perfectly correct, IMO. The design intelligence of this camera is that it chose a niche on the market and filled it's needs. As soon as you try to make a do-it-all camera (which is also possible) you trade many advantages of one/main purpose cameras for this goal and you loose them - be it the speed, weight, simplicity etc.
The more you want from Graphic cameras that was not their original purpose the more you start to move to the Linhof realm - with all it means in weight, complexity, etc. issues.
It is exactly the other way round that you get highly advantageous camera designs - if you make one purpose cameras concentrated on one special task where the camera design excels. You loose the universality but you gain in the field intended for your use.
Graphic cameras were constructed for speedy press photography with different focal lengths with a range finder and a view finder use. The movements there are just to put a foot into a different field of view cameras - all other would put a weight and complexity on them which is exactly what a press camera doesn't need in the first place. The Super Graphic is a proof of it.

Personally, if I wanted to make Graphic cameras even better for their intended use (LF hand held speedy photography) I would go the opposite way - throwing away the standard movements (to hell with them!) to make it even lighter and quicker to use...:)

[Dan Fromm]

Um, about Speed and Crown Graphics' alleged movements. At least in 2x3s shift is often limited, as in eliminated completely, by the struts that hold the bed.

About the great advantages of the Super Graphic. Inner and outer bed rails are not linked, making focusing short lenses that make infinity on the inner rails much more difficult than it is with a Pacemaker Graphic. Win some, lose some, but I wonder what the Super's designers were thinking.

[Bosaiya]

There are a few sites out there devoted (at least in part) to this sort of thing. The Aero Ektar David Burnett folks have worked out a pretty swank modification to allow front swings - and thus tilts when held vertical. I'm pretty sure Jo Lommen does a modification.

[BradS]

Ok,

My head is cleared a little from last night.

If we were to take this request seriously...I have the following questions:

1) what would the demand be? How many folks would want a replacement front end with more movements for their Pacemaker Crown/Speed Graphic?

2) What additional movements and features would be required?

3) and which additional front movements and features would be "nice to have".

4) what would be a reasonable retail price?

[BrianShaw]

Ok,

My head is cleared a little from last night.

If we were to take this request seriously...I

Brad, not to be a nay-sayer... but I don't think your brain is fully cleared. The answers are obvious to me: not enough, the standard set, same as on the Super Graphic, and too much.

Frank seems to be thinking out loud. I'm not convinced that a serious question was being asked, or a serious answer was expected. The solution to not enough movements is, and always has been, to use the right camera. Like others, a Graphic is my "go to" camera for lots of applications... but not when movements are needed!

[BradS]

Brad, not to be a nay-sayer... but I don't think your brain is fully cleared. The answers are obvious to me: not enough, the standard set, same as on the Super Graphic, and too much.

Frank seems to be thinking out loud. I'm not convinced that a serious question was being asked, or a serious answer was expected. The solution to not enough movements is, and always has been, to use the right camera. Like others, a Graphic is my "go to" camera for lots of applications... but not when movements are needed!

Well, that was kinda what i was thinking too...see my initial response. However, I thought I'd post some of the real issues to get folks thinking about how this could never really be a viable product ...and thus, why it has never been done.

Then again, you never know. Maybe, there are 500 people who would pay $200 for a front standard that simply added front tilt and modest swing...maybe it could be done. My instinct is that there are fewer than 100 people who would actually pay more than about $50 for anything short of insane redesign....which would obviously be unfeasible.

For myself, I find the Crown Graphic to be about the best camera I own. It is rugged, compact, relatively light weight and sets up instantly. It makes great big negatives from which anybody with even modest darkroom skills can coax good results. It just gets the job done. If I'm gonna mount the camera on legs, I'll use a different camera. The crown/speeds are first and foremost hand held cameras....movements? we don't need no stinking movements!



Frank, if you want a Crown graphic with full front movements, get the Toyo 45CF field camera....it lacks the rangefinder...but, other than that....it has everything you desire and is still pretty rugged, compact and light weight. One could get an aux rangefinder and rig up a distance scale on the bed of the Toyo and be all set.

[Jim Ewins]

Frank, obviously you produce a lot of work that gives you satisfaction." [I] use a lowly $250 Crown Graphic for a lot of my work." What is the problem Frank?

[jbenedict]

Frank, if you want a Crown graphic with full front movements, get the Toyo 45CF field camera....it lacks the rangefinder...but, other than that....it has everything you desire and is still pretty rugged, compact and light weight. One could get an aux rangefinder and rig up a distance scale on the bed of the Toyo and be all set.

Hmmmmm.. I s'pose that could be done. The Kalart rangefinders were an accessory from the beginning (Although a Crown/Speed without a rangefinder is pretty rare.) Drill a hole through the side of the camera and mount the rangefinder on the side. The arm from the rangefinder could be fastened to the bed rail somehow and a Speed Graphic viewfinder could be used.

Seems like a lot of effort. As I said earlier, the B&J Press has a revolving back, substantial front movements, a rangefinder and are available. I think there are three of them on daBay right now.

[speedtrials]

I use a Crown for all my 4x5 stuff and I like Franks idea. My biggest complaint about the Crown is that when using lenses in the 90mm to 150mm range, the drop bed hinges are in the way of the front tilt knobs...at least for my big fingers.

[Glenn Thoreson]

Pacemaker Speeds and Crowns have lots of front tilt. You just gotta know how to use what your camera has to offer.

Downward tilt: Drop the bed and the standard will be pointing way down. Loosen the nuts and raise the front, then tilt it back to where you want it. Easy.

Backward tilt: Just loosen the nuts and tilt it back. No need to drop the bed on this one. Even easier.

The trick with tilting down is to make sure the standard is at a point on the rails where you can do this without damaging the rail hinges when focusing. All tilts only work in landscape orientation, though.
Anything requiring more than this, I'm not usually interested anyway. I have view cameras for such things if I can't resist. :D

[Mick Noordewier]

Well, I adore my Crown.

However, tilt is *not* practical in general. The lenses that I would like to use tilt on are my 75mm and 90mm. Unfortunately, these very lenses remain on the inner rail (or bridge the rails) so that it is not possible to drop the standard on the bed.

So the Crown remains a great travel camera, with a surprisingly accurate rangefinder (useful in bright sunlight). I carry a Rodenstock 75mm that closes in the camera, and 127mm and 203mm Ektars with the appropriate cams.

This equipment more than exceeds my photographic abilities.

-Mick

[BradS]

Hmmmmm.. I s'pose that could be done. The Kalart rangefinders were an accessory from the beginning (Although a Crown/Speed without a rangefinder is pretty rare.) Drill a hole through the side of the camera and mount the rangefinder on the side. The arm from the rangefinder could be fastened to the bed rail somehow and a Speed Graphic viewfinder could be used.

Seems like a lot of effort. As I said earlier, the B&J Press has a revolving back, substantial front movements, a rangefinder and are available. I think there are three of them on daBay right now.


I was thinking of an uncoupled rangefinder, something like the Fotoman rangefinder. Adding a Kalart rangefinder would be very interesting though...much more so if one could find a new Kalart and have it installed by a pro who could make it look good.

Actually...I like that idea alot! I wonder why Toyo didn't do that?

[bill kehoe]

at least you own the best camera graflex ever made (the crown). the super may have a wider range of movements but their locks suck and the front standard is so flimsy it flaps in any kind of breeze. of course, so did the wisner i used to own.

[neil poulsen]

How much front rise does the Super have? I thought that it was the same as other graphics.

[Drew Bedo]

View Camera magazine published two articles in maybe, 2005, on modifying the front standard for front swing and tilt. A friend of mine did it pretty easily with home-shop tools and a few minuts.

[Kirk Keyes]

I thought that was what the Linhof Technika was for?

[tim o'brien]

For myself, I find the Crown Graphic to be about the best camera I own. It is rugged, compact, relatively light weight and sets up instantly. It makes great big negatives from which anybody with even modest darkroom skills can coax good results. It just gets the job done. If I'm gonna mount the camera on legs, I'll use a different camera. The crown/speeds are first and foremost hand held cameras....movements? we don't need no stinking movements!



Brad,

Ya haven't gotten that V8 out in the field yet. While I love my Speed, the first time under the hood of a Deardorff, you'll understand the Graphics are just not in the same league.

I am generally happy with the movements my Pacemaker gives me, I don't try to do too much with it (like acute angle building photography).

tim in san jose

[BradS]

Brad,

Ya haven't gotten that V8 out in the field yet. While I love my Speed, the first time under the hood of a Deardorff, you'll understand the Graphics are just not in the same league.

I am generally happy with the movements my Pacemaker gives me, I don't try to do too much with it (like acute angle building photography).

tim in san jose

Sadly, no. I haven't done much with the Deardorff...other than discover that I really do need to do something about the bellows. :(

We're trying to move out of the I&T phase at work...been crazy busy. Too many insects (bugs!) to let it pass to V&V....<sigh>